Mutt Turbo vs. Green & Red ... Please help

[vassil]

Hi Guys,

I am tering my car apart and installing a bunch of stuff all at the same
time. I am stuck at the turbo. I am split between the Mutt Level3/5
and the Green/Red Turbo. Everyone that I talk to seems to hate the
Mutts. Robert from FP refuses to talk about them. Jeff @ turbotrix
says that Green is the ticket and the Mutts are a joke. I am kinda lost.

The way I look at it, the Green is the best Frank to come around but
it still have a TD06/Mitsu 7cm and so is the Red. They have Garret wheels. The Mutts look really good and their price is also right.

Looking at the money mutts come out cheaper and looking better.
For the Green/Red I need a Tial40/Tubular O2 and a necked down
3" downpipe. With the Mutt I have get a true 3" O2 Eliminator DP
and the turbo, then I am done. Plus you get the 39mm wastegate...
The prospect for power is looking really good.

Which one is better and why ...

As to my car, (90 TSI AWD) I am putting Eagle Rods, ROSS 8:1 pistons, ARP hardware, Buschur Stage 3 head and HKS 272 cams. Later when I get some more money and IRC Race Core. The car already has 3" Thermal exhaust, S-SAFC, 660's SX FPR and a Walbro 255.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

I am looking to hit at elast 400-450HP.


Thanx again.

 

[rdrkt]

If you are looking for only 400-450 I would suggest a green. I’m sure we can start a huge flame war about what’s better. The fact remains that the FP Green is a proven setup. If you ask any good shop they will tell you the same thing that FP is the real deal. In fact in the latest Sports Compact Car there is a little blurb saying that FP is powering some of the fastest DSMs in the country and that has to count for something.

 

[jdmawd]

there are a couple of problems with how you went about finding information, about the mutt line of turbos. first why would you call FP about a turbo they don't even make. that's like going to a ford dealer trying to buy a chevy. secondly Jeff hill is a vender for FP you will get the same answer from him also. you never call a shop and ask about the competition, a better method would be to call FP tell them what you are looking for. as far as performance, and setup. let them recommend a turbo to best suit your needs. I would advise, the same when calling dsm-performance. only accept opinions, from venders about their turbo. only take advice, from people who have the product that you are interested in. your situation is a carbon copy of mine 3 months ago. the decision i made, was based on customer service, owner feedback (in real world situations ), and product explanation. in other words the mutt turbo just had more available information about it than just. *ITS FAST. i also liked the idea of a 39 mm internal gate that works. why do other venders say internals don't work. well most only use a 34 mm gate not a 39 mm which is just about the size of most externals.

PS:until someone takes the same car, and installs both turbos on it and goes consistantly faster or slower. the mutt vs green argument is *MUTE*

 

[jdmawd]

the turbo on glazers old car that went 8.87 was built by dsm-performance. who also builds the mutt series turbos.

 

[rdrkt]

If the argument is mute then it would be silent. Now if it’s moot then it would be an irrelevant argument. Do you honestly think its every going to happen? Can't we just look at the numbers and times each car is running?

Do you really think the same effort that goes in to Glazer’s turbo is transferred into the consumer version? His car is very hard to compare to a street going Talon its running a ton of nitrous and is several hundred pounds lighter than any street Talon that I have seen. Who makes the turbo that Shepherd is running or Hill? At least those cars are still “street” cars.

I don’t really want to flame away at this. At the end of the day you can make the power you are looking for with either turbo. I think there is a right answer to this question but we can let others talk now.

 

[jdmawd]

Who makes the turbo that Shepherd is running or Hill? At least those cars are still “street” cars.

you're definition of street car, and mine are two very different things. you give new people a false sense of reality when you call shepherd and hill's cars *STREET* car




one more time:

until someone takes the same car, and installs both turbos on it and goes consistantly faster or slower. the mutt vs green argument is *MUTE* <--------notice the spelling

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by jdmawd
argument is *MUTE*[/B] <--------notice the spelling [/B]

yes I noticed the spelling in your last post where you used to word incorrectly. Apparently you are going to stick to misusing that word. Whatever makes you happy

mute = quiet
moot = irrelevant

You are saying that until someone puts a green and a level 3 on the same car the argument is quiet.

