Cams Vs Turbo, Input?

[daren_p]

Well the ride is in storage for the winter so I need to buy some "go fast" parts to bolt on in the spring. Currently I have the evoIII turbo and was running at 18 psi last summer but with the fmic that I installed last fall and arp headstuds I will be turning the boost up to 20 this spring. With the old setup I was seeing ~33 lb/min but with boost turned up to 20 I would like to be closer to the 40 lb/min range. So here's my question, what do you think I should get? (even though I'll end up getting both in the long run ) cams or a new turbo? For cams I would be looking at the FP1's, I know everyone will say just go with the 2's but being Im fwd and I don't think I can pass emissions here with the 2's (and I don't want to swap for the test as they also do street "spot" tests as well). For the turbo I was looking at some kind of 50 trim. Im leaning towards a bb unit. I was origionally thinking SBR gt 11 or 12 but I see the new pte bb units and for the price I might try one of those out. So whats everyones opinion on what upgrade? They will end up basically costing the same since I can sell my evoIII to make up the difference. Which one will give me the bigger gains (@20 psi, street tune, ultra 94 fuel) as this is basically a street car. Thanks

 

[importboost]

Well the ride is in storage for the winter so I need to buy some "go fast" parts to bolt on in the spring. Currently I have the evoIII turbo and was running at 18 psi last summer but with the fmic that I installed last fall and arp headstuds I will be turning the boost up to 20 this spring. With the old setup I was seeing ~33 lb/min but with boost turned up to 20 I would like to be closer to the 40 lb/min range. So here's my question, what do you think I should get? (even though I'll end up getting both in the long run ) cams or a new turbo? For cams I would be looking at the FP1's, I know everyone will say just go with the 2's but being Im fwd and I don't think I can pass emissions here with the 2's (and I don't want to swap for the test as they also do street "spot" tests as well). For the turbo I was looking at some kind of 50 trim. Im leaning towards a bb unit. I was origionally thinking SBR gt 11 or 12 but I see the new pte bb units and for the price I might try one of those out. So whats everyones opinion on what upgrade? They will end up basically costing the same since I can sell my evoIII to make up the difference. Which one will give me the bigger gains (@20 psi, street tune, ultra 94 fuel) as this is basically a street car. Thanks

either way you will prob need new injectors to go with it. well depends on what you have now. but if you have the right injectors id go with cams. i dont see a need for a 50trim on a fwd. pointless IMO

 

[92awddsm]

The real question is do you want something that has good low end and fast spool or something with good top end and slower spool? If you want more top end now and slower spool (helps with fwd), go with the 50 trim.

Now, on the other hand, the evoIII has been proven to produce good power and with cams, it will be more potent. The down side is that it will still spool early and make more power at a lower rpm which isnt good for fwd. But the upside is that the cams will still give you a few hundred more rpm of pulling power.

Answer these questions and it should make your decision easier.

 

[92awddsm]

i dont see a need for a 50trim on a fwd. pointless IMO

Coming from someone with wheels, a boost controller, and a turbo timer WTF

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

The real question is do you want something that has good low end and fast spool or something with good top end and slower spool? If you want more top end now and slower spool (helps with fwd), go with the 50 trim.

Now, on the other hand, the evoIII has been proven to produce good power and with cams, it will be more potent. The down side is that it will still spool early and make more power at a lower rpm which isnt good for fwd. But the upside is that the cams will still give you a few hundred more rpm of pulling power.

Answer these questions and it should make your decision easier.

Not only will cams let him pull longer, but since they demand more air, they'll add some lag as well. I'd say to rock some nice cams! Our stockers aren't so great for top-end... which us FWD guys need. Cams!

 

[92awddsm]

Not only will cams let him pull longer, but since they demand more air, they'll add some lag as well. I'd say to rock some nice cams! Our stockers aren't so great for top-end... which us FWD guys need. Cams!

Not a noticable amount of lag. I think my 16g spooled about 150rpm slower with the comp101200's than it did with the stockers.

