CO2 Spryer, who's got'em and how do you like'em?

[Precision]

Like the title says. I've been looking into a DEI CO2 set up and just wondered if they were worth the money.

 

[avw0516]

I don't have one, but I do agree they are definately cool. No pun intended.

Seriously though they are the same concept as the N-tercooler kits and that stuff. I am sure it would work fairly well as co2 is some cold stuff (have had some paintball experience). I am curious to see how much some people have benefitted off it though because it is way cheaper than nitrous.

 

[gSx_r1der]

I don't have one, but I do agree they are definately cool. No pun intended.

Seriously though they are the same concept as the N-tercooler kits and that stuff. I am sure it would work fairly well as co2 is some cold stuff (have had some paintball experience). I am curious to see how much some people have benefitted off it though because it is way cheaper than nitrous.

You'll be surprised as how much anyone has gained from using one. Anyone who owns one will tell you strait up to spend your money else where. For the cost of the product its not worth the minimal if any gains.

 

[avw0516]

Really? Thats kind of odd, but thats probably why nitrous is so much more expensive.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Really? Thats kind of odd, but thats probably why nitrous is so much more expensive.

I think he was talking about intercooler sprayers in general. I've heard gains from nitrous sprayers are negligible from numerous people running them. In theory, the cooling effect of evaporating nitrous oxide should be greater since its melting point is about 40 degrees (Celsius) lower. The concept of these systems is good, it just isn't very functional.

 

[1stGenRocks]

get a methanol injection system instead. not only do you get the cooling effect of it evaporating you also get the octane boost from the alcahol

 

[gSx_r1der]

I think he was talking about intercooler sprayers in general. I've heard gains from nitrous sprayers are negligible from numerous people running them. In theory, the cooling effect of evaporating nitrous oxide should be greater since its melting point is about 40 degrees (Celsius) lower. The concept of these systems is good, it just isn't very functional.

The charge air is already moving way to fast for this to be considered a major performance upgrade. How much cooler are you actually going to get the intercooler by running this??Afew degrees(if that)?? Is that even worth it ???? To answer that IMO,No! Unless you've done everything in the world to go faster and you just need that extra half a tenth of a sec to be in the 8's instead of 9's then But for you, why dont you consider getting an alky injection or meth and turn the boost up on that 3065 and max that out and then run a turbo that has a bigger hotside so you have less backpressure and then you'll get those extra ponies you're looking for. You should be working on putting that fp turbo in the 10's dude, or spend your money and go to the track and race instead of trying to bolt more shit on.

 

[Precision]

I should have no problem getting in the 10's.....I hope, I agree a alky kit would be a better all around buy. Do you recomend a paticular set up?

 

[Turbocharged]

I should have no problem getting in the 10's.....I hope, I agree a alky kit would be a better all around buy. Do you recomend a paticular set up?

Build your own system. Mine cost about $150 total in parts and it equivalent or superior to most kits I have seen... it gets the job done.

If you vehicle profile is up to date and your car isnt stripped to hell, then you will have to be the worlds best driver to get into the 10's with some high octane fuel.

 

[Turbocharged]

Here is a post I made some time back:

"Just wanted to correct the octane ratings listed in some of the posts:

Toluene - 114
Xylene - 117
Methanol or Ethanol - 101
Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol - 101

These are the octanes using the R+M/2 ratings. Personally, I think its better to run distilled H2O because it has the largest heat capacity and latent heat of vaporization (better cooling capacity allows you to lean out your fuel trims more = more timing). Adding alcohols DOES NOT increase octane. The amount of alcohol that is added through injection is negligable compared to the amount of gasoline in the cylinder. If you want an octane booster, add 30% toluene/xylene to your gas tank."

I personally run distilled H2O on my injection setup and have had the best results with it.

 

[oddrob]

On two different points, I usually see a 15-30whp gain using the intercooler sprayers. On the alcohol injection, with the set-up we use it runs srtaight denatured alcohol, and I've seen gains of up to 120awhp.

 

[Precision]

If you vehicle profile is up to date and your car isnt stripped to hell, then you will have to be the worlds best driver to get into the 10's with some high octane fuel.

I plan on strpiping the car out to get the times i'm looking for, as far as mods not in my profile; 9lb fadanza, exedy stage 2, crower 2mm O/S valves, crower stage 3's. I'm going to do an @ the track comperison between stock 1g intake and a magnus. It sould be an interesting number difference.