I think it would be said this way. Until someone puts a green and a level 3 on the same car the argument is irrelevant.

 

[RACER-X]

i think rdrkt english is up to par, and jdm you stand corrected, however; i always thought external wastegates for power and performance was the way to go

 

[jdmawd]

The point is still the same, you can beat around the bush with grammar mistakes all you like. Every time a comparison is made between the two turbos, the cars are not at the same level of modifications. yes you can use a FP turbo as a bases to buy a FP turbo, but not as a bases not to buy a different turbo.

 

[Jason_Crowe11]

I'd highly recommend a Mutt!

Personally I run the ETE52....it spools fast(building full boost by 3500)...and pulls very strongly. I can't give you much more info than that; because, frankly I don't have anything further to offer yet.

I did a full swap from my old '92 FWD Laser(turbo)>>to a '92 AWD Laser==> and since that time my car has only been running about half the time. (working out the bugs) One problem after another(NONE related to the turbo>>i had problems with a leaky ecu, leaky IC, and now a broken center diff>which has trashed the tranny).

So, I have yet to be able to dyno the car, or run it down the track. I also have not turned the boost up where it needs to be yet...I prefer not risking going too high(on my stock motor) without having the dyno to monitor where I'm at. My goal is to set my car for 400hp on pump gas daily..and leave it (for now)>>As soon as I get my dyno tuning done...I'll be more than happy to share my settings/results.

I do know that Jeff Elliot's car had the same turbo I do==and he made some "10.8@133" passes before switching to something larger(now he is running an ETE73).

Do your own research and make your own choice....don't base it on one persons likes/or dislikes.

Laters
Jason.

 

[IPT]

These are my personal experiences:

1) I have an old school mutt level 3. LOVE IT!! I was getting full spool around 3200 rpms and ran a 12.8 with just bolt-ons. Then I found out that the exhaust valves on my #1 cylinder were dead. I ran it on only 3 cylinders. Now I am upgrading to the ETE32 for better spool up and more top end.

2) I have a friend with the ETA32. His personal best is a 12.3 @111 mph. Also with bolt-ons. (includes FMIC) NOt too bad considering that was on a STOCK CLUTCH that was hating life!!

3) I have ridden in a Green equiped 2G. Full weight street car 2G head and TB. Best was around 12.2 I believe. That car had an o2 mounted external wastegate. Had boost creep bad. Had to make sure that he shifted before 7000 rpms or the boost would go too high.


As it looks to me as far a value goes. When looking at a Green you will have to add in the price of an external wastegate and a way to mount it. Robert recommends an O2 mounted wastegate, so you will have to get a different O2 housing.

The mutt internal wastegates have been PROVEN to run boost levels as low as 9 psi and as high as 30+ psi of boost. No need for the extra $250-$400 for the external wastegate. Also the Mutts come with a REALLY nice casted intake pipe. Mine is powder coated. (Very nice!!)

The Green has been out longer so there are more number to back it up. The Mutts are younger turbos and are starting to Prove themselves on the street and the track. I personally want to be one of the people to set those numbers..

Hope this rambling helps some. LAter

 

[TripleDigitTSI]

Thank you, finally somebody has put up and arguement defending the mutts. Yes they are new and numbers are rolling in as we speak. I know ill be reporting my ETE42 numbers in a few weeks so you guys can get an idea. In my opinion, mutts are the best value turbo on the dsm market. Who wants to waste money on an external anyways? I know for a fact that the only turbo under my hoods will be made by extreme turbo. You cant beat the customer service there. Hell, when i went to order my turbo i talked to Pete for like an hour telling him my current and future mods and he picked out the best turbo for me which in the future could be easily upgradable. I trust them completely and i suggest that you all give them a chance.