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

Yeah, I forgot to add my FMIC to that lag equation. I still think he should go with cams.

 

[dalatinromeo]

If I were you I choose the cams

 

[CanadianTSi]

I'd say go for the 50 trim.

With the exact same setup at 20psi on pump gas my 50 trim was half a second and 2mph faster in the 1/4 mile than my Evo 3, I even had a boost leak with the 50 trim...

 

[2gGSX]

We all know what the Evo III and cams are capable of (ShapeGSX and the GVR4 are both over 400 whp on race gas), but I'd be interested in seeing airflow numbers on pump gas at 20 lbs of boost (vs their 28 or so spiking to 30+).

 

[bwhughey]

OK, I'm tired of hearing about intercoolers causing lag. Here's the plain old math behind it (vastly oversimplified, but to prove a point...).

Let's say, for nice, round numbers, that your turbo can push 600 CFM through your engine. That's 10 cubic feet of air volume per second coming into the compressor housing. At 15 PSI, that gets compressed to about half the size, so there's 5 cubic feet per second of moving through your intercooler. Let's also assume you're not good at plumbing, and your Schlabotnik Super Chrome FMIC is a wasteful hog, and the total EXTRA volume (beyond stock) added to your intake system is equal to 10 FEET of 2.5 inch pipe, which is 589 cubic inches or about 1/3rd of a cubic foot.

So...if 5 cubic feet takes one second to traverse your intake system, how much extra time does 1/3rd of a cubic foot add? My math tells me 0.066 seconds. That's 66 milliseconds extra lag. If I slapped you in the face for talking smack about intercooler lag, it would take longer than that for you to feel the pain after hearing the noise.

Regards,

Brad

 

[CanadianTSi]

OK, I'm tired of hearing about intercoolers causing lag. Here's the plain old math behind it (vastly oversimplified, but to prove a point...).

Let's say, for nice, round numbers, that your turbo can push 600 CFM through your engine. That's 10 cubic feet of air volume per second coming into the compressor housing. At 15 PSI, that gets compressed to about half the size, so there's 5 cubic feet per second of moving through your intercooler. Let's also assume you're not good at plumbing, and your Schlabotnik Super Chrome FMIC is a wasteful hog, and the total EXTRA volume (beyond stock) added to your intake system is equal to 10 FEET of 2.5 inch pipe, which is 589 cubic inches or about 1/3rd of a cubic foot.

So...if 5 cubic feet takes one second to traverse your intake system, how much extra time does 1/3rd of a cubic foot add? My math tells me 0.066 seconds. That's 66 milliseconds extra lag. If I slapped you in the face for talking smack about intercooler lag, it would take longer than that for you to feel the pain after hearing the noise.

Regards,

Brad

I think the main reason people think FMIC's add a bunch of lag is that they install them and don't check for boost leaks, then there turbo spools slower due to the big boost leak they have and they blame it on the FMIC.

Very Good post though.

 

[92awddsm]

Yeah, I forgot to add my FMIC to that lag equation. I still think he should go with cams.

My fmic created no lag when I was on the 16g. Spooled the same rpm before and after fmic.

 

[kgtalon95]

OK, I'm tired of hearing about intercoolers causing lag. Here's the plain old math behind it (vastly oversimplified, but to prove a point...).

Let's say, for nice, round numbers, that your turbo can push 600 CFM through your engine. That's 10 cubic feet of air volume per second coming into the compressor housing. At 15 PSI, that gets compressed to about half the size, so there's 5 cubic feet per second of moving through your intercooler. Let's also assume you're not good at plumbing, and your Schlabotnik Super Chrome FMIC is a wasteful hog, and the total EXTRA volume (beyond stock) added to your intake system is equal to 10 FEET of 2.5 inch pipe, which is 589 cubic inches or about 1/3rd of a cubic foot.

So...if 5 cubic feet takes one second to traverse your intake system, how much extra time does 1/3rd of a cubic foot add? My math tells me 0.066 seconds. That's 66 milliseconds extra lag. If I slapped you in the face for talking smack about intercooler lag, it would take longer than that for you to feel the pain after hearing the noise.

