Got "worked" by previous owner...just found out

[dsmtrance]

Well, after pulling the head I found out a couple "disturbing" things.
1. The head does not have SS valves in it like I was told (all have 6T on the bottom...stock)
2. Don't think it has titanium retainers either (not sure how to tell if they are or not though..anyone?)

My question is...the car was performing GREAT besides pushing coolant under boost. I am putting in a stock Mitsu 4-ply metal HG (had a stocker). I am also putting in Web Street cams. Now the question...at what point are SS valves and/or dual springs and tit. retainers "necessary". I am on a VERY tight budget and was not expecting to find this when I pulled the head off

Lastly, the pistons are definitely NOT stock. They have NO writing on the tops of them and put out 190-194 psi compression across the board (so maybe he really did put JE 9.0:1's in it at least). Plus it has no balance shafts, etc. So I KNOW the motor has definitely been redone. And honestly seems to be VERY VERY strong.

At this point I am planning on putting in new cams seals, and new valve stem seals, having the valves lapped (if needed), and having the head checked, presure tested, and cleaned...also decked (if needed).

Anyways, any input on this would be VERY much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[NosLaser]

...I am putting in a stock Mitsu 4-ply metal HG (had a stocker). ....

NO!! Do not use a 4 layer metal head gasket unless you are pulling the motor out, and having the block and the head re-decked. Yo will 'push' more coolant than before. Clean off the surface of the block and the surface of the head, use some copper spray, and a new factory head gasket with some new ARP head studs. People can disagree with me, but they'd be wrong.

Regards,

 

[GRNDSM]

That is the first that I hear about sealing problem with this Mitsu gasket... HKS gaskets had some problems, as did some generic coppers gaskets, but this not the Mitsu one...

Perhaps your block was realy warped?

 

[NosLaser]

To do it right, you NEED a reshly decked block and cylinder head. Period. End of discussion.

Regards,

 

[NJGSX96]

I concur with Aslan. I have too many friends who went Metal HG only to pull it out and put a stocker in 2 days later.

 

[Tevenor]

Just for a data point for your question on JE compression:

My 9:1 Ross piston 6-bolt block runs ~195 across the board for compression.

 

[GRNDSM]

Originally posted by NJGSX96
I concur with Aslan. I have too many friends who went Metal HG only to pull it out and put a stocker in 2 days later.

Rich, were these Mitsu Metal HG's or some other ones?

 

[g96nt]

wow... The 9.5:1's in the galant used To read 195-198psi

that's pretty high....

but 190 sounds Right For 9:1

and from what I've read...SS valves, and Ti Retainers are for higher-than-stock rev-limitors.(8000, or higher)

 

[NosLaser]

...were these Mitsu Metal HG's or some other ones?...

Dude, just trust me on this one.

Regards,

 

[g96nt]

you're not going To have leon Agree by just telling him to.....

I've tried... never Works.... =0/

 

[NosLaser]

Well, then he can learn the hard way, and all the people that lsiten to him can learn the hard way too. No skin off my testes..I'v been down that road before.

Regards,

 

[NJGSX96]

Leon, as in Leon Reittman? Sorry if I spelled that wrong. If that is you, I would advice everyone to listen to anything this man says. He has more knowledge than I could ever hope to dream of having. but I digress.........

This was a mix of the Mitsu and the HKS, I think. I know 2 friends who reworked the head and went Mitsu metal HG and had leaks. I have 1 friend who went HKS, I think, it wasn't Mitsu I know that, and he had massiver leaks. On the flip side, I have another friend who went mitsu metal HG and had no problems whatsoever. All of these where just gasket replacements, not removing the block or anything and did take place quite a while ago. One thing to say is that the people who have done this aren't the most knowledgable people I know so they could've f-d something up. how, i do not know because I did my entire motor, with help of course since I am mechanically retarded, and she actually runs great with no leaks...... anymore. hahahaha. but I went just stock hg too.

I also know a couple guys who got everything decked and leveled, block and head, and went metal HG with no problems at all.

I know people who love the mitsu metal hg and others who don't. I guess it comes down to personal preference and what experiences you and the people around you have.

now that I am thinking about it, I was shown the Mitsu metal hg recently by my friend Nate at DSMotorsport and it looks to have a good amount of gasket material. I think, and I could be wrong, he said it was redesigned to seal better. Maybe the mitsu metal hg is a good way to go if that is the case? Not too sure.

 

[Tevenor]

Yes it is that Leon. But I will let him speak for himself.

 

[larryd]

Im still crossing my fingers and praying here.. i hav the metal gasket on my block now..

 

[GRNDSM]

Rich,

As I mentioned before, HKS gasket does have pretty bad reputation. I am not even sure if decking both surfaces is always successful. But as with anything, there are some people who had good luck with them.

Mitsu metal gasket is another story, I have used it on a couple of motors (which were not decked) and they sealed just fine (though, the heads were re-surfaced in both cases). I have heard from some very reputable people who have re-used them several times on a motor that ran 30psi! Not sure that I would recommend it, but is speaks volumes if its ability.

Of course, you have to ask if this gasket is even worth using over the conventional Mitsu gasket? I have not seen any conclusive evidence that it is better. Though, it is a pretty good way to slightly drop your CR, if you are looking for it.

I used in on one of my race motors because the block was “O-ringed” and I was told that they work better with O-rings than regular gaskets. But it seems that everyone has their favorite gasket .

 

[NJGSX96]

Yeah, from what I have seen and heard, HKS Metal HG is not the way to go at all.

