New MAF Idea

[MNGSX]

http://www.pro-flow.com/Product pages/univer_plus.htm

The ford TB's and other swaps I've seen got me thinking.

You can wire any 0-5v hotwire to EMS it's just got to be wired to a different terminal than the vortex sensor.

I'm going to pick these guys brains today. That thing looks nice.

 

[MNGSX]

I got a hold of them. That model is the best for blow thru since it was designed with it in mind. It samples air at locations 360 degrees around the tube. It reads better at all flow levels this way and won't mis count at low flow like large meters with a single sensor port.

They are used to calibrating these things to match injectors for ford stock ECU's or selling them for use with their translator for DSM ecus. Wiring direct to EMS was a new one for them.

 

[kpt4321]

Why can't you just use a regular, 100 dollar hotwire MAF? Is 1000 CFM of flow not enough for you?



....Kyle T.

 

[MNGSX]

Eventually I'll be pushing beyond what a std maf can read.

It is more accurate and specifically, designed, calibrated and tested to be a dedicated blow thru MAF.

I could just as easily run speed density but a high accuracy MAF that does'nt read weak at low flow and is very acccurate at high flow is much better.

Even if a 1000cfm is'nt really overrun it still cannot maintain as high degree of accuracy across the flow range.

So alot of insurance having something that was purpose built as a high performance blow thru for $200 over running a factory that way is worth it in the grand scheme of things. $200 is less than 1/10 of what most people have in their motors. I feel better not counting on a cheaper MAF to tell me the truth when I'm running it the way it was'nt designed to run.

 

[loreak]

i would like to see your t25 outflow a 1000cfm mas =P

 

[kpt4321]

The 3.5 inch MAF can flow enough air to make 700+ horsepower. I'd like to see your car make that much, even after you buy all the stuf on your imaginary parts list.

But, you know what? If you want to spend 300 bucks on a MAF that isn't really any better than a 100 dollar one, go for it. I really don't care, and if I try to convince you to do otherwise, you will get very angry and start yelling like a child again.

....Kyle T.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by kpt4321
The 3.5 inch MAF can flow enough air to make 700+ horsepower. I'd like to see your car make that much, even after you buy all the stuf on your imaginary parts list.

But, you know what? If you want to spend 300 bucks on a MAF that isn't really any better than a 100 dollar one, go for it. I really don't care, and if I try to convince you to do otherwise, you will get very angry and start yelling like a child again.

....Kyle T.

Do you get a calibration sheet for that sensor where it was tested and calibrated for blow thru operation?

You know this place does have it's jack asses.

Lets see that 14b even outflow a 1g maf.


The T25 is on obviosly on it's way out.

I suppose you would rather bolt on a turbo and overrun the sensor before you'd even plan on upgrading it.

Or maybe you put a 20g a month before you uprgade injectors but crank up the boost controll anyway.

I'm not the one name calling or dubing anyone I don't know's plans or parts lists "imaginary"

Maybe your "little list" is immaginary.

16g, 550's, SAFC, etc[/QUOTE}

16g is such a big jump from a 14b

550's oh yeah lots of fuel there

SAFC oh yeah piggybacks really can keep up with an EMS system.


Maybe you are just imagining I actually care enough about what you think for you to respond with your unprovoked thoughtless bashing based on parts you yourself have never used?

I was looking for someone who can thoughtfully discuss MAF sensors based on facts they have to support it.


If you have accurate documentation of how a GM MAF peforms in blow thru I MAY pay attention.


Maybe a data log from blow thru showing consistent stable output from the sensor. Like I said science not hearsay.

You can disagree like an adult and say.. Here is a proof that a GM MAF works more than adequately in blow thru up to X power level. So you don't need that. Like "I know this guy here is a datalog from a dyno run"


No instead you just open right up bashing someone who has never bashed you or flamed you for anything.

Every week my "immaginary" list becomes more and more real high quality parts. When I have enough matched components for them to work togetter they will go on.

If people I don't even know have problems and seek help on this board I go out of my way to chip in and help.

I guess people are just a little more pleasant where I come from.


Oh and loreak Kyle may be making a bigger ass of himself but why is it that his mod list is allot shorter as is his 14b ET than what yours is on a 20g?

 

[kpt4321]

You're a riot.

Want me to prove my point? I do not have an actual data log from a test, but I can give you this:

http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000033

Excerpt: "The 3" sensor can move quite a bit of air with little pressure drop, more than most turbos put out. The 3.5" sensor will move right at 1000CFM before drop becomes an issue."

Why is it that you need a data log to prove that a GM MAF is worthy, but you'll simply take the word of the guys at pro-flow.com? Why don't you need test data for their MAF? Because it costs more money, it must be better?

Yes, a 14b can outflow a 1g MAF, but how is that related to this discussion at all? We are comparing two different hotwire MAF's for use on modified (and possibly highly modified) cars, this 14b/1g MAF crap is totally irrelevant. I don't even see the point you were trying to prove.

