1G Squatting Solution (AWD Spring Options)

[BoostedBeaver]

With the addition of a Gopro camera, I have captured some footage of my car smoking the front right tire upon launch in my Talon. The cause of the issue seems to be weight transfer and the amount of lift that the front of the car is seeing on the launch. The car is equipped with what looks to be 22 year old shocks and springs.

I added some of the footage. The upload to photobucket was greatly degraded so the smoke is hard to make out in the first video. It comes off the bottom of the tire and blows past the camera. The second angle is a little high, but you can see the amount of lift and hear the wheel spin from this angle.

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I have since been searching for a solution to this issue. All the coilovers that I have seen will accept a vast majority of spring rates and could easily solve this issue, but what about a set of springs to fit the "stock" type of struts?? I could care less about dropping the car for looks and focused more on spring rates for manufactured springs to fit stock type struts.

I was only able to find two manufactures that still produce springs for a 1G AWD DSM. Those are Megan and Tein. Both have increased spring rates over the stock springs but the Megans drop the car 2 inches creating some possible bump steer issues and the Tein's are only slightly stiffer than the stock springs.

Is there any non-coilover setup that is worthwhile (money and effort) in properly correcting this issue???

I have no way to properly corner weight the car like Brian (Snowboarder714) but my goal is to decrease the amount of squat and increase the contact patch to decrease the 60' times on my ¼ mile pass. Furthermore I would love to decrease the amount of weight transfer and save as many of the drive train parts as I can.

The object of this thread is to compile a list of available springs as of 28 November 2012 for the 1G AWD platforms. It is also here to shed some light on their performance via experience with X manufacturer of shock. If there are no viable solutions without going to coilovers in your opinion, please list your best recommendation with supporting facts and experience. This is not in any way me trying to cheap out on the suspension of my car but instead find the best cost effective alternative to fix my squatting issue.

To view this cars transformation or any questions pertaining to its modifications, please check my signature or visit this detailed build thread that covers the life of my car. Thank you for taking the time to read this article and any input would be greatly appreciated.

Robert

 

[jmartinez1228]

This may help a little.

Springs:DSM Springs - DSMtuners.com

ShocksDSM Shocks - DSMtuners.com

Definitely more then just the two that you described.
I run a Eibach/KYB AGX setup on my car. It's a pretty popular setup. Some say it's good some say it's bad. All depends on how you drive. I've never squatted my car and I've launched pretty hard, but also broke some parts as well .

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Thank you for the links but a majority of those products have been discontinued. I know for sure that the H&R springs, Eibach Pro-Kits, and rear Koni Yellows for a 1G AWD have been discontinued.

One solution to the shock issue is to use rear 2G shocks as show in in this thread.

Another thing to note is that KYB GR-2's are meant to be stock replacements. I have no clue how long these would last with increased spring rates but I am willing to bet it would not be long. They are ideal for anything up to a 1in drop (from what I have read) but the two options that I know are available drop the car to much to use the GR-2's.

I will look over the other springs and report back with how many are found online.

Robert

 

[jmartinez1228]

Thank you for the links but a majority of those products have been discontinued. I know for sure that the H&R springs, Eibach Pro-Kits, and rear Koni Yellows for a 1G AWD have been discontinued.

One solution to the shock issue is to use rear 2G shocks as show in in this thread.

Another thing to note is that KYB GR-2's are meant to be stock replacements. I have no clue how long these would last with increased spring rates but I am willing to bet it would not be long. They are ideal for anything up to a 1in drop (from what I have read) but the two options that I know are available drop the car to much to use the GR-2's.

I will look over the other springs and report back with how many are found online.

Robert

Before I upgraded to the agx/eibach sportline I had the gr'2 on my car for about 2yrs with no issues. Was running the Eibach pro kit which is a 1" drop I believe.
But I've seen AGX's blow in less then a year from my buddies beating the crap out of their cars.
There aren't any new vendors making springs for our cars anymore. I may switch to the Tein next just to see if there is any difference from my sportlines.

But it really comes down to your driving style. If you are an aggressive driver then parts won't last very long wither they are aftermarket or oem.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

But I've seen AGX's blow in less then a year from my buddies beating the crap out of their cars.

AGX's will blow if you are running a drastically low spring such as the Megans no matter what driving conditions they are put under. The firmness that you choose with your "adjustment" knob also plays a role in how long they last. Not saying that anyone is in the wrong, but each shock has its limits.