 

[G50trim92]

I have a ETA32 on my car and I am very happy with it. My second time at the track it ran a 12.3 @ 111 on a stock clutch. This turbo has TONS of potential to go very fast. Also the internal gate has worked great for me, no complaints at all. I'm sure the green is a good turbo as well and I can't say anything bad about it, it has been proven.
I have had great customer service from DSM-P, very helpful and honest people. Do your own research on all the models your interested in, talk to people who run them on there cars, call both shops up, and make your own decision.
Good luck!

 

[Geovannie]

So you guys are only getting mutts because they have internal gates? They do sell greens with internal gates.

I just have a question, why is it that only a handful of guys with mutts have gone to the track. Why haven't you gone to the track or done anything JDMAWD? You seem to have a huge modlist so I'm guessing your car is pretty much ready. I'm also assuming through that all the tracks are open throughout the US. I'm in Florida so I don't have that problem Track closes for maybe 2 weeks in December.

BTW JDM, I'm not trying to flame you or anything I'm just curious since I have seen lots of post from you from the begining and you seem to have everything now.

 

[vassil]

It seems like I have started an interesting discussion. Thank you
for the info guys. I just wanted to clarify my message yesterday
and say a couple more things.

Green Turbo

Modified Mitsu TD06 compressor
Gutted out Mitsu 7cm turbine housing
Garret wheel
Mystical power that is proven on the track.
Curt Brown (10 secs car)
Price internally gated is 1525
Oil cooled 2 lines (1-in 1-out)

Green+FP EVOIII ported O2 housing +DB 3" downpipe =
1525+255+300=2080

Turbotrix Green+ Turbotrix Tubular 02+Tial 40 +DB 3" downpipe =
1275 +725+300=2300

In the end you get a Mitsubishi Turbo with a garett wheel
It is proven to work, that is all I hear.

ETE32

TO4E compressor housing
Mitsu 7cm turbine housing
50 trim compressor wheel
T3 Hi-Flow turbine wheel

It is water-cooled, so is a 20G and that is proven to work.

ETE32+O2 eliminator DP 3" stainless (w/ dump)=
1384+504 =1888

I realize that there are plenty of guys that run the Green and are
fast and proven. I also realize that Robert pioneered the Franks
and has plenty of experience, but would anyone come out
and say WHY is the green better. I need an argument more than
just "IT WORKS" and Curt Brown ran a low 10sec 1/4 mile with it.

The Mutts are new and while on that topic, Dave Buschur has a
BR-57 T3/T4 and that thing is in his orange 1G DSM and it
hapily runs 10's. It is not a green, it a full garret.

In the end, I don't wanna start any wars, and I do apologize if I
have offended any of you or your preferences toward the various
vendors. I am just trying to make the right choice. I need a turbo
and I need it soon

 

[Geovannie]

I really don't care about theory. In theory many things would not work but dsmers prove that wrong everytime. I love the answer "it works" that is all I need to know. I know there are probably at least 15+green powered cars in the US that are not full stree/race cars like Curts that have hit 11s. 2 locally where I'm from. Jut because you don't see them on the dsmtimes list does not mean that there are none out there.

I'm not saying that the Mutts don;t work. Nobody knows cause no serious person has stepped up and run one. Chances are that you bolt up a comparible in size Mutt to one of these 11sec green powered cars and you might still run 11s. Why are there not more mutts out there running 11s? Don't use that poor excuse that the tracks are closed or that you are getting your setup done or that they have only been out x amount of time. I can't wait for the day that somebody runs consistent 11s in a decent sized mutt not a mutt level 20.

 

[Geovannie]

Originally posted by vassil


The Mutts are new and while on that topic, Dave Buschur has a
BR-57 T3/T4 and that thing is in his orange 1G DSM and it
hapily runs 10's. It is not a green, it a full garret.

You can't compare the BR57 to a green Two entirely different monsters. Talk to RDKT for info on that.

