Destroyed Valves???

[dsm-junkie]

Hey guys! Came across a minor setback!! I was assembling my engine and finally moved on to the tedious timing belt job. I aligned my cam gears up nice and even, then I decided to add tension without lining up the crankshaft with its timing mark! ( I do not have balance shafts) So I thought I was done and tested it out by spinning the whole system. While I was spinning the crank I was surprised by a hard stop after turning it about half a revolution. So I did not just want to redo the timing belt right and not check if I damaged something. I took off the head and checked the valves out! Almost all intake valves are not seated properly. I could see light shining through when looking into the ports! About half of the exhaust valves are the same way! One pair is extremely sticking out! Could that small turn of the crank have bent my valves??? The head just had new stem seals inserted! Heres some pics of how the valves are currently sitting! I did just purchase a spring compressor and will be taking them out! Any help is appreciated! Thanks guys!!! :hell yeah:


Heres a pic of the worst pair of valves!




Heres what you see when looking into the port of that same pair of valves!




And here are the rest of the valves! Some do also let some light in! I also sprayed brake cleaner into some of the ports and most of them leak!

[WES_393]

Before you tear the head completely apart, take the lifters/cams out and see if the valves close. Turn the head on it's side and pour water in the ports to see if they leak. If they seal with no cams or lifters, you may just need to collapse the lifters before installing them. I highly doubt you bent them from turning the crank, especially since you stopped right when resistance was felt. And even of you did, it wouldn't be on all 4 cylinders.

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by WES_393

Before you tear the head completely apart, take the lifters/cams out and see if the valves close. Turn the head on it's side and pour water in the ports to see if they leak. If they seal with no cams or lifters, you may just need to collapse the lifters before installing them. I highly doubt you bent them from turning the crank, especially since you stopped right when resistance was felt. And even of you did, it wouldn't be on all 4 cylinders.

Great!!! I will definitely try it as soon as I get home!! You just made me feel a lot better about the situation!!!

[WES_393]

Definitely post the results. It might not be a bad time to install some revised lifters as well. Lifter tick will drive you absolutely insane.

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by WES_393

Definitely post the results. It might not be a bad time to install some revised lifters as well. Lifter tick will drive you absolutely insane.

I will for sure!!! I did the oil port mod #1 and #2! That's a great idea though!!!

[DSM's 4 life]

if your camshafts are installed your valves should be open spin your camshaft,it the valve does not move then i would start to get concerned

[WES_393]

if your camshafts are installed your valves should be open

Um, no. Valves should be air tight until the lobes hit them. Otherwise you would have no compression.

[NHerron]

That sealing surface looks horrible, make sure it's getting cleaned up and checked for straight

+1 to everything WES has mentioned
If the lobe is completely off it's rocker () the corresponding valve should be completely closed, no light should pass and no water should pass for at least 30 minutes

[bcjjones]

+1 on cleaning up that mating surface and having it checked.

I've always used wd-40 instead of water, just because im paranoid about rust

[bmoha7321]

So when you put this thing back together you're going to time both cams and the crankshaft right?

[cyclonekid77]

Here is how you trash a set of valves...


You may just need to bleed your lifters.

[dsm-junkie]

Well guys taking off the lifters actually pulled them back in!!! I also did a leak test and only a couple valves let water through! Could this be from a bent valve or just a seal that needs to be replaced??? The surface looks horrible because of the brand new oem head gasket that got trashed while taking the head off! I will clean it for sure!! Thanks for all the help thus far guys!!

The following valves leaked water!

Cylinder #2 both exhaust valves
Cylinder #3 one intake valve
Cylinder #4 one intake valve

Other than that all other valves held the water in!

[NHerron]

How long before they leaked? And you pulled off all the roller rockers/lifters(HLA's) for the test right?

[WES_393]

How much water? A drop or two every now and then? Or a nice stream running down the head? They could use some resurfacing or maybe just a good cleaning between the valve and seat.

Glad it worked out though! Those pesky lifters can cause all sorts of problems. Find yourself a very small drill bit, toothpick, or even a stretched out paperclip and push it into the hole in the lifter while you squeeze it. This should collapse the lifter completely so that when you install them, they won't hold the valves open. They will pump up on their own (and to the correct level) when you start the car.

Also, I just noticed the exhaust valves say "Made in Japan" and might even be a bit oversized. Did you ever install aftermarket valves?

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by NHerron

How long before they leaked? And you pulled off all the roller rockers/lifters(HLA's) for the test right?

2 out of 4 leaking valves leaked heavy! Streamed out and drained in about 2-3 mins. The other 2 valves let off slow beads and didnt really let that much water out! I did take off the cams, rollers, and lifters before the test!

Originally Posted by WES_393

How much water? A drop or two every now and then? Or a nice stream running down the head? They could use some resurfacing or maybe just a good cleaning between the valve and seat.

Glad it worked out though! Those pesky lifters can cause all sorts of problems. Find yourself a very small drill bit, toothpick, or even a stretched out paperclip and push it into the hole in the lifter while you squeeze it. This should collapse the lifter completely so that when you install them, they won't hold the valves open. They will pump up on their own (and to the correct level) when you start the car.

Also, I just noticed the exhaust valves say "Made in Japan" and might even be a bit oversized. Did you ever install aftermarket valves?

2 of the valves leaked heavy streams! The other 2 not so much water but still leaked a bit! All the other valves were fine! No leaks! I actually have no idea about the aftermarket valves??? Maybe the previous owner just replaced them with oem spec valves!!