 

[oddrob]

The 1G intake manifold performed surprisingly well on the intake manifold testing last year, but I would still expect better top end in a SMIM, and in the 1/4, that can be key.

 

[gSx_r1der]

On two different points, I usually see a 15-30whp gain using the intercooler sprayers. On the alcohol injection, with the set-up we use it runs srtaight denatured alcohol, and I've seen gains of up to 120awhp.

wow, its amazing what turning up the boost and leaning it out will do for you when you dont have knock and arent pulling timing.

 

[91-gsx]

riginally Posted by oddrob
On two different points, I usually see a 15-30whp gain using the intercooler sprayers. On the alcohol injection, with the set-up we use it runs srtaight denatured alcohol, and I've seen gains of up to 120awhp.

have you tied water instead of the alcohol? if so which one worked better? and how much alcohol to fuel do you use?
120awhp, that is freakin crazy.
later

 

[Turbocharged]

120awhp, that is freakin crazy.
later

Its also very hard to believe...

 

[oddrob]

I have the dyno graphs. I have not tried straight water, but did my first injection kit with a 50/50 mix. That was good for a 40 awhp gain on a 95 Talon. The 120 was an '03 Evo, and we all know turning up the boost creates horsepower. With the cooling effects of the alcohol, the progressive rate of the alcohol let us go from 19#'s to 26#'s with the knock totally under control. Add that to tuning to a nice easy 12.0-1 AFR and it happened. That is also the best case scenario that I have seen on the dyno. 50 whp being a more general average, and I've seen as little as 15whp.

 

[Turbocharged]

You should give 100% distilled water. Here are some latent heats of vaporization:

Gasoline: ~140 Btu/lb
Ethanol: 361 Btu/lb
Water: 970 Btu/lb

The idea behind water injection is to replace excess/nonstoichiometric gasoline with something that has a better cooling capacity (in this case water). When I say "replace", I mean leaning out you A/F ratio. Many people get caught up in trying to add something with a supposed "high octane". Replacing a little gasoline with ethanol will not significantly change the octane rating of the intake charge. Adding a 50/50 mixture will actually LOWER the octane (although its only on the order of a 0.1 octane change); although you will end up with a latent heat of 665 btu/lb, water is still a better choice.

The idea is to replace the gasoline with something that will quench combustion temperatures. Water is almost 3 times better at doing this compared to ethanol or methanol.

 

[oddrob]

"Since greater compression ratios in an engine mean increased power per stroke and greater efficiency, the ability of a fuel to resist premature detonation is a desirable quality. The "octane" numbers assigned to fuels are based on the pure hydrocarbon, octane, which is considered to be 100. At the other end of the scale, n-heptane is considered to have an octane rating of zero. The octane number of an unknown fuel is based on the percentage volume of a mixture of octane and n-heptane that matches it in preignition characteristics. In practice, these tests are conducted in a special test engine with variable compression. As noted in Figure 2-2, alcohols have a relatively high anti-knock or octane rating. As noted in Figure 2-3, alcohols have the ability to raise considerably the octane ratings of gasolines with which they are mixed. "

This is right out of the book....

 

[91-gsx]

You should give 100% distilled water. Here are some latent heats of vaporization:

Gasoline: ~140 Btu/lb
Ethanol: 361 Btu/lb
Water: 970 Btu/lb

The idea behind water injection is to replace excess/nonstoichiometric gasoline with something that has a better cooling capacity (in this case water). When I say "replace", I mean leaning out you A/F ratio. Many people get caught up in trying to add something with a supposed "high octane". Replacing a little gasoline with ethanol will not significantly change the octane rating of the intake charge. Adding a 50/50 mixture will actually LOWER the octane (although its only on the order of a 0.1 octane change); although you will end up with a latent heat of 665 btu/lb, water is still a better choice.

The idea is to replace the gasoline with something that will quench combustion temperatures. Water is almost 3 times better at doing this compared to ethanol or methanol.

so are you saying that there is more power to be gained from water then alcohol? you have told us all the right reasons to use water, but alcohol cools the combustion chambers, the air, and it raises the octane rating of fuel. water is great because it is cheap and does not take as much tuning as alcohol, but it only cools down the combustion chambers and allows you to advance the timing a lot, but i have yet to hear about running a lot more boost and timing from strictly water injection. it usually takes alcohol to add more boost along with your timing.
this is what i have learned through reading about water/alcohol injection, and i have been reading for a while now. i understand that water works well for you, but have you personally tried alcohol instead?