If you are an aggressive driver then parts won't last very long wither they are aftermarket or oem.

I have to disagree with this comment and say that if the correct combo is in use (meaning you choose the right springs for the car without exceeding what the shock can handle) they will last their expected lifespan. These are wear parts and they all fail at some point, the key is staying within the limits of the shock valving.

Robert

 

[jmartinez1228]

AGX's will blow if you are running a drastically low spring such as the Megans no matter what driving conditions they are put under. The firmness that you choose with your "adjustment" knob also plays a role in how long they last. Not saying that anyone is in the wrong, but each shock has its limits.



I have to disagree with this comment and say that if the correct combo is in use (meaning you choose the right springs for the car without exceeding what the shock can handle) they will last their expected lifespan. These are wear parts and they all fail at some point, the key is staying within the limits of the shock valving.

Robert

If people thought more like you, we would have less people complaining about broken parts Unfortunately people don't go out and spend thousands of dollars on parts that they think will last forever.

 

[jtmcinder]

Decreasing squat will not decrease the amount of weight transfer and could actually make it worse. If the net effect on the height of the CG of the rear squat and front lift is to lower the CG, then the pitching of the car is helping to reduce weight transfer. If, in contrast, the net effect of the pitching is to raise the CG, then weight transfer is being increased.

Put another way, it's not the rear squat that's the problem. Squat is good, as it lowers the CG. The problem is entirely the rise of the nose.

Remember: pitch is the EFFECT of weight transfer; it's not the CAUSE. Focus entirely on reducing weight transfer and, then, keeping the front tires happy.

Or, just get a better center diff.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Decreasing squat will not decrease the amount of weight transfer and could actually make it worse. If the net effect on the height of the CG of the rear squat and front lift is to lower the CG, then the pitching of the car is helping to reduce weight transfer. If, in contrast, the net effect of the pitching is to raise the CG, then weight transfer is being increased.

I have read this half a dozen times but its still got me beat. CG does stand for Center of Gravity correct???

Put another way, it's not the rear squat that's the problem. Squat is good, as it lowers the CG. The problem is entirely the rise of the nose.

I was under the impression that the squat of the rear was the result of the extreme rise in the front. Correcting the squat with stiffer springs would aid in keeping the car stable but would increase the weight transfer since the CG would be higher... Correct?

Remember: pitch is the EFFECT of weight transfer; it's not the CAUSE. Focus entirely on reducing weight transfer and, then, keeping the front tires happy.

So weight transfer is the CAUSE which leads to a result (EFFECT) of pitch?? So by reducing the weight transfer I would reduce the effect (in this case the pitch)?? Did I understand that part correctly??

Or, just get a better center diff.

Sorry for my ignorance once again but is this the first solution that you suggest?? or just a way to get around the squat.

If I understand this correctly, I need to somehow keep the front end on the ground. My solution was to stiffen the rear while slightly lowering the car using shocks and springs. This would eliminate the squat allowing the tires to stay on the ground but from the above statement this is the wrong solution. Feel free to elaborate a little more at your earliest connivence so that my stick figure mind can understand the best solution.

FWIW: I added some of the footage to the OP. The upload to photobucket was greatly degraded so the smoke is hard to make out in the first video. It comes off the bottom of the tire and blows past the camera. The second angle is a little high, but you can see the amount of lift and hear the wheel spin from this angle.

Thank you so much for your input and sharing a bit of your knowledge.

Robert

 

[bastarddsm]

AGX's suck. They don't have nearly the low speed damping needed for a street car, and they have waaay to much high speed damping. Makes for a harsh ass suspension the wallows around. boo.


Wanna buy my AGX's and prokit?

 

[BoostedBeaver]

AGX's suck. They don't have nearly the low speed damping needed for a street car, and they have waaay to much high speed damping. Makes for a harsh ass suspension the wallows around. boo.


Wanna buy my AGX's and prokit?

At this point, I am not informed enough to make a purchase but your original quote is leading me away from the purchase.

Any solutions that you recommend??? I read where you posted this in another thread and thanks for the info.

Robert

 

[Tyeler18]

Decreasing squat will not decrease the amount of weight transfer and could actually make it worse. If the net effect on the height of the CG of the rear squat and front lift is to lower the CG, then the pitching of the car is helping to reduce weight transfer. If, in contrast, the net effect of the pitching is to raise the CG, then weight transfer is being increased.