Why is it that me saying "why do you need to spend 300 dollars, when a 100 dollar part has been proven many many times to work perfectly" is not being an adult? I do not have an actual graph, I just have the knowledge that hundreds of people run these things, and they work great. I guess that means my arguement is childish?

Then it is very mature of you to make fun of my wish list, especially after you complain about me commenting on yours. We call people like you hypocrites.

I already have 550's, I just ahve not touched my profile in a while. No, they do not supply as much fuel as I wish. However, being a student, I do not have the money to toss around like some people have, and I got a good deal on them, so they will do. Also, people have run low 11's on 550's, so I think I'll be ok for a little while.

Is the SAFC the best solution? Definately not. I would buy an EMS if I could afford it. However, again, I can't, and the SAFC has been proven to work great.

You're making fun of my stuff because it is not the "best" thing money can buy, and you don't even realize how badly you are setting yourself up. I guarantee that none of the parts on your car are the BEST thing money could buy either. Perhaps they are closer than mine, but they still are not the best. Learn to think before you critisize.

Perhaps the reason I bought 550's when 660's were avalible, is similar to the reason you bought a dsm, when Porsche 911 Twin turbos are avalible.

Do you want an award for "going out of your way and chipping in to help people?" I help MANY people as well, just like I was originally trying to help you when I started this conversation. However, in this thread and in others, it appears as though you do not want our help or our suggestions. Instead, you want someone to pat you on the back and to tell you that everything you have picked out IS perfect, and will work to 100% on your car.

So, I'm going to end this right now.

That MAF looks hella sweet, if I were you I would definately buy it, it's way better than a GM MAF. Have fun.


....Kyle T.

 

[MNGSX]

There are lots of reasons why I'm looking at this sensor. I can get it in an exact size to match the throttle body going on the sheet metal intake.

I will likely run the 2g oe senssor up untill I get the sheetmetal intake and big TB on the car.

The blow thru, intake and ford TB will be grouped stage of their own probaly occuring shortly before the engine swap so I can test my legs with it on the expendable mill.

Even the GM map sensors are being calibrated by AEM EMS guys due to production tolerances.

Maybe when you are done with the student part of you life and have more freedom to consider IDEAL parts as opposed to just suficient parts hopefully people won't jump quite so hard on you for being a bit picky.

I'll see if they can provide documentation on a 3.5" GM (BTW ID is hardly 3.5") vs the sensor I linked to.

They have accurate test equipement they will likely have already done it.

Just use flow equipment pull an accurately measured and calibrated amount of air thru each and monitor the voltage output for errors like incositancy and even the overrun point.

I'll email them and ask them to PROVE the capabilites of this over a GM mas.

 

[GSX4LIFE]

Planning on making over 600whp and considering runnning a blow through MAF is relly, really sensless. I have a 3" blow through MAF now. My car runs better than most at this power level. I am right around the 400whp mark. I am not planning on making 600whp. You say you are putting a well thaught out list of matched parts, yet want to use a blowthrough MAF? Your really not thinking things through from my point of view. To think that you will be able to make 700whp alone is pretty high hopes. To think that you will be able to do this on any kind of MAF is very naive. Piggybacks arent going to cut it at that level.

 

[MNGSX]

Its not a piggy back. It's a large hotwire maf wired directly to AEM EMS just like the sensor is wires when EMS is put in a 'stang to the same pin on the EMS as on a mustang. No piggy back no translator.. NADA just running a accurate hot wire input into a standalone not a piggy back or even a translator anywhere near the car.

 

[GSX4LIFE]

OK, even worse Why would you spend the extra money for another sensor when you can run the EMS using a MAP sensor for less??

 

[MNGSX]

Meter Diameter
Maximum Recommended Horsepower

55mm
320hp

70mm
380hp

80mm
485hp

75mm Bullet
600hp

87mm Bullet
650 hp

77mm Pro M
700hp

80mm Pro M
800hp

83mm Pro M
900hp

92mm Pro M
1000hp

117mm Pro M
1500hp


They have made 1500 hp (obviously not a 4g63) thru a MAF sensor. So an 80mm MAF on a 80mm TB will be plenty for anything I'll ever try.

If they can prove to me the quality and capabilities of the product before hand and continue the tech response they are currently giving me why not run one.


The speed density has it's drawbacks. It has alot of pros too. A MAF that can keep up is a better system.

 

[MNGSX]

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/24549/

It used to be that mass airflow sensors capable of high hp were rediculously expensive and the run of the mill ones could'nt cut it.

Technology changes. A custom meter like that probably cost twice as much no too long ago.

Mas airflow has some attributes I'd like to retain.

 

[GSX4LIFE]

I think MAF is better for you as well. The power you will most likely ever see will be fine with the MAF. And there will be others that spend less money on a sensor as capable and make the same power. You know, when I started this stuff I wasted a ton of money because I didnt know any better. The difference is, I didnt have anybody telling me otherwise. So, I guess you will have to make your own mistakes in spending and hopefully learn from your mistakes. Go luck with it, and let us know how it works.

 

[autronicDSM]

MNGSX, you make absolutely no sense. All you do is brag about what you will buy and you change your mind 10 times a day. You ask for advice and then start arguing. Why would you run MAF on a standalone that can use MAP? Because it says it will support 1500HP?