Regards,

Brad

Amen

 

[importboost]

Coming from someone with wheels, a boost controller, and a turbo timer WTF

havent updated the profile lately, dont get on here much

 

[BaddAssGst]

I would definitely say cams as well. That Evo3 will take you as far as you would make it, especially being fwd and all. Throw a decently built head that can rev to 8500 on with the cams and you'll have yourself a good set up. You'll still have the low-end torque with a quicker spooling turbo and you will also have the good top end, with the cams.

As far as fp1, fp2.. Definitely go with the 2s. You don't want to short yourself out here. They do not idle bad and I know of at least 4 guys that pass emissions with flying colors.

 

[2gGSX]

I would definitely say cams as well. That Evo3 will take you as far as you would make it, especially being fwd and all. Throw a decently built head that can rev to 8500 on with the cams and you'll have yourself a good set up. You'll still have the low-end torque with a quicker spooling turbo and you will also have the good top end, with the cams.

As far as fp1, fp2.. Definitely go with the 2s. You don't want to short yourself out here. They do not idle bad and I know of at least 4 guys that pass emissions with flying colors.

If he does indeed modify the head to rev to 8500 or beyond wouldn't it make more sense for him to get FP2X's?

 

[bullettdsm]

Just to throw in one more vote for the cams. I am running the e16g and the FP2's. Don't know about emissions but the combination makes the ride a lot more "street fun" than a slower spool turbo. The evo gives you that quick spool and the cams allow you to pull in the top end. I ran without the cams (before I rebuilt engine also) and I definitely notice more power in the top end.
While the wife's car has an FP turbo (I honestly don't remember which one . Too many cars ) with HKS's and her turbo spools up around 4700 with tons of power after. But not very street friendly (as a matter of fact, she barely gets into the turbo. She will shift no higher than 4500 and never goes WOT).

I'm a big fan of the versatility of the e16g.
MB

 

[daren_p]

either way you will prob need new injectors to go with it. well depends on what you have now. but if you have the right injectors id go with cams. i dont see a need for a 50trim on a fwd. pointless IMO

Well like my profile says, Im running 750's already & the point of a 50 trim on a fwd would be so that I can pull a Z06 on the highway instead of just a regular corvette . It looks like alot of guys are leaning towards cams first. That was my origional thought but then with all these bb 50 trims now I started to think new turbo. I do like the quick spool of the evo but I don't think abit more lag would bother me that much. As far as emissions goes being fwd I have to do both an idle & loaded test. I know awd's can get aways with FP2's or HKS 272 no problem, but Im not to sure about my fwd.

 

[BaddAssGst]

If he does indeed modify the head to rev to 8500 or beyond wouldn't it make more sense for him to get FP2X's?

Yeah, it definitely would. Basically, your going to want a long powerband so no matter where your at, your making good power. With the 16g, you should be seeing full boost by 3100 or so rpm and with cams that can rev to 8 grand, you are making power from 3k-8k. A pretty nice power band if I should say so.

 

[BaddAssGst]

Well like my profile says, Im running 750's already & the point of a 50 trim on a fwd would be so that I can pull a Z06 on the highway instead of just a regular corvette . It looks like alot of guys are leaning towards cams first. That was my origional thought but then with all these bb 50 trims now I started to think new turbo. I do like the quick spool of the evo but I don't think abit more lag would bother me that much. As far as emissions goes being fwd I have to do both an idle & loaded test. I know awd's can get aways with FP2's or HKS 272 no problem, but Im not to sure about my fwd.

Just so your aware of it, you will basically break your tires loose with any turbo you run. I know guys who can spin tires at 60mph on a downshift. The more powerful turbos may spool slower but when they hit full boost, they hit hard.

It's just something to think about. If you look at the faster FWD times, not 9s or 10.. but 11s, 12s, you'll see most of them run your basic 16g with full SUPPORTING mods. It's not just throwing on a powerful turbo and going fast.

