Track and handeling gurus needed. What camber is best?

[jacobevan611]

I'm just wondering what kind of camber is ideal for the most grip possible in a 2g fwd. I want to keep the toe zeroed out because I just got tires and I can't afford new ones for a long time. Anyways do I want slightly negative all the way around say -1.5 or do I want more negative in the front? Or in the rear? Thanks in advance!

 

[snowborder714]

From everything I've read on here, you'll want around -2 to -2.5* up front, and somewhere around -1.5 to -2* in the rear. You can easily do a search for camber in this section (Handling) and find some good info.

Then as much caster up front as you can, if you can adjust yours.


Do you happen to know your spring rates? And what tires will you be using?

 

[jacobevan611]

That camber sounds great! I plan on gettting eibach sportlines soon because i want to be lower. My friend has them on his 2g fwd and without a camber kit he was at exactly 2 degrees in the front. I'll just set the back to around 1.5 via the washer and bolt mod. Heres a list of my suspension mods taken right off of my profile.

Suspension Modifications:
Tokico blue shocks| Tokico springs| DIY rear camber kit| RM racing front sway bar| RM racing rear sway bar| oem GSX rear lower control arms| Front upper strut bar| Powerslot slotted rotors| Porterfield R4S pads| 17 inch Konig Reign wheels| Dunlop direzza sport z1 starspecs| Bride reps|

As for tires I run the best: Dunlop direzza sport z1 starspecs

Also, I was unaware that the caster is adjsutable on our cars. How do you do it? Where is the adjusting point?

 

[snowborder714]

It is non-adjustable from the factory. Some aftermarket parts allow caster adjustment, but there are very few of them. I was just putting that in there just as a information bit, not necessarily applicable to you.

 

[jacobevan611]

Alright well thanks for the camber help. Do you know any other options besides sportlines that will get me that low. I don't have the money for a full coilover system right now. The only other springs that low that I know of are h and r race and I don't know if those are better or worse.

 

[EclipticalGS]

That camber sounds great! I plan on gettting eibach sportlines soon because i want to be lower. My friend has them on his 2g fwd and without a camber kit he was at exactly 2 degrees in the front. I'll just set the back to around 1.5 via the washer and bolt mod. Heres a list of my suspension mods taken right off of my profile.

Suspension Modifications:
Tokico blue shocks| Tokico springs| DIY rear camber kit| RM racing front sway bar| RM racing rear sway bar| oem GSX rear lower control arms| Front upper strut bar| Powerslot slotted rotors| Porterfield R4S pads| 17 inch Konig Reign wheels| Dunlop direzza sport z1 starspecs| Bride reps|

As for tires I run the best: Dunlop direzza sport z1 starspecs

Also, I was unaware that the caster is adjsutable on our cars. How do you do it? Where is the adjusting point?

If you can get your hands on some SPC forged uluminum upper control arms (which have adjustable ball joint on them), and maybe a RRE front tie-bar (if it fits your n/t), grab them.

For your camber tolerance, I'd say stick with what Snowboarder says. Thats what I'd want to run.

The springs I have are Eibach's. 1.75" which translated to 2" on my car, They are stiff and really good for street/track. Paired with Tokico Blue's and a poly bushing kit, you should see a lot more handling.

 

[snowborder714]

Are you looking to get the car as low as possible, or run the car at an optimal height for suspension and alignment settings?

Do you ever plan on going with a coilover system, and if so, do you have one in mind? Just trying to get an idea of how your planning/thinking goes so you don't spend more money than necessary.

 

[jacobevan611]

Is the rre the same concept as the tanabe? Will the difference be noticeable by just adding a front lower tie bar?

Are you looking to get the car as low as possible, or run the car at an optimal height for suspension and alignment settings?

Do you ever plan on going with a coilover system, and if so, do you have one in mind? Just trying to get an idea of how your planning/thinking goes so you don't spend more money than necessary.

To be honest I want my car pretty low. I hate wheel gap. I don't track to often but I drive spirited on back roads. i want a good combination of handling and looks. With a full coilover system would I be able to go "sporltine low" without compromising handling? Or how much will the sportline springs decrease handling (if any) over my tokicos? They are about an inch lower.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Is the rre the same concept as the tanabe? Will the difference be noticeable by just adding a front lower tie bar?

Well think about it..Our K-member does flex and twist. Ive heard good results from that front tie bar from various people that do autocross, track, etc.

The springs I would stay around would be Eibach, H&R (kind of expensive), Teins, and Megans if your desperate...

Whichever one of these springs fits where you want to sit height-wise, and a good spring rate.

Coilovers are better because you can independently adjust each corner. Being FWD you can say, drop your fronts 2" and rear 1.75". You can adjust the dampness of the strut to how soft/hard you want your ride.

Coilover set-ups definately play a big role in track, and even most cases drag also.

 

[jacobevan611]

I'll defiantely look into that tie bar. Anyways I will be ordering springs next. right now the only options I see I have are Eibach sportlines and Tanabe df210. I dug this up out of the tuners gallery. I want my car to have that much wheel gap. The guy in the picture is running tanabe df210. i was wondering if those are anygood or would sportlines be better. Thanks alot. Redside - DSMtuners Gallery

 

[Flash]

Can I be the first to say get a temperature gauge. Start with a baseline, take temperatures, try again. Depending on the tracks the degree of camber can vary from left to right. Almost all tracks will have more right than lefts or lefts than rights, different banking... Bottom line, get a temp probe and a decent baseline, and test.
Link: Racing Tire Temperature Pyrometers and Accessories

I will also suggest this Smart Camber gauge
SmartCamber Digital Caster / Camber Gauge

And check out the Smart Strings on their website. And if you look down by the guys leg in the rear of the car, yes that is a fishing reel they use. When you are done with the string just reel it up.