Put another way, it's not the rear squat that's the problem. Squat is good, as it lowers the CG. The problem is entirely the rise of the nose.

Remember: pitch is the EFFECT of weight transfer; it's not the CAUSE. Focus entirely on reducing weight transfer and, then, keeping the front tires happy.

Or, just get a better center diff.

Now, I'm by no means a drag racer, I race roudy-bouts, but what I've always learned (including in my chassis fabrication class) is that squat is not what you want. Hence why a 4 link will actually LIFT the rear on a launch as oppose to lowering. Granted this is mainly on solid axle RWD's, but I still don't see how any form of squat is good for a launch. I do agree that a stiffer spring will make for a much worse launch and that weight transfer is the enemy, but I'm not sure how squat is at all good ESPECIALLY in an AWD. Any form of squat is going to shift weight off the front, but ideally you'd want no weight transfer (obviously) to maintain all 4 tires on the ground. Just looking for an explanation, like I said I'm no drag racer.

Edit: I suppose lift* isn't exactly the word I'm looking for, so much as it tries to shove the rear down. The lift is just the counter-reaction of the 4 link pushing down on the axle.

 

[EclipseOwner95]

I have Eibach Pro and AGX's and I couldn't be happier for what I need, I have the front set on 4 and the rear set on 8. It's a tad bit bouncy, but its far from unbearable.

When I took the car to the shootout in Ohio I turned the rear down to 4 and the ride quality was significantly better.

 

[jrohner]

Swap in Evo 8/9 struts and springs.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I have Eibach Pro and AGX's and I couldn't be happier for what I need, I have the front set on 4 and the rear set on 8. It's a tad bit bouncy, but its far from unbearable.

When I took the car to the shootout in Ohio I turned the rear down to 4 and the ride quality was significantly better.

Thank you for your input on that setup.

I am interested, how well do these fair at the strip with your 500+ HP car??

Robert

 

[EclipseOwner95]

Thank you for your input on that setup.

I am interested, how well do these fair at the strip with your 500+ HP car??

Robert

I haven't been to the track at this power level, but I hook well on the street on stock wheels with 225/50 g-force comp t/a's, and I'm sure I'll hook better at the track. I'm actually going to the drag strip on Saturday for a test and tune session. I'll post my results for sure.

 

[jtmcinder]

I'll set some time aside to write a longer reply, but, for now, yes, my suggestion is a new center diff. My near-stock Evo pitches like mad on a hard launch (because the springs are pretty soft, there's no anti-lift geometry in the front, and the rear anti-squat geometry isn't very good), but the center diff is so good that none of this matters.

 

[danl]

When I ran stock struts and springs I made limit chains for the front which worked well. Ran some mid 1.6's on 5 year old evolution wheels and tires. Went to set of those k sports and lowered it 3/4 inch and got rid of the limit straps but set the front shocks up to limit lift and ran some 1.58-1.60's this past year.

I think evolution shock/spring would be a nicely tuned combo and would work well if complimented with limit straps. The downside is they are bulky and heavy. Also not sure if a 26" tire would clear the front strut hat for the sick bastards that need a big slick.

 

[1qkfwd]

Gotta make sure the car isn't bottoming out the rear. I found (well for me at least) that the car needs a natural squat in the rear. Replacing my rear bushings in the rear helped slow down the speed of travel in the suspension. So in turn you'll want the front bushings in the front to help slow things up front.

I don't remember the exact spring rates but I run the GC coilovers with agx rears and with the rear set to about 5-6 the car doesn't bottom out and it netted me the best 60' times. The front was on a custom Koni setup.

You really don't want to much spring because when the car launches and squats hard you'll get a bounce back affect and can hurt 60' times.

I think evolution shock/spring would be a nicely tuned combo and would work well if complimented with limit straps. The downside is they are bulky and heavy. Also not sure if a 26" tire would clear the front strut hat for the sick bastards that need a big slick.

A 26" will clear the front with the right wheel. I had 26x8.5s on a 15x7 rota wheel. But I've also had 275-50-15 on a 15x9 weld wheel which cleared fine. 26s are a bit tall though if your trapping under 150

 

[danl]

On a stick car around 4" of squat is good to soak up the hit. This can be tuned with the shock settings. You can also bias the rear shocks and have someone watch either side of the car for tire smoke. Apply more dampening on the opposite rear corner of the front that is spinning.

