Tein, JIC, GC - which best meets my needs

[jim97gst]

OK, I'm getting ready to make a coilover decision. I have a 97 GST. I'd like to start this out by saying that I don't know much about suspension tuning. I am taking a suspension class right now, so when I get whatever I'm getting, I'll be able to do the alignment myself, make adjustments and do some experimenting. I know what all the basic suspension parts are and what they do, but as far how to make them do what I want the car to do, I have very limited knowledge. Although I have read this whole thing: http://www.dsm.org/menu.epl?item=352, so I'm an expert now, right ? Here are my goals for the suspension:

1. Pretty comfortable- the car is a semi-daily driver (2-3 times per week to work+errands), and I don't want the ride to become so harsh that I dread driving the car on the street.

2. Performance - capable of being a pretty competitive autocross setup. I autocross about once per month in STX. I'm not really hard core about it, but I may be more so with a new suspension. I'm mainly there to have fun, but it would be more fun if I were winning. I may also try and do some open track days with the car eventually.

3. Ease of use- I've already said I don't know much about suspension tuning. I want someone else to do most of the up front work. Since I've never done a suspension upgrade, I don't really feel comfortable picking out a bunch of different pieces and putting them together. While I understand the theory, I definitely need to play with a suspension before I start to really understand how they work and how to tune them for my needs.

4. Cost- I'm willing to spend some money to get something I'll be happy with to meet goals 1-3. But I'm not going to go crazy either. The JICs are probably as expensive as I would ever go. So please don't suggest custom coilovers with remote reservoir bilsteins, etc...

Here is what I think I've narrowed my choices down to, from 1st to last, with pros and cons as I see them. I am open to other suggestions though.

Tein Flex
spring rates:10FR/6R

pros: I've heard nothing put praise all around. Everyone seems happy with the ride quality for a daily driver. Seems to have a good reputation for quality. Lots of adjustments. Reasonable price. Everything is matched and designed to work together. Is designed to be a good compromise between street/track. Sounds like a winner for my goals.

cons: Hasn't been around terribly long (at least in the US), so no one can give any really long term experience (like how long the dampers last and what kind of trouble/cost I have to go through to get them serviced). Doesn't seem to be recommended by anyone that does any sanctioned/competitive racing. Stock spring rates maybe a little soft in the rear to get the car to rotate? I guess I could buy a stiffer set of springs later, but apparently only from Tein. Plus the dampers are adjustable.

JIC FLTA2
spring rate: 9FR/7R (or whatever I want)

pros: I've heard nothing but praise for the performance. Seems to have a good reputation for quality. Lots of adjustments. Everything is matched and designed to work together. RRE uses these for their own race cars.

cons: Three most common adjectives I hear used to describe the ride are stiff, STIFF, and STIFF!!!. Although I don't totally understand why because the spring rates are so similar to the flex - I guess the damper valving is that much more harsh? $$$ - although I have seen them lately for as little $1500, so I'm actually considering them. Seems to have a reputation for being difficult to get setup just right. RRE charges $100 for an "initial setup" to save you a days work. I don't mind the time, but I worry I couldn't get it setup right even with several days. I guess this is true for all aftermarket suspensions, but I haven't heard it about the flex - but maybe this goes back to nobody really serious about racing using them.

GC/Koni
spring rate:whatever I want

pros: The main reason I'm really considering these is because DG as well as others who autocross competitively use and recommend them. http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98687 and http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34084 Although DG admits he has no experience with Tein or JIC. I can choose my own spring rates, but this is almost a con for me because I don't know what I'm doing. I've read several good reviews of them in general. More easily serviceable compared to Teins and JICs.

cons: Not really designed from the start to work together, although several others have done this combination and are happy. I have to buy stuff from 3 different companies (I would get some upper mounts if I choose this suspension) so if something goes wrong with one part, there maybe fingers pointing in 3 different directions. I've heard mixed reviews on the ride quality. I've heard of more than one person that went from this setup to a Tein flex or ss and found there to be an improvement. While they may have been doing something wrong, I'm sure I'm just as capable of making the same mistakes.

