The math behind the brakes.

[dwdsm]

I was considering all my braking options and the 3000gt brake swap caught my eye. I was also considering the powerslot option as well. Mathematically speaking what would be better? What formulas can I use to figure out braking force on each set up? Also from other threads that I've read the 3000gt swap has only been done on the front. It is not in my interest to nose dive the car around turns at local autox events so that may ax that option all together. Correct me if I'm wrong but the pad surface area of a 2g is about the same as the 3000gt pad surface area... If so wouldn't the calipers on the same size rotors have the same braking force?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Check these guys out:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/cgi-bin/brakes/cginews.pl?record=14

they also have their "toolbox" that has lots of "calculators" for figuring out brake bias, Dynamic Distribution, wheel fitment, ect...

 

[kingjust]

I was considering all my braking options and the 3000gt brake swap caught my eye. I was also considering the powerslot option as well. Mathematically speaking what would be better? What formulas can I use to figure out braking force on each set up? Also from other threads that I've read the 3000gt swap has only been done on the front. It is not in my interest to nose dive the car around turns at local autox events so that may ax that option all together. Correct me if I'm wrong but the pad surface area of a 2g is about the same as the 3000gt pad surface area... If so wouldn't the calipers on the same size rotors have the same breaking force?

Thanks,
Dave

Awesome, i'm doing the same thing. I have the calipers in a box on stand by. Now, for a tease for you guys wanting to do this mod, I have a friend who works at a metal machine shop. I gave him my idea and said that when I get the dimensions of the bracket, to give him a call and he will machine a piece from mild or stainless. It's going to be setup to used the evo 8 rotors which are about 3-5 mm bigger than the OE 3000gt rotors, so they should be great... with some SS lines, should be a kick ass kit! I'll let you all know the progress of it, and I would like to the know the numbers you get with the new calipers!

I apologize if you feel that I hijacked this thread, that wasn't the intention, just like sharing what i'm trying to do!!!

KJ

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Perhaps maybe make a seperate thread for this. I am VERY interested for someone to make some adapter brackets so I can bolt up some evo or 3kgt brakes up to my talon. If someone can find a local machine shop to make up 10-20 sets of brackets at a time, I'd be willing to buy a few.

 

[Zero Bar]

I was considering all my braking options and the 3000gt brake swap caught my eye. I was also considering the powerslot option as well. Mathematically speaking what would be better? What formulas can I use to figure out braking force on each set up? Also from other threads that I've read the 3000gt swap has only been done on the front. It is not in my interest to nose dive the car around turns at local autox events so that may ax that option all together. Correct me if I'm wrong but the pad surface area of a 2g is about the same as the 3000gt pad surface area... If so wouldn't the calipers on the same size rotors have the same breaking force?

Thanks,
Dave

Your car has basically the same brakes off of the SL 3000gt, that's what I have on my car. The VR4 brakes are larger. I can only speculate on what it would take to do the VR4 brakes but I've read it's pretty simple.

 

[97eclipseNT]

talonTSIdriver, i have a friend thats putting evo8 brakes on his 95 talon. from what he says the rears bolt right up and for the front you can get a knuckle from a japanese galant that will allow you to bolt everything up. the only problem is is the part# for that knuckle is referenced to the usdm galant even though its a different part altogether. i believed he talked to dentsport garage and they were able to get the knuckle. the only disadvantage is that its a little bit pricey.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

yeah, i read a lot about the evo brakes, and picking up a jdm 99 galant knuckle for the fronts and after that, its all direct bolt on other than the heat shields. I think I am going to look into doing the 3kgt vr4 calibers with the audi a4 rotors. I have read about a few people doing that, and a few have done a write-up, but never a REAL follow-up on how well they perform. So I think I am going to do a very detailed write-up with LOTS of pictures, and even try and see if I can get a machine shop to fab up 10-20 adapter brackets for the calibers.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

With all the money and research your doing why not go with a TCE wilwood setup? MUCH lighter, and he will work with you, plus you dont have to worry about the seals in the 3000gt calipers taking a shit, which is very common. I love that I dont have to worry about seals anymore, I daily drive my car, just keep the seals clean before putting them back in for new pads and they should last a long time. I had a whole evo8 setup I was going to put in, but whn I saw a wilwood kit and felt how heavy compared to the evo setup, there was no question in my mind. Yeah they arent as bling, but are you after looks or performance.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I am all for performance, if you knew me you'd know that

I know the TCE brake kits are the best (proven) brake setup for our cars that is offered without going with something that is complete overkill. But the 3kgt vr4 brakes should be comparable if properly installed right with a good set of pads, and should cost half the price. I am not trying to cheap my way through racing, as we all know that is a definite no-no, but I can not find a real downside of the 3kgt vr4 brakes other than the pita that is might be to fab up such brake setup.

Perhaps I should create another thread on this topic, I feel like a hyjacker!

 

[dwdsm]

swapping to the evo setup is to pricey with having to buy the knuckles and all. I would buy a kit before I did that. Unless I could find the calipers for alot less than they are going for on ebay.Do the dual pistons bolt up in the 3000gt vr4 swap?

 

[talonTSIDriver]

your right about the evo setup being too pricey, knucks are about $400-600 alone. so unless you picked up the rotors for DIRT cheap, you'd be at about the same price as the TCE kits. However, the 3kGT VR4 setup could be fairly inexpensive. I have been watching ebay auctions and the vr4 calibers go for about $100-200, buy some of the A4 rotors new (eBay) for $200-300, and then have a machinest make the adapters for $50-150 for the pair.