Stick cars on street tires also tend to work best on a healthy vcd or cusco which isn't made anymore afaik. A single street disc works well for launching, but clutch weight hurts shifting ability.

The autos work ok with little rear squat and can work acceptably with a welded center diff even on street tires. That is how I run mine. Squat and lift is wasted energy that should be used to send the car forward. It also reduces car reaction time which matters if you want to have a good car at the tree.

This is what has worked well for me, but as always somebody has made a car work using compleatlt different principals.

 

[1qkfwd]

To find the best squat, I put a ziptie around each rear shock rod. Before I ran I would make sure the tie was at the bottom. The tie should be tight enough so when you launch it stays up where the suspension has compressed. My best 60' times where with it about an inch from the top.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I'll set some time aside to write a longer reply

I look forward to this.

but set the front shocks up to limit lift

Was this done by adjusting the dampening of the shocks???

Gotta make sure the car isn't bottoming out the rear. I found (well for me at least) that the car needs a natural squat in the rear. Replacing my rear bushings in the rear helped slow down the speed of travel in the suspension. So in turn you'll want the front bushings in the front to help slow things up front.

I will have to give the zip tie method a shot to check the travel. For my car in particular, I have replaced every bushing with a poly replacement, so the movement should be "slowed" equally in my case.

have someone watch either side of the car for tire smoke. Apply more dampening on the opposite rear corner of the front that is spinning.

The best friend I have for this is the gopro. It won't guess and can reply time after time what happened. Sadly, I have no way to adjust dampening at the moment but hopefully will come up with a solution at the conclusion of this thread.

This is what has worked well for me, but as always somebody has made a car work using compleatlt different principals.

I am thankful for your input and thank you for sharing what worked for you.

Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

Robert

 

[jtmcinder]

Do any of you drag-racers go with progressive rear springs to be able to soak up the hit (which is a great way to say it) and still stay off the bumpstops?

My current project on the Evo is trying to create highly progressive springs at both ends for running on gravel with jumps. OTS Group N stuff is $10k. That's not happening.

 

[danl]

To find the best squat, I put a ziptie around each rear shock rod. Before I ran I would make sure the tie was at the bottom. The tie should be tight enough so when you launch it stays up where the suspension has compressed. My best 60' times where with it about an inch from the top.

Thats a really good idea.

Do any of you drag-racers go with progressive rear springs to be able to soak up the hit (which is a great way to say it) and still stay off the bumpstops?

My current project on the Evo is trying to create highly progressive springs at both ends for running on gravel with jumps. OTS Group N stuff is $10k. That's not happening.

Drag racers in general run cheap and light componets. Neither of those two qualifiactions will work for you.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I switched from Gr-2 shocks and struts, and 20 year old GSX springs, to Tein springs with AGX shocks, and Koni struts. I can tell you that the ride quality/comfort is only slightly diminished (if any), but the handling improvements are significant. The reduced squat is like night and day with this setup. It makes the transition between straight line gear shifts a million times more linear. The increased spring rates make the car far more level/planted through the corners as well.

I leave my rears (AGXs) set to the softest setting which I think gives a softer ride than stock actually, and rarely experiment with tightening them up at the track. The Konis are setup differently though; by turning the knob one direction, you increase rebound dampening, while simultaneously decreasing compression dampening, and visa versa. There is no way to put rebound, and compression both at maximum or both a minimum like the AGXs do. I typically leave my Konis in the center.

I believe that much of the reason I don't get nearly as much squat, has to do with the front springs and struts preventing the excessive lift that I used to experience.

There was a week or so in between that I ran some cheap Sprint 2" lowering springs, and I promise you that you don't want that. The cheap springs had a severe bone jarring effect, and would bottom out the rear control arms on hard launches or dips in the road. Every tiny crack in the road made interior pieces loosen.

Here's a shot of me launching with 20 year old GSX springs, and 5ish year old Gr-2s that were still in good working order.

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And below is how it launches now:

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[jtmcinder]

Drag racers in general run cheap and light componets. Neither of those two qualifiactions will work for you.

Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that I'd put drag-racing stuff on my Evo. I shouldn't have even mentioned that part. The key question was whether drag-racers use highly progressive springs in the rear to be both soft and stay off the bump-stops.