So there's my compilation of everything I've read on these suspensions. I'm kinda waiting for SCC to put The Tein flex on their project Civic and see what they think of them. Please give me some opinions. I would mainly like to hear from people who have owned or ridden in DSMs equipped with 1 or more of these choices (or something very similar). Please don't give any responses like "Tein ownz you!". I'd like to see something informative that I haven't read yet or thought of.

Also, I'm in Tucson, so if anybody in Tucson or Phoenix wants to give me a ride in their DSM with one of these suspensions, that would be awesome.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Maximuscr31]

go to turbo4wd.com and he gives a brief description of his jic coilovers and the handling. Just look under my trip to rre or it may be jic coilovers.... not sure

 

[igs]

1. and 2. on your list are direct contradictions.

3. Most aftermarket systems are pretty easy to adjust.

4. You won't need anything more expensive than JIC unless you are doing competitive track.

 

[jim97gst]

go to turbo4wd.com and he gives a brief description of his jic coilovers and the handling. Just look under my trip to rre or it may be jic coilovers.... not sure

Thanks. There's a lot of good information there. Seems like he was pretty happy with the ride.

1. and 2. on your list are direct contradictions.

I realize I can't have it ride like a Cadillac and handle like an Indy car, but I'm looking for a good compromise. I guess I want the car as firm as I can stand. Unfortunately I don't know how firm that is without actually riding in the car.

3. Most aftermarket systems are pretty easy to adjust.

I guess I phrased that wrong. I didn't mean how hard it is to go from 1" drop to 1.5" drop or set the damper from 8 to 10. I meant getting the system dialed in for optimal handling. The $100 for an "initial setup" of JICs by RRE kinda scares me away from them.
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/jicinfo.htm A quote from this is "You can tune it for pure magic or pure misery."

 

[igs]

Well, seeing how the only thing you can "tune" is the damping rate, you simply turn the dial until you are satisfied with the handling.

 

[jim97gst]

I emailed RRE about what exactly they did for the $100 setup. Here is the response I got:

"It takes us much less than a day to do it since we have done it 50+
times.
If you are doing it you may not get it close at all since you have
never
done. it. Even if a shop has set up suspension on lots of cars, they
have
not done this suspension on your car. We can save you a _lot_ of time
in set
up. That is what the $100 is for. Since the shock body length, spring
rate
and spring perch height and valving is all fully adjustable... you can
really screw your self into a hole. It makes the difference between
loving
them and hating them."

The Flex has all the same adjustments basically as the JIC, right? Wouldn't it be just as hard to get setup just right? Or do the flex's come setup better out of the box for each application?

 

[igs]

I have the FLEX and it's easy to set up. Just adjust the shock body to the ride height you want (this is done at install time) and play with the damping rate until you like the ride/handling. JIC is no different.

 

[jim97gst]

igs - What kind of racing do you do? Do you find your street ride acceptable? Do you have a significant other who finds the ride acceptable?

Hey, you should make a trip out to AZ sometime and give me a ride in your car. It's not that far is it ?

 

[igs]

I do autocross aka miniature racing. I personally prefer a very hard ride, even on the street. If it doesn't knock out your fillings it's not hard enough I say. When I had Eibach/Tokico it was complete garbage. The TEIN I have now is ok, still too soft imho.

My car is completely stripped. I've got carbon fiber instead of steel and lexan instead of glass. You probably won't like it.

 

[jim97gst]

igs - Any regrets buying the flex other than being too soft for you? Do you know anybody with JICs to make a comparison?

 

[wret]

Apparently Tein Flex does not always come with the same spring rate. Mine are very stiff. So stiff that if I jack the front to remove a wheel, the back tire leaves the ground at the same time! And all my shirts now have coffee stains.

 

[jim97gst]

wret - what setting are you using on the dampers?

 

[wret]

I have the bottom rings snugged up against the spring no more than hand tight and locked, figuring I'll get the maxium travel.

The dampers are on max soft.

I think I got the racing springs 'cause man do they corner.