I am very curious to see how a properly setup 3kgt VR4 brakes would perform.

I am starting a new thread for this.

 

[dwdsm]

Ooops I miss typed that last part. Do the rears bolt up? If not what do others do so that the car doesn't nose dive? Isn't this undesirable?
Wouldn't the distribution be thrown way off from the factory 75/25 braking bias. What's an ideal bias for an awd 2g?

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I am not 100% sure but I thought i read someplace that the 3kgt vr4 rear brake calibers bolt right up, not sure. But I do know the EVO's rear calibers bolt right up.

Many people just upgrade the front brakes, and for the rears, a good set of pads and maybe an adjustable brake bias would do the trick.

Also a little tip, stay straight and brake hard, then turn. And with our cars you can basically floor it going into the turn to start spooling the turbo. If you get really good, try left-foot braking so you can keep your right foot on the throttle so you can leave the turn at FULL BOOST!

 

[dwdsm]

Hey thanks for the tip! I may go with the power slot kit in the rear $200 and vr4's in the front, hopefully doable for around $200. I run an evo offset on my car already so clearance won't be a problem. If I can pull it off I'll have a big brake kit for around $400 plus so hawk pads.. Sounds like a plan.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

I am all for performance, if you knew me you'd know that

I know the TCE brake kits are the best (proven) brake setup for our cars that is offered without going with something that is complete overkill. But the 3kgt vr4 brakes should be comparable if properly installed right with a good set of pads, and should cost half the price. I am not trying to cheap my way through racing, as we all know that is a definite no-no, but I can not find a real downside of the 3kgt vr4 brakes other than the pita that is might be to fab up such brake setup.

Perhaps I should create another thread on this topic, I feel like a hyjacker!

But the 3kgt are not. The calipers hold heat in more, they are heavier, the rotors are one piece equaling heavy and AGAIN hold heat in more, AND your gonna have to custom fab brackets.

So if you wanted them semi-equal, you have to add in price for 2-piece rotors to that 3kgt setup, go ahead price that up, unfortunately youll start to realize WHY the wilwoods cost the way they do. And then still....the calipers suck and youll be rebuilding them if your actually doing some good braking.


BTW- this is my honest opinion, and "suck" and "shitty" are all subjective.


Good luck deciding, give us a review if you decide to go the "shitty" route. hehe just messing let us know a review tho!

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I just want to find the right brakes that work well. See other thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=151300446#post151300446

 

[dwdsm]

But the 3kgt are not. The calipers hold heat in more, they are heavier, the rotors are one piece equaling heavy and AGAIN hold heat in more, AND your gonna have to custom fab brackets.

So if you wanted them semi-equal, you have to add in price for 2-piece rotors to that 3kgt setup, go ahead price that up, unfortunately youll start to realize WHY the wilwoods cost the way they do. And then still....the calipers suck and youll be rebuilding them if your actually doing some good braking.


BTW- this is my honest opinion, and "suck" and "shitty" are all subjective.


Good luck deciding, give us a review if you decide to go the "shitty" route. hehe just messing let us know a review tho!

Didn't you pay over 2G's for your wilwood set up? (front and rear so the bias isn't totally up front) I would like to get it but that's a ton of cash.

 

[dwdsm]

Hmmm I may posibly do the wilwods up front and the powerslot 11.5 disc in the rear with some hawk pads. That would put me at 1,400 for the entire kit...

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Hmmm I may posibly do the wilwods up front and the powerslot 11.5 disc in the rear with some hawk pads. That would put me at 1,400 for the entire kit...

Thats exaclty what I would do, I think with a GOOD set of pads in the rear, and adjust the brake bais a little, you should be just fine. I am lucky enough to have the early 95 rear vented rotors which allow a lot more cooling than the very thin non-vented rear rotors.

 

[kingjust]

Sorry it's been a minute since I posted but here is the update. I have a template for some brackets that my boy is going to waterjet out or CNC, which ever... either way, i'm focused on using these with evo 8 rotors which are huge! I'll let you guys know more when I get more info!

Peace!

KJ

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Sorry it's been a minute since I posted but here is the update. I have a template for some brackets that my boy is going to waterjet out or CNC, which ever... either way, i'm focused on using these with evo 8 rotors which are huge! I'll let you guys know more when I get more info!

Peace!

KJ

If you’re going to fab up a bracket, you should just go with the 3kgt VR4 4-piston calipers. They are much lighter than the EVO calipers and its very important to keep your unsprung weight as light as possible.

 

[Flash]

If you’re going to fab up a bracket, you should just go with the 3kgt VR4 4-piston calipers. They are much lighter than the EVO calipers and its very important to keep your unsprung weight as light as possible.

It might make sense to make it for the Evo brakes since they are easier to find then the VR4 brakes. Also, you MIGHT be able to run upgraded brakes made for an Evo on our cars like Alcon, Endless, etc...

 

[kingjust]

If you’re going to fab up a bracket, you should just go with the 3kgt VR4 4-piston calipers. They are much lighter than the EVO calipers and its very important to keep your unsprung weight as light as possible.

Way ahead of you brother... since october, i've had a pair and they have been sitting in a box waiting to get sand blasted! Oh yeah, a cheap ass rebuild kit from me to you!!!
Caliper Pistons Stock OEM 3000GT/Steatlh - Mitsubishi 3000GT / Dodge Stealth

I should have the brackets soon, I will take pics when they get in so stay tuned!

KJ