Somebody help me, this 14b upgrade is a NIGHTMARE

[KPEclipse]

Alright, I need someone to say something of substance to help me, because at this point I'm compelled to sell my dsm.

Basically, about 4 or so months ago I decided to go ahead and get rid of the t25, and go ahead to the 14b. I THOUGHT I had purchased all the supporting mods, but now I'm wishing I was just happy with what I had, because this is a DISASTER

We took off all the stuff I had, and installed a FMIC, Dejon tool UICP's(for blo thru), GM MAS, MAFt, 14b, 550cc injectors, Walbro 255, EGT, SAFC.

When we first did all of that, the car would start, it just ran DANGEROUSLY hot. I'm talkin 1100 @ idle, and would climb to damn near 14, 1500 at WOT. That obviously was no good. I tried EVERYTHING with my MAFt, but just could not get it to run right. So the next thing I tried (having a 95), was the dsmchip.

On dsmchips.com I ordered a chip to compensate for everything - 550's, FMIC, Fuel pump, the works(stutterbox and all.) I put that on, and there was a slight difference. The car ran hot, but not dangerously hot...but it still wasn't RIGHT. now, it would idle around 1000, which is acceptable, but at WOT, we're back @ 1350+...no good.

The next step was to just go without the MAFt. Since the chip setup for 2g MAS and MAFt is the same, I took the GM MAS out, put a straight pipe there, and bolted my 2g MAS on the intake. Car starts, great. Car runs good at half throttle, no EGT warnings or anything, but under load, CLIMBS LIKE CRAZY. If I don't stop after every pull and hold the car at the stutterbox so that it adds fuel and the EGT's drop, my motor would've melted. Come to find out, the socket to my ECU was bad(after we buzzed it) and that had to be repaired. In the meantime, I recieve another EPROM, socketed correctly, with my chip in it, so I can drive while my original is being repaired.

Now today, I plug the replacement ECU in, and the car doesnt even TURN OVER! I can't figure it out. The ecu and chip are definately working, because when I turn the key, before I actually try to turn it ON, CEL comes on for about 10 seconds. When I try to start it, the car cranks and cranks and cranks, but won't turn over.

I am at an end of what to do, I have NO IDEA. I disconnected the battery to reset the ECU. I know the 2g MAS is working, because last week before I took the bad socket ECU out, the car was running, plus it came off of a running car. I replaced the spark plugs, swapped the wires(1&2, 3&4), but even doing that, I get nothing. Even if the wires were bad, the car should turn over, just backfire like crazy. I don't even get that, DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS!?!?!

Please help...its been almost 6 months!

 

[LaN-]

First off do you have a palm logger?

If not thats one of your problems.

Secondly don't you need a fuel pump regulator when you upgrade to a 255 fuel pump? I know i needed one for my 1g, maybe 2g's are different.

Do you have a SAFC for tuning? If not get one.

If your EGT's are going really high your lean, and if you don't have a logger you have no way of telling what your O2 sensor is really reading, or if you knocking. If your lean you need to add fuel with the SAFC and it could band aid the problem.

What do you have the boost set at?

Have you boost leak tested the car?

Get rid of the GM MAFT its a pain in the ass to use. 2g mas can go 10 seconds, no need for a MAFT.

Fill out those and i can help you diagnose the problem further.

It's only a DSM shouldn't be that hard to figure out

 

[1gnasty]

since u had ## chip done for a gm maft u have to used the 2 g wont work, just 0 the maft out and tune with the afc the chip should be verry close jeff and nate are preatty good with the dead times

 

[FORMONTOYA]

When we first did all of that, the car would start, it just ran DANGEROUSLY hot. I'm talkin 1100 @ idle, and would climb to damn near 14, 1500 at WOT. That obviously was no good.

EGTs of 1100*F at idle is definitely not a good thing; however, at the top of 4th on a hard pull I will see 1500-1550*F.

First off do you have a palm logger?

If not thats one of your problems.

Definitely.

Secondly don't you need a fuel pump regulator when you upgrade to a 255 fuel pump? I know i needed one for my 1g, maybe 2g's are different.

2Gs are not different. Any DSM with a 255 FP will require an AFPR.

Do you have a SAFC for tuning? If not get one.

Definitely, some kind of tuning device is required.

If your EGT's are going really high your lean, and if you don't have a logger you have no way of telling what your O2 sensor is really reading, or if you knocking. If your lean you need to add fuel with the SAFC and it could band aid the problem.

What do you have the boost set at?

Have you boost leak tested the car?