 

[IPT]

Does any one have an internally gated green?? I know that Robert recommends going external. I was just wondering if any one has personal experience with it. I have heard through the grapevine that it does not work the best. Could any one give me a better idea on this??

 

[NosLaser]

People who have Green turbo's on their cars have just as many problems as people with Mutts on their cars; you just don't hear about it as much OR people tend to shut their ears when they hear negative things about something they like. I will have an ETE42 on my car (waiting on money at this point, I unfortunately don't have rich parents to pay for everything for me) and I will make big power on it. I've said it about a million times. Give someone who knows what they are doing a McLaren F1 and it will run 10's. Give some bonehead the same car, and it will run 14's. Has my point been made yet? 9 times out of 10, it's the OPERATOR, not the product. That's like a poor musician blaming his instrument. With the old school level 1 Mutt (TDO5H back wheel) we pulled off an 11.7 at 114 with the stoock bottom end (391 to the wheels). The newer Mutts should be capable of much more. The Green is a very capable turbo as well. I however, will be going with a Mutt because I personally feel it's the better turbo. Here's a thought for today: "Think for yourself..." Nothing against the Green turbo, but here's another line... "People are such sheep, no wonder it's #1!"

Regards,

 

[Geovannie]

Originally posted by NosLaser
. Give someone who knows what they are doing a McLaren F1 and it will run 10's. Give some bonehead the same car, and it will run 14's. Has my point been made yet? 9 times out of 10, it's the OPERATOR, not the product.

This is my point. There has to be somebody in the freaking US with a damn Mutt that knows what they are doing. I'm not talking about the shop car either. Whatever happened to widebody guy? Didn't he have pretty serious setup ready to go like a year ago?

I'm not a turbo builder so I won't pretend to be one, but I dont think there is a reason some of the mutts will not work. For example, the 50trim t4e stage III mutt. That is essentially the turbo that quite a few 11 sec cars are running. For example Rich G. He is running that combo with a .63 a/r housing and has run 11.3s I believe. However that is all theory. I'm not a mutt defender cause I could honestly give two shits about them but just wanted to point that out.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Here's a thought for today: "Think for yourself..." Nothing against the Green turbo, but here's another line... "People are such sheep, no wonder it's #1!"

But is it? Which one has sold more? I was under the impression that a ton of lvl 3s have been sold.

Originally posted by NosLaser
I will have an ETE42 on my car (waiting on money at this point, I unfortunately don't have rich parents to pay for everything for me) and I will make big power on it

I don’t know if anyone else picked up on this. Aslan why the change?

 

[NosLaser]

My car should be going together within the next month or two (depending on my financial situation) and within the next couple months will receive the ETE42, a front mount, 3 inch MAS pipe, and 750cc injectors. See profile or whatever for mods. You guys will just have to wait a few months; but everyone has waited this long so far so I'm sure it won't be too tedious. I will make big power. I will scan dyno sheets. I will run big times at the track. I will scan timeslips. I will have video. Be patient, it's coming...

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

....I don’t know if anyone else picked up on this. Aslan why the change?....

Which change?

 

[Geovannie]

Originally posted by NosLaser
My car should be going together within the next month or two (depending on my financial situation) and within the next couple months will receive the ETE42, a front mount, 3 inch MAS pipe, and 750cc injectors. See profile or whatever for mods. You guys will just have to wait a few months; but everyone has waited this long so far so I'm sure it won't be too tedious. I will make big power. I will scan dyno sheets. I will run big times at the track. I will scan timeslips. I will have video. Be patient, it's coming...

Regards,

You will need to bring it up to Orlando for battle of the imports later this year. There should be some very fast DSMs at that event

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by NosLaser
I will make big power. I will scan dyno sheets. I will run big times at the track. I will scan timeslips. I will have video. Be patient, it's coming...

Glad to see you sticking with DSMs. I cant wait to see the results.

Originally posted by NosLaser
Which change?

You were going to turbo a v8 firebird and get out of the import scene. Now you seems to be going back in it full force.