 

[BaddAssGst]

FWD sucks. Sell it and start with a 90-94 AWD.

Shut the #### up. If you can't give anything useful to the thread, don't even bother posting.

 

[1fast97gsx]

I agree with Tsifreek. You say you want to pull a Zo6 on the highway which would mean you need roughly 360 whp or so? I'm just guessing at that number, but I know my friend made 360whp in his fwd and the car ripped on the highway, but at low speeds it was nothing but wheel spin, wheel hop, and a broken diff from it. On a fwd dsm I would do no more than a 16g with basic supporting mods and aim for no more than 300 whp unless you are ready to spend big money on suspension, tires, and lsd just to keep your car from breaking everytime you get on it.

If this was an awd car I would upgrade the turbo first to a 50 trim or bigger, then once you have the money and are coming near to a timing belt change interval, swap the cams. I think from bolting on a 50 trim or dropping in the cams the gains would be about the same, but a bolt on part is always easier and safer to instal than an internal part especially when it comes to removing the timing belt. I would also get aftermarket springs and retainers if cams are being done.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

I agree with Tsifreek. You say you want to pull a Zo6 on the highway which would mean you need roughly 360 whp or so? I'm just guessing at that number, but I know my friend made 360whp in his fwd and the car ripped on the highway, but at low speeds it was nothing but wheel spin, wheel hop, and a broken diff from it. On a fwd dsm I would do no more than a 16g with basic supporting mods and aim for no more than 300 whp unless you are ready to spend big money on suspension, tires, and lsd just to keep your car from breaking everytime you get on it.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Judging from my trap and the butt dyno, I should be over 310 fwhp.. (yes it's a guesstimate; my G50 is at 20 psi) and I rarely have a problem spinning the tires unless I mean to. It's really just a matter of foot control. Since I have had both the e316G @ 20 psi and my G50 @ 20psi, I have to say that the G50 is a great turbo for a street FWD. It spools a little later so us FWD guys have a chance to fight with the clutch/gas to gain traction, and it pulls a hell of a lot harder than my e316G.

the 16G is obviously capable of good street power and manners, but with such quick spool, it was 10x harder to control spin/hop than with a 50 trim.

IMO 50 trim FWD DSM = e316G + cams FWD DSM.. but with a 50 trim + Cams on the highway =

also, I've been on stock tranny for 108k, CFDF clutch for 45k+ miles and my tranny and clutch hold like they're brand new.. this is because I don't do 4500 rpm dumps and wheel hop the crap out of my car and I don't do burnouts (never have, seriously). IMO the guys that don't know how to handle a FWD will be the guys breaking stuff.

oh and last edit, this is on stock motor mounts with tokico suspension and some 235/40/17 proxe tires.. ( I know have prothane's... but the car hasn't ran since I put them in )

 

[spoolup]

50 trim are great turbos, even on a FWD, a 60 trim is also a great choice, with a bit more pull top end and more so on race fuel. I was thinking of going huge, but I think a full garrett 60 trim is going to be my christmas present. Then cams. A local DSMer ran a 11.74 stock bottom end, 262's, FWD with 24.5" slicks and 4200ft elevation. the car seriosuly hauls ass. Even on pump it is fast. I do burn outs only when heating up the slicks, but I am also on the stock suspension. (hopefully that changes too). Simliar to what blckspoolin says, ANYONE who does not know what they are doin will break stuff. Sure the burnouts arent great on the tranny nor is the 5750 RPM launches but I get 0 (ZERO) hop, and have been racing a few season already. Just regualr maintance and such, tranny is starting to have problems but 130K miles and racing every weekend is bound to do something. I figure its a small price to pay for the car I love./

However, anyway you choose, a 50/60 trim is EFFICIANT on pump, and you will not be dissapointed with your results. And that sucks that they will check your car with out emissions actually being due, dont know if its legal (IE someone actually fought it for legit reasons). I can give you a link to the video if you want Daren just PM me for the address if you decide you would like to me to host it. I just dont have a lot of bandwidth to play with right now.