Get rid of the GM MAFT its a pain in the ass to use. 2g mas can go 10 seconds, no need for a MAFT.

Fill out those and i can help you diagnose the problem further.

It's only a DSM shouldn't be that hard to figure out

And I'll agree with all of that.

 

[LaN-]

So i was correct about the fuel pump regulator, your going to want to get one. Thats not causing your issue, but its one of the problems.

 

[KPEclipse]

First off do you have a palm logger?

If not thats one of your problems.

Secondly don't you need a fuel pump regulator when you upgrade to a 255 fuel pump? I know i needed one for my 1g, maybe 2g's are different.

Do you have a SAFC for tuning? If not get one.

If your EGT's are going really high your lean, and if you don't have a logger you have no way of telling what your O2 sensor is really reading, or if you knocking. If your lean you need to add fuel with the SAFC and it could band aid the problem.

What do you have the boost set at?

Have you boost leak tested the car?

Get rid of the GM MAFT its a pain in the ass to use. 2g mas can go 10 seconds, no need for a MAFT.

Fill out those and i can help you diagnose the problem further.

It's only a DSM shouldn't be that hard to figure out

Ok good post, but I ahve all those covered

1. Got a logger
2. I have an FPR on the way, even without it thought, as you said, the car should run.
3. SAFCII is there.
4. I have my dsmchip boost gauge set for knocksum, but since I've had it the car hasn't run, so I can't tell if it's knocking if it's not running.
5. Boost is @ 12psi.
6. No, just because I was trying to get it started today. Last time I had it started, it ran fine, and nothing changed since then except my ECU.
7. The GM MAS is gone. The car is now setup for 2g MAS, no MAFt.


As for my EGT's...im seeing those temps early in 1st, not even making a HARD pull.


1gnasty, the setup on the chip for MAFT is the SAME as 2g MAS. That's why I went back. The way the translator works is to translate the signal from the GM MAS into the same signal that the ECU is supposed to read (ie Hertz to Kilohertz or vice versa). Either way, even if u look on dsmchips site, next to MAFT it says same as 2g.

keep the ideas comin guys, and thanks alot

yeah, I hope we can figure it out, especially since its "only" a dsm

I know once I get it running, it'll RIP!

 

[LaN-]

do you have your old ECU?

Could you put that back in and see if it works?

If the car just cranks, check to make sure you have spark in all 4 cylinders. Pull out the plug and put the wire on it, hold it with some plier's and ground the bottom of hte plug on the motor mount. Crank it and see if you get any spark.

If thats all good, you need to check and make sure your getting fuel. I'm not sure on the best way to check this, but you can pull the fuel rail out and crank. Make sure all the injectors are working correctly. Not really the smartest thing to do, but it would work. My buddy did it on a hot engine (retard) and had a small fire on his hands. No damage, but scary.

Check your timing make sure there is no problem there.

I'd run a compression test for the hell of it.

Since the problem started with the new ECU, i'd swap it back if you can. Or at least thats a good place to start.

 

[ZmanIV]

Question #5 asked if you have a boost leak/vacuum leak not what is your boost set at

 

[LaN-]

Question #5 asked if you have a boost leak/vacuum leak not what is your boost set at

techincally i asked both, but you are correct.

So KPEclipse, have you ran a boost leak test?

I hope we can figure out your problem ASAP.

 

[KPEclipse]

thanks so much for all your help, im about to go back to the shop now and mess with it.

we smoke tested it for a vac leak when it was running, no leak.
I don't have a boost leak tester, im trying to get one, but the reason i havent really tested it for that yet is because the car hasnt even STARTED. when it did start, that was supposed to be our next step, to boost leak test...

I had answered that question though, with #'s 5 and 6...
as for my ECU, the reason I don't have it anymore is because the soldier job on it was bad. I sent it to dsmchips for repair, and in the meantime he sent me this ECU so my car could run(whcih it's obviously not doing)

anything else?

yeah I'm hoping we can figure this thing out too, I'm going back today to check for all the things you mentioned earlier, and cahnge my fuel pump back to how it was(although I don't think that was the problem.) We had decided to hardwire it and put it on a switch so it's always on, instead of run it off of the crank sensor, but I'm going back to the crank sensor for now, see if I can get it running....

 

[LaN-]

thanks so much for all your help, im about to go back to the shop now and mess with it.

we smoke tested it for a vac leak when it was running, no leak.
I don't have a boost leak tester, im trying to get one, but the reason i havent really tested it for that yet is because the car hasnt even STARTED. when it did start, that was supposed to be our next step, to boost leak test...