Anyone know if you can add tender springs to these things?

Don't mean to hijack your thread Jim, and Teins are definately quality units, just know what springs you are getting if you decide to go with them.

 

[jim97gst]

Wret - The Tein web site shows no options for spring rates. They just show them being 10FR/6R. I actually emailed Tein about getting different spring rates down the road and here is the response:

"Yes, TEIN does offer replacement springs in various rates. You can
increase
spring rates by 2kgf/mm without revalving. The original setup is
designed
for balanced performance and comfort."

I wonder if having the rings snugged up against the springs like you say you have is causing you such a firm ride. Did you follow the recommended settings that Tein provides?

 

[igs]

Originally posted by wret
Apparently Tein Flex does not always come with the same spring rate. Mine are very stiff. So stiff that if I jack the front to remove a wheel, the back tire leaves the ground at the same time! And all my shirts now have coffee stains.

Mine does that too. The rear drops only half an inch when I jack up the car. It's the front that's too soft IMHO.

 

[igs]

Originally posted by jim97gst
igs - Any regrets buying the flex other than being too soft for you? Do you know anybody with JICs to make a comparison?

The only problem I have with the TEIN is the rear clunking. But I read this is normal for all coilovers. I don't know anyone with JIC.

 

[wret]

Thanks Jim.

My springs are actually a little looser than the recommended setup which I tried first. Any looser and the springs could move around when unloaded.

I e-mailed Tein also but didn't get a response.

 

[jim97gst]

The only problem I have with the TEIN is the rear clunking.

Clunking when? All the time or under certain conditions?

 

[igs]

Originally posted by jim97gst

Clunking when? All the time or under certain conditions?

Over small bumps.

 

[13secGST]

What is it that causes the clunk? What is hitting?

 

[igs]

I believe it's the pillowballs.

 

[13secGST]

Like...they aren't tightened enough...cause I have this problem with a clunk too...but its mainly when changing lanes on the freeway and I hit the little lane divider things...it sounds horrible. And I also have that other weird clunk noise that all DSMers seem to have regardless of suspension, that happens under certain acceleration and braking.

My current suspension is Tokico Blues (non-adjustable) and H&R race springs. I also thought it was my upper "pillowball" mounts but I tried torqueing the bolts...and they are all tight.

And now after time and hard racing, I think I blew out my rear bump stops...all of a sudden I'm getting slight oversteer instead of extreme understeer.

 

[Brett95GST]

Originally posted by 13secGST
Like...they aren't tightened enough...cause I have this problem with a clunk too...but its mainly when changing lanes on the freeway and I hit the little lane divider things...it sounds horrible. And I also have that other weird clunk noise that all DSMers seem to have regardless of suspension, that happens under certain acceleration and braking.

My current suspension is Tokico Blues (non-adjustable) and H&R race springs. I also thought it was my upper "pillowball" mounts but I tried torqueing the bolts...and they are all tight.

And now after time and hard racing, I think I blew out my rear bump stops...all of a sudden I'm getting slight oversteer instead of extreme understeer.

How do you blow out a bump stop??? I thought they were just rubbery inserts?

 

[ReebisTSI]

Hey guys, new to these forums and i just happened to have recently had a set of the flex dampers installed.

jim - as far as i know, if you dont buy a different spring, those (listed on Teins website) are the ones that come with the setup.

I also have noticed a clunking sound over small bumps, and i know there is nothing bad in the rear end because i had top drop $700 on new control arms,sway links and end links.

I run the dampers on 6 clicks right now, and i get bad understeer, i have read that if you soften up the front and tighten up the rear, you will get oversteer, but havent had the time to fully test it out (TOO MUCH HW!!).

 

[jim97gst]

Well, if anybody cares, I ended up going with the Tein Flex. I picked up a good used set. They're sitting in my garage right now and I'll be installing them soon. I'll probably start a new thread to get some advice on getting them installed and setup properly.

I appreciate everybody's opinions. I'm sure my other 2 options would have worked out great as well. I have a feeling it will be a long time (if ever) until I reach the limits of what my new suspension can do.