[BogusSVO]

The Intake are some replacement valves, as far as oe spec or not I can not say, but for turbo use, I would not trust them, even at stock boost levels.

Personally, if it was mine, I would get a full set of Engnbldr Stainless valves and install them.

How to clean a Head Gasket Surface

Head gasket Repair- How to clean the block deck with the pistons installed.

How to lap a valve

How To Fluid Test a 4G63 Cylinder Head

Also what springs are on the head? If stock... replace them.

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by BogusSVO

The Intake are some replacement valves, as far as oe spec or not I can not say, but for turbo use, I would not trust them, even at stock boost levels.

Personally, if it was mine, I would get a full set of Engnbldr Stainless valves and install them.

How to clean a Head Gasket Surface

Head gasket Repair- How to clean the block deck with the pistons installed.

How to lap a valve

How To Fluid Test a 4G63 Cylinder Head

Also what springs are on the head? If stock... replace them.

Thanks Bogus! As always your a great contributor to the DSM community!! As of tight now my funds arent exactly in line to purchase engnbldr Stainless valves! I could possibly go with new OEM valves! My springs im guessing are OEM as well! I will look into replacing those as well!!

Well guys I got a set of OEM valves that were fresh off a running head for only $25 shipped! I'm hoping that installing these new valves will do the trick and seal the leaks! I really hope I don't have to end up getting a valve job!!!

[dsm-junkie]

Well guys! I tried another test on the valves and none of the exhaust valves leaked but 2 of the intake valves still leak! So what I'm gonna do is just replace all the intake valves with OEM valves! My exhaust valves are all OEM so thats good! I just hope throwing in all these OEM intake valves to the job!!

[NHerron]

You could try lapping them in properly. Or talking to a machinist about it at least...

[dsm-junkie]

Has anyone ever used a Lisle 36200 to install valve springs? I used it to remove the springs and it worked like a champ! Then I tried to install them and when the spring would compress the clips that go on the valves would not catch! It was almost like the spring wasn't compressed enough to get push the valve through! I tried hitting lightly with a rubber mallet and it still didn't work! I should of just bought the one specifically for our heads

[NHerron]

Check this bad boy out:
EuroExport, Inc. Online Parts Store

If interested, there's lots of threads here on that very tool

Another alternative that works great is this:
Inexpensive Valve Spring Compressor for 4G63 Engine

Although I didn't want to waste a good c clamp so I duck taped (like double sided tape) the socket to the clamp. I heard of people using an oxygen sensor instead so you wouldn't need to cut up a good socket.

Also, use padding where the clamp contacts the valve face. I accidentally made an indentation near the sealing surface

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by NHerron

Check this bad boy out:
EuroExport, Inc. Online Parts Store

If interested, there's lots of threads here on that very tool

Another alternative that works great is this:
Inexpensive Valve Spring Compressor for 4G63 Engine

Although I didn't want to waste a good c clamp so I duct taped (like double sided tape) the socket to the clamp. I heard of people using an oxygen sensor instead so you wouldn't need to cut up a good socket.

Also, use padding where the clamp contacts the valve face. I accidentally made an indentation near the sealing surface

Great! Thanks! I think I'm gonna return this valve spring tool and go pick up an 8 inch c-clamp and oxygen socket! Thanks for the help!

[bastarddsm]

Like bogus said I wouldn't run them valves, The writing on the heads look like they could be hot spots that cause detonation.

[YZFR1]

I thought i had an issue with the valves not sealing right after i did the water test on the head and had small droplets forming on some of the valves after a few minutes. However, the water level in the runners didn't seem to diminish with time. Took the head back to the machine shop that did my valve job, they ran a test on it and came up with something like 20-25% air seal, which is as good as it's going to get, according to them.

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by bastarddsm

Like bogus said I wouldn't run them valves, The writing on the heads look like they could be hot spots that cause detonation.

Yeah! I'm gonna replace the intake valves with OEM valves!

Originally Posted by YZFR1

I thought i had an issue with the valves not sealing right after i did the water test on the head and had small droplets forming on some of the valves after a few minutes. However, the water level in the runners didn't seem to diminish with time. Took the head back to the machine shop that did my valve job, they ran a test on it and came up with something like 20-25% air seal, which is as good as it's going to get, according to them.

If thats accurate information I feel a lot better about my situation!

[NHerron]

If (tiny or small) droplets form in the matter of minutes and they say "that's the best it'll get" after cutting seats and matching the valves, sorry they are mistaken. I would find another machine shop to be honest

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by NHerron

If (tiny or small) droplets form in the matter of minutes and they say "that's the best it'll get" after cutting seats and matching the valves, sorry they are mistaken. I wold find another machine shop to be honest

Kind of was thinking the same thing!

[YZFR1]

Maybe BogusSVO could chim in and let us know what is an acceptable air leak seal on the valves? It would be highly appreciated!

[bryanwheat]

When i do valves i vacuum test them and am able to get them to hold vacuum pressure for at least 20 seconds and it will slowly bleed off. Getting this to seal like this water will never leak thru any of them.

[YZFR1]

Yeah, i think that's what they did. I actually saw them doing it, they hooked up this soft plate up to the runners to seal them in and started to pull air through it. Not sure about how many seconds they held it but they had a gauge on it that read something like 20-25% vacuum on all runners.

I made a post about it in the "How To Fluid Test a 4G63 Cylinder Head" thread but noone ever got back to me. I'm getting decent leak down test numbers though, on an engine that is not fully brocken in, yet. This does concern me a bit though, as maybe my compression and leak down numbers should be higher.