I bet whatever you're trying to build won't even run like it supposed to

 

[MNGSX]

The deal with calibration is that the sensors were designed to maximize the zero to five volt scale for the engine they were designed around.

Say a 4.6 stang or a LS1 takes in x amount of air at idle then the V out for X cfm was on the low end of the 0-5v scale.

The max flow the engine demands lets call it Y CFM is designed into the sensor to occur at or near 5v V-out.

This is to maximize the resolution of the A/D converter in the ECU so it can convert the analog signal into the max resolution. This alows the for the smallest possible airflow differences to discerned by the ECU.

A 2.0, 2.4 (what ever) with a turbo will take in much less air at idle than the V8 but as much or more depending on the turbo. So what CFM is low voltage needs to be calibrated differently than the engine the sensor came from as does the upper limit.

It will be trimmed and calibrated to best represent the lowest and highest CFM demands of that engine via flow study as a voltage between 0-5v.

It like why if you never go over what a 3.5 bar map sensor can read you should'nt get a 5 bar. The resolution is'nt as good as 3.5 bar is getting spilt up across the same v-out range as the 5 bar.

If you go over 3.5 bar calibrate that thing to get the best out of the 5 bar sensor since the ECU sees smaller voltage steps as large pressure changes.

A MAF sees airflow changes but it's the same theory of making a 0-5v range acurately represent a certain range of CFM which matches engine demand.

For $200 a sheet showing what they did to match my specific application IMHO is well worth it. It also takes samples from a 360 degree range around the perimeter of the sensor body and is designed from the drawing board to be a blow thru.

They have some smart MFR's working there. He was describing terms like mach numbers and sh&t when describing MAF diameter overun.

I dont come up with this stuff cause I'm bored but because I see potential and want to discuss it. Maybe somebody else sees it too.

A Mass air sytem responds to and corrects for VE changes (engine breathing) much better than speed density.

Say someone changes cams or cam timing and flow thru the engine is increased. The mas airflow system can better adapt and "autotune" if you will to the new found airflow.

Maybe you put in 2mm oversize valves or something between seasons or someone came out with a new "best" intake manifold design so you sold your old one and switched.

You probably can match the power with speed density but it won't tune as easy or as accurately. Once tuned it will be a bit harder to make as accurate tweaks for upgrades.

 

[MNGSX]

I'm not the one with engine management in already and no time slip.

Autronic wants too much for their stuff considering the software blows compared to AEM.

Before I drop 1500 on a stand alone I want to look that thing over like a potential spouse and approach the alter same way.

 

[pneumo]

how accurately does it meter airflow at low levels?

 

[kpt4321]

MNGSX: As of now, I will consider this arguement resolved, thank you.

To whoever suggested a MAP (speed-density) based metering system:

The ONLY good reason to use speed-density, IMHO, is because it offers very low intake restriction. I personally believe that, since it is only a method of guessing what the airflow is, it does not have a place in the realm of high-performance street cars.

Hotwire air metering is very accurate, and more importantly, very reliable.

....Kyle T.

 

[autronicDSM]

kpt4321, I agree 100% but how often do you change parts that affect VE? I have experience with speed density and don't see a reason why spend money on big MAF after you bought a stand alone. Now if you're regular guy with SAFC and stock MAF I would just get GM translator.

MNGSX, I don't have a timeslip yet but I don't day dream about having 1000whp car running on ethanol and write about it in the forums. As for your choice in ECU I don't care. Here's a link for you http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000162
Maybe tomorrow you will decide to get FAST or Motec.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
kpt4321, I agree 100% but how often do you change parts that affect VE?

Quite a bit, actually. Intake piping, filters, any exhaust parts, cams, intake manifolds, and many other parts will effect VE.

However it is fairly simple to counter for these changes, if you know what you are doing.

I just do not like the sensor simply guessing what the airflow is.

....Kyle T.

 

[autronicDSM]

You mean to say you constantly swap between stock and HKS 272 cams or intake manifolds? Wow, must be nice to have access to all those parts and have time to take them off and install.

 

[QuickerDSM]

FWIW, I personally know of two guys that are pushing OVER 650rwhp using the GM MAF's with absolutely NO driveability issues in the newer F-body cars.

I trully think the benefits of that other MAF system is nill IMHO.

Mike

 

[MNGSX]

I have'nt sent them any $ yet.

I'll be asking to see flow sheets.

Like take a GM and the univer sensor and flow the same amount of air thru it.

There test equipement will know exactly what is going thru each so response and the error rate of each can be recorded and doccumented.

If you look in the EMS setup for the MAF sensor you can enter a voltage value to correspond with a MAF load number. So the voltage output I get from the data sheet for 50% max flow can be entered into the position for load number 50.


Bingo calibrated MAF.


As for sizing I'll match the TB I put on it. So something between 75mm and 80mm. There are other workable TB's than ford. I have seen some large infinity TB's on e-bay.

I guess I look at things like an engineer. Here is a book I'm reading.