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Regarding the Sportline springs- from experience I never enjoyed the Sportline's, the car was too low, the springs are too soft. If you track the car then get the Pro kit or something more. I never look back and miss my old Sportline springs.

 

[jacobevan611]

Thanks flash! Great info! I've actually used a tire temp gauge before at the track day I went too. It's a very useful tool. Do you have any input on my above post?

 

[Flash]

Thanks flash! Great info! I've actually used a tire temp gauge before at the track day I went too. It's a very useful tool. Do you have any input on my above post?

I'll try to add more. EclipticalGS was correct about the benefits of coilovers. So I would say if you can swing it save for a good pair of coilovers, I would. Otherwise, stick with Eibach or H&R springs. With coilovers you can adjust each corner, each cars suspension will sag differently. I was amazed when I leveled out my car how each coilover can be different. So with that said coilovers will give you the advantage of being able to adjust the ride height properly for each corner. Just being able to do that should help handling considerably. With the proper tools and good coilovers you can really have a lot of fun setting up your car in a technical-nerdy-kind-of-way.
If you are tight on money and can't burn through tires, I would do consider more conservative camber values since it sounds like you also depend on the car to get around in but also have fun in.

 

[96 420a-t]

From what I know you want your drive tires to be slightly more positive than the non drives for acceleration purposes. I will be running -1.5* in the frontand in the neighborhood of -1.8* in the rear. Front toe at 0.0 and the rear toe at .1* toed out over spec.

 

[snowborder714]

Interesting as every road race/autox person on here that has posted about camber has their car setup the opposite regardless of drive. Do you have any more info/background on that statement?

 

[greengoblin]

Sportline springs for our cars are CRAP. I ran them and they are way to soft. You will be banging on the bump stops all the time.

 

[Flash]

Sportline springs for our cars are CRAP. I ran them and they are way to soft. You will be banging on the bump stops all the time.

I think we are limited in afford options (springs) to run. No other option but to step up to coilovers or make your own Koni setup and get custom spring rates to play around with.

 

[knochgoon24]

I think you'd drop more time by having a car that corners better. The traction can be made up with good tires and an LSD. I don't understand why you'd want less camber in the front otherwise. The car has to turn.

Maybe I just run tighter tracks.

 

[jacobevan611]

I have extremely good tires and an lsd is not an option. Now that I have figured out what camber to run I am just curious on how to lower my car further. I contacted eibach today and they said sportlines are progressive the fronts are 220-320 and the backs are 89-194. Are theses bad rates. If so does anyone know of any other springs that lower the car as low as the sportlines but have good rates? Thanks guys.

 

[snowborder714]

Wow those are really soft.

For reference, my Tein Flex coilovers are 560/340 (front/rear). I'm moving up to a 700/400 or so with my DG suspension. Most people when recommending spring rates for someone who wants good handling will suggest a 600-700 front rate and then about half of that for the rear, without going higher than 400-450, unless you have really wide tires.

 

[Flash]

You don't want Sportlines. But I think this is becoming more of an issue of appearance than it is performance. If you want a low look then get Sportlines. But for performance sake, they suck.

 

[jacobevan611]

Okay well I currently have the tokico springs and I called up tokico and they said the rates were 285 for the front and 160 for the rear. I am extremely happy with them. I called eibach yesterday and they said the sportlines are 220-320 in the front and 89-194 in the back. Which have better rates? Does that mean the sportliness are stiffer? I don't care how harsh the ride is as long as its not bouncy.

 

[96 420a-t]

my info is based off what i learned in my suspesion class that was put on by hunter engineering, the people that make the alignment machines. the main reason is for you need the high camber to corner correctly. but you also need the straight up and down for the acceleration. this is different for awd since all 4 tires are pushing the car. the less camber is less necesary. from what i have seen, now keep in mind i am no expert by any mean, most high end race cars, also rwd run their drive tires with less negative camber. now the only true way to tell is to take a temp gun to the track and get the tires hot and take measurements.

from what i was told the inside edge whould be approximately 15% warmer that the outer edge.now if you are not having traction probleams coming out of corners that you can run higher camber.

that is from my knowlegs of suspension workings, right or wrong its what i know and it works for me.

best of luck to you.

 

[snowborder714]

Okay well I currently have the tokico springs and I called up tokico and they said the rates were 285 for the front and 160 for the rear. I am extremely happy with them. I called eibach yesterday and they said the sportlines are 220-320 in the front and 89-194 in the back. Which have better rates? Does that mean the sportliness are stiffer? I don't care how harsh the ride is as long as its not bouncy.

The higher the number, the stiffer the spring. If you're happy with what you have now, then I'd stick to something around that spring rate. Once you start going up, the ride will definitely get rougher.

I agree with Grant. You're looking more for a set of springs that gives you a nice ride and a really low look over something that is a performance piece - which is perfectly fine. Stiff springs aren't for everyone.

my info is based off what i learned in my suspesion class that was put on by hunter engineering, the people that make the alignment machines.

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

 

[96 420a-t]

since mine is a daily driver i am right now running 0* in the front and 1.6* in the rear. I am also stock height as this is my dd and i like clearing speed bumps. :] Best way to tell is with a heat gun and a couple trips to the track.