I had answered that question though, with #'s 5 and 6...
as for my ECU, the reason I don't have it anymore is because the soldier job on it was bad. I sent it to dsmchips for repair, and in the meantime he sent me this ECU so my car could run(whcih it's obviously not doing)

anything else?

yeah I'm hoping we can figure this thing out too, I'm going back today to check for all the things you mentioned earlier, and cahnge my fuel pump back to how it was(although I don't think that was the problem.) We had decided to hardwire it and put it on a switch so it's always on, instead of run it off of the crank sensor, but I'm going back to the crank sensor for now, see if I can get it running....

My guess is the problem is in the ECU as far as why it won't start. Your just going to have to wait for your ECU to come back.


Now for the other problems. You really need to boost leak test the car. A vacuum leak isn't going to do anything. I bet you have some really bad boost leaks.

Once you get your ECU back the car should run (hopefully). We can then start to diagnose the issue further.

Also you don't need the car to be running to boost leak test it. Go to home depot and build yourself a tested.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

 

[Ho0ked]

My guess is the problem is in the ECU as far as why it won't start. Your just going to have to wait for your ECU to come back.


Now for the other problems. You really need to boost leak test the car. A vacuum leak isn't going to do anything. I bet you have some really bad boost leaks.

Once you get your ECU back the car should run (hopefully). We can then start to diagnose the issue further.

Also you don't need the car to be running to boost leak test it. Go to home depot and build yourself a tested.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

Agree with this fellow. also as I have more or less the same car try these things,

1) your temporary ecu is probly wrong, or busted, STOP using it before it fries a sensor or 12. Wait for yours, and make sure it looks good before installing it. also make sure they did/do it right this time, coulda blown all kindsa sensors with a bad ecu.

2) put the maf-t back in and set it for your upgraded injectors, and blow through. adjust your tuning nobs to stock, nothing more, this things translates great but tunes like crap.

3) throw that pos 2g mas-trosity in the trash (j/k put it away for now)

4) I'm not personaly familar with that keydriver chip nonsence but you don't/didn't need it im running alot more turbo/fuel/etc and my car goes fine (my issue is stopping lately )

5) i'm getting lost but trying. Set your safc to zero, stock, just set the sensor setting and the ne points acordingly, but do not adjust fuel values, especialy if you do use that keydriver/chip stuff.

6) boost leak test, if it don't hold 20 psi min for over 20 seconds the leak is to big, fix it now.

7) install that fpr right away, the 255 pump will blow your stock fpr, and can make the car run like total ass.

8) triple check that EGT thing, you/whoever may have done something wrong. I use maf-t to translate my GM maf, safc-II to tune, and pocketlogger.com with my palm IIIc to log, my car runs nicely, profile current.

8) once the car is running again, which these things will make it do barring something major you havent found, or mentioned. adjust your boost to where u want it, then go make your logging runs and adjust the safc accordingly


Any other questions i'll try to keep tabs on this thread but GF's birthday this weekend so im going to be out mostly

 

[siceclipse]

just to throw this in.
Everyones EGT's are different but the basics are always there.

My normal EGT's are about 800-1000 at idle
13-14 at cruise @3000-3500 rpm
and 1600 at 7500rpm doing a pull.

I have my sensor in the #2 runner of the manifold.

 

[KPEclipse]

Bad ECU seems to be the verdict. As I just got in from the shop, the way things are looking, thats the only possible problem. Frustrating and as much as I don't want to believe it, that seems to be the problem.

Whats funny about that GM MAS comment is, I get conflicting opinions from people. I got people telling me that the GM MAS is the worst invention ever for a dSM, and then theres guys like you saying that the 2g MAS is a terrible idea, and to get away from it. As for now, I had the car running CLOSEST to good on the 2g MAS, so that's where I'm going to say. I may go to GM MAS if I feel necessary, but not right now. Soon as that FPR is in it's going on - problem is IM BROKE AS ALL HELL. I need a gauge for it (fluid filled) and I don't know if I even have the $20 for that, after everything I've bought to try to get this thing running.

When the SAFC gets put in, it will be reset and zeroed out, no issue there.

as for siceeclipse - those temps scare the hell out of me. I mean thats HOT! I have my sensor in #1 runner, but those temps are still scary as hell, I mean if thats what it is, then thats what it is, I'm just not trying to melt anything making power you know?

thank you guys SO FREAKIN MUCH. It looks like I have to wait until the 17th(WHAT NONSENSE) to get my ECU back since Jeff is on vacation.