Mitsu metal head gasket is a mixed review from my experience, like I mentioned before. I know some who swear by it and others who are more like, "ehh". Then again, that is with everything. I hear stories of people going through stock HG like water too, so to each there own I guess. For me, the stocker works and I haven't seen any conclusive evidence either to warrant getting the metal HG over the stock one. In fact, the stock mitsu has held up to quite a bit of abuse on my part so I am pleased I chose it over the metal one. In the end, after hearing all the stories and experiences, I guess it really does come down to personal preference.

How much would the metal HG lower the compression?

hey Aslan, I just re-read this thread and your posts freakin' make me laugh out loud.... "People can disagree with me, but they'd be wrong"... "...No skin off my testes..I'v been down that road before. "... gross. Out of curiousity, do you race a lot or own a shop?

 

[HighPsi91]

Ahh, If you guys would coat the mitsu metal HG with something such as coppercoat or my preference Hylomar you would not have near the sealing problems. If the head is flat I wouldnt think twice about using a metal Hg on a uncut block and head. Clean everything good, coat the gasket and torque it down... boost away. And I have reused them on several motors with no problems to date. Chrysler just released a tech bulletin on the proper use of MLS gaskets and also stated you must use a sealant for consistant and reliable results.

 

[NJGSX96]

Hylomar is the devil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahaha........
I used that smurf piss stuff on my valve cover a long time ago and it leaked so bad. My friend swears by it but I hate it! It gives me nightmares!

 

[Bohrn]

is titanium magnetic??

 

[HighPsi91]

It is great when used for the correct application. Hylomar in the spray can is by far the best stuff I have found for headgaskets. It came highly recommended.

 

[NosLaser]

Wow, it must be my first day! I never thought of using copper spray!! Dude, get your head and block decked before using a metal headgasket. PERIOD. You can't 'cheap DSM'er' your way out of this one. It's not going to seal. To those saying they've used a metal head gasket without having the block decked, and saying they have had no problems, I say it doesn't count when you are only making 200 horsepower!!! I built a BAD ASS blueprinted bottom end with more clearances checked than I'm sure most of you know what to do with. It had a decked head, and a relatively new block. ARP head studs, copperspray, and a Mitsubishi heavy industries 4 layer metal head gasket. The car lasted for about a year before the cylinder head was ready to lift itself off the car, and after I had literally EXPLODED 4 radiators. It pressurizes the coolant system, and WILL NOT SEAL as soon as you start making...oh damn what's that stuff again... HORSEPOWER! Get your head and block decked, and for once in your DSM life do things the RIGHT WAY, or use a stock head gasket.

 

[dsmtrance]

Wow! Talk about input. Thanks for all the replys. Seems this has turned into a metal vs. stock HG thread though. Noslaser, you crack me up. . You seem to know what you're talking about though. And I DO hear what you are saying about the HG. I have gotten alot of "mixed" opinions on when to and when not to use one. Example 1. This thread! (do it/don't do it) 2. Jeff at Turbotrix (said it'd be ok) 3. Tim Buschur (said go stock) Etc., Etc.
I only wanted to go metal b/c, obviously, my stocker went out. I wrote it off as THAT being the problem (running a stock HG). I could not see anything on the gasket when I pulled it that pointed to where it was leaking. And alot of people said that that might be the case. That I may not be able to "see" where it was failing. So now, I am having this internal battle whether or not to just go with a stock HG again. I just wish I knew what caused it to fail in the first place. I'm worried about the same thing happening again. That's all. I should be in the 425-450 crank HP area once the car gets put back together. And I really do NOT want to have to do this again any time soon!
I have also decided to upgrade the head some while it's off. I 100% agree with "why do it at all if you're not going to do it right". I've got WAY too much time and $$$ in this car to take short cuts. On top of getting all new seals I am ordering (next week) some SS valves (don't know if 1mm over is any "better" than getting just stock size...is it?), and some valve springs (been looking at getting Extreme's 7800rpm street/strip spring set...$197.64). I honestly don't plan on reving the motor over 7800 anyways so I will probably keep the stock retainers (if they actually are stock or not...don't know how to tell). The head does have a mild port on it already. So that I'll leave as is. Then I'll slap on the Web Street cams I have waiting to go in, put in a metal HG, no a stock HG, no metal one, no a...... Now I feel as though I'm leaning towards a stocker. I just want it to hold up to the abuse. That's the main concern here.
Anyways, if any of you have ANY more input or advice for me let me know! I appreciate all I can get. Like I said before, this is my first "solo" attempt at doing this (have helped out and been helped out a few before) and I do NOT want to screw it up (can't afford to!). Oh, and anyone with some good DSM knowlege in the area, my offer still stands...once this thing is ready to go back together if you would be willing to help me out I'll buy the beer (LOTS OF IT!) and food. .

 

[GRNDSM]

>I built a BAD ASS blueprinted bottom end.....car lasted for about a
>year before the cylinder head was ready to lift itself off the car

NosLaser, just out of curiosity, how fast did this car run and what boost were you sending through it?....

DSMTRANCE, I might disagree with NosLaser on the metal Mitsu gasket, but I think that your will be better off with a stock one.

BTW Crower makes great 15% stiffer springs with Titanium hats for only $250. BR usually stocks them.

 

[NosLaser]

..NosLaser, just out of curiosity, how fast did this car run and what boost were you sending through it?.... ...

Small 16g, ported, no clip, 80 shot dry kit 423 wheel HP, 428 wheel torque. The local South Florida guys know what the car ran mph-wise but I don't advertise on the internet because of potential money races. My gig was up on the Supra forum. You can do a search for keyword "noslaser" and the user name 'Shoebox' to get that answer. He's a local GN guy that has seen my car run.

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

Oh Crimeny..here's the link:

http://www.supraforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36881&highlight=noslaser

Regards,