 

[Turbocharged]

"Since greater compression ratios in an engine mean increased power per stroke and greater efficiency, the ability of a fuel to resist premature detonation is a desirable quality. The "octane" numbers assigned to fuels are based on the pure hydrocarbon, octane, which is considered to be 100. At the other end of the scale, n-heptane is considered to have an octane rating of zero. The octane number of an unknown fuel is based on the percentage volume of a mixture of octane and n-heptane that matches it in preignition characteristics. In practice, these tests are conducted in a special test engine with variable compression. As noted in Figure 2-2, alcohols have a relatively high anti-knock or octane rating. As noted in Figure 2-3, alcohols have the ability to raise considerably the octane ratings of gasolines with which they are mixed. "

This is right out of the book....

I agree with this.

However, the volume of alcohol that you are adding by injection is insignificant relative to the amount of gasoline in the cylinder. If you want to raise octane, add toluene or xylene to your fuel tank. If you want to lower combustion temperatures, inject water before the throttle body. My objective was to reduce preignition by way of reducing combustion temperatures. You might as well be adding alcohol to your fuel tank in small quantities if you are going to be injecting it anyways.

I have a degree in chemical engineering and understand the combustion properties of alcohols and long chain alkanes. I personally like the properties of cycloalkanes when it comes to raising octane. I wish tetraethyl lead was o2 sensor freindly...

Im sorry this thread has gone so far off topic...

 

[91-gsx]

dont be, this stuff is always fun to talk about. now i have another question for you on top of the question that i already asked you. so you think if i use water instead of alcohol, i wil be able to run more boost and timing and a leaner mixture? this is getting interesting.
later

 

[oddrob]

All cars run a bit different, but in general, using water/alcohol injection will allow you to run more boost and timing, adding the injection will cause the car to run richer, and by bringing that back to a normal level you will pick up even more.
I'm definately interested in keeping discussion open. I do not have a degree of any kind, but can relate my own dyno expierience, and present my findings of trial and error.

 

[oddrob]

However, the volume of alcohol that you are adding by injection is insignificant relative to the amount of gasoline in the cylinder. If you want to raise octane, add toluene or xylene to your fuel tank. If you want to lower combustion temperatures, inject water before the throttle body. My objective was to reduce preignition by way of reducing combustion temperatures. You might as well be adding alcohol to your fuel tank in small quantities if you are going to be injecting it anyways.


Running the alcohol on a computer controlled progressive system allows us to inject the alky only under certain conditions. Adding it to the fuel, while I can understand the octane boosting properties of it, would be both cumbersome and expensive. Like running around on C-16 all day (I wish!)

 

[Turbocharged]

dont be, this stuff is always fun to talk about. now i have another question for you on top of the question that i already asked you. so you think if i use water instead of alcohol, i wil be able to run more boost and timing and a leaner mixture? this is getting interesting.
later

Do you already have an injection system. If not, yes you will get more timing if you inject H2O, alcohol, or a 50/50 mixture (if tuned). Its up to your personal preference what you want to inject. I like H2O for injection because it works on paper AND has performed great for me personally. I have contemplated a toluene injection system but have not tryed it (Im too lazy to have two seperate tunes). You must have a pump with viton seals if you want to inject toluene (or methanol which is also a popular choice).

oddrob:

I agree that running alcohol in your fuel tank is expensive but what I dont understand is why you mix it with 50% water. If you like the properties of alcohol, why not run 100% alcohol injection? Obviously, one must be better than the other so why mix the two?

I like keeping this discussion open as well. Ive had a few discussion about this before but someone always ends up being uncivil. This is a good exchange of personal experiences. I wish I had back to back dynos but I dont...

Another thing to think about is the cleaning properties of H2O in the cylinder. When I change my spark plugs I can damn near see my reflection off my piston. Less carbon on the pistons/cylinder walls = more heat tranfer out of the cylinder = less knock. Carbon is not a good conductor of heat.

This is something that will never get solved because it always comes down to how you tune with your injection.