We figured out the reason that the car isnt starting, is because the injectors just arent firing at all on startup. They don't even click. I didn't have to pull the fuel rail to find that out. I did pull the plugs and they all spark, no problem there, so the injectors it is. And it's gotta be that eCU, ### on mine, it ran.

Any other input from you guys would be HIGHLY APPRECAITED
(oh and if anyone has a Fuel gauge layin around, that'd be great too)_

 

[TurboAnything]

Ok anyone who like's a maft more then a 2gmas for a low power car is crazy! When you install a maft you lose 2 sensors air temp and bero pressure. so any climate changes have to be tuned for PITA. And seeing 1500f on your EGT's is not that high. they will climb fast but will stay at 1600f through all the gears and thats perfectly fine. And a Fpr will not make the car undrivable the fuel trims will make up for most of it. If you dont belive me then piss off cause i have been doing it for years on 10 diffent cars with no problems. In fact i just went from a stock regulator to a Fuelab regulator on a car that was making 550hp and there was almost no tuning to change.

 

[LaN-]

the MAFT is a POS. The design is horrible also.

The 2g mas has gone 10 seconds on the 1/4 miles. Its proven.

The MAFT works off a hot wire. Inside the sensor is a wire that gets heated up as air flows over it it cools down. Depending on the temp tells you the air flow. The problem is compressed air gets heated up and its compressed so it causes even more issues. You get really strange readings outta the thing.

It can work on a DSM and it can do a good job, but its just making things more complicated at this point. Your car does not NEED a MAFT, so why bother with it. i run an FP green at almost 30 psi with a 2g mas on my 1g and i have no issues.

Since we are trying to diagnose this, keeping it simple is the best way.

 

[KPEclipse]

yeah im staying with the 2g mas for now...ive heard of guys going 10's with the 2g mas, i dont need newhere near that time...so 2g mas is all for me...as for the fpr...yeah i heard the same thing too

i heard, more than once, that my car will run relatively well WITHOUT the FPR...it's just that the FPR is BETTER to have, and will mke the car run even BETTER

are u guys SURE about these temps!?
## the second or third person on these threads seeing really high temps on ## EGT...i understood they can get high, but like during cruising or something they shouldnt be...my car was climbing up there @ half throttle...those temps scare the hell outa me, i was afriad for the motor @ around 12...16 is like HOTHOTHOTHOT haha

please, if anyone has more feedback on those EGT's let me know, in the meantime im waiting for another socketed WORKING EPROM =(

 

[KPEclipse]

ive been on the computer reading for the past two days with little to no sleep...and with these symptoms...does anyone think it could be the resistor pack?

I'm personally having trouble beleiving that dsmchips sent me a BAD ECU...yeah, without a doubt its possible, I'm just having a hard time beleiving it. The car did start just the other day with my original ECU, but now with this one it wont...then again, with this one, the injectors arent even clicking when I try to crank it...

resistor pack anyone?

 

[Mikael SS]

First off do you have a palm logger?



If your EGT's are going really high your lean,

One of the biggest misconceptions ever, and i don't know why everybody falls for it. 9 times out of 10 if you are really hot at idle (or your manifold is glowing red) the car is far too rich. Fuel is not burning in the cylinder, instead is burning in the exhaust manifold. The car simply can't run lean enough to overheat at idle. That, or your valves are improperly lashed. since you didn't mess with that, i would look at fuel first.

 

[tkelly27]

Additionally, check into your spark timing. Too far retarded (I think...) will have the fuel still burning as it exits the exhaust valve.

 

[KPEclipse]

well right now i have neither, the car's not even STARTING

 

[TurboAnything]

to check if it's the Ecu or the resistor pack use a multimeter and see if the injector plug has 12v. If you have 12v then its the Ecu.

 

[KPEclipse]

bad ECU means all I can do is replace it right?

 

[LaN-]

bad ECU means all I can do is replace it right?

depending on whats wrong, you might be able to get it fixed, you'd have to take it to an electronics shop.

 

[blacktsi95]

in terms of your car not starting, if you have no spark and no fuel i would check the crank position sensor. if it is bad it will stop spark and fuel flow. took me a week to figure it out. mine went out in my 95 while i was breaking in a motor. just decided to die. you may also check your cas. but i bet its the crank sensor.

im not sure about needing a afpr cause i dont have one in either of the 3 dsm's in my parking lot. no problems. and they are all 300+awhp cars. not bragging just stating. good luck on the fuel trims. get that thing to someone with a wideband.