VRP Tubular Manifold

[mlopez]

Who sells it? Thanks

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

I saw turbotrix selling the VRP Intake Manifold but don't see and exhaust manifold.

 

[nanokpsi]

Who sells it? Thanks

Somebody must read Dsport There is an artile in there about a 9 sec 1g and he runs that mani. I thought i looked really nice when i saw it also

 

[spoolintsi92]

haha im reading Dsports now i just picked it up cuzz of the Talon on the cover imo.. looks hela nice if any one knows were they sell it let me know to thanks

 

[DSMu4ia]

You will make more power with one from Shearer.

www.shearermotorsport.com

 

[MNGSX]

They are right about the collector design but the engine bay is packed enough and equal length does'nt matter.... There is more exhaust velocity without the octopus look.


I'd look at these.

http://www.koumotorsports.com/new_products.html


Best would be runners like those above TIG welded to a burns stainless collector.... Oh crap.. I have a welder... Looks like a project...

 

[DSMu4ia]

They are right about the collector design but the engine bay is packed enough and equal length does'nt matter.... There is more exhaust velocity without the octopus look.


I'd look at these.

http://www.koumotorsports.com/new_products.html


Best would be runners like those above TIG welded to a burns stainless collector.... Oh crap.. I have a welder... Looks like a project...

Those look like crap IMO. The runners need paired on a DSM manifold.

These must be similar to OBX, SSAutochrome, etc. You simply can not make a decent manifold for that cheap. No way, no how.

 

[MNGSX]

Those look like crap IMO. The runners need paired on a DSM manifold.

These must be similar to OBX, SSAutochrome, etc. You simply can not make a decent manifold for that cheap. No way, no how.

In another thread someone who owns that brand who has seen the SSA and the other crappy ones say it is much better.

There are like 20x as many welds on this thing.

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Uncecessary turns etc. The stock manifold makes a 90 and becomes a colector in the thickness of a pancake. That is where the power loss is. All you need is as few gradual bends as possible and a better collector.. The scavenging effects of equal length do not apply at 20psi exhaust manifold pressures, nor 10 or 30psi for that matter... Equal length, steped primaries... yadda yadda is all non turbo header stuff. All they have up right now is a car gaining 2mph in 1/4...

Does the original cast T3/T4 turbonetics DSM manifold look like corkscrew.... No.

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They are'nt autochromes but a new product....

Honestly I'd order a 1/2 built one and finish it from there myself with this collector and it would outperform both of them.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeCollectors/TurboCollectors/turbocollectors.html

 

[mlopez]

You will make more power with one from Shearer.

www.shearermotorsport.com

Yeah I was looking at those. I think I'm gonna go with one of those. Or I might just have a local guy I know make me one just like that one for cheaper. Thanks

 

[DSMu4ia]

In another thread someone who owns that brand who has seen the SSA and the other crappy ones say it is much better.

There are like 20x as many welds on this thing.


Uncecessary turns etc. The stock manifold makes a 90 and becomes a colector in the thickness of a pancake. That is where the power loss is. All you need is as few gradual bends as possible and a better collector.. The scavenging effects of equal length do not apply at 20psi exhaust manifold pressures, nor 10 or 30psi for that matter... Equal length, steped primaries... yadda yadda is all non turbo header stuff. All they have up right now is a car gaining 2mph in 1/4...

Does the original cast T3/T4 turbonetics DSM manifold look like corkscrew.... No.


They are'nt autochromes but a new product....

Honestly I'd order a 1/2 built one and finish it from there myself with this collector and it would outperform both of them.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeCollectors/TurboCollectors/turbocollectors.html

There have been quite a few tests done on manifolds, such as equal-length versus log-style, and how they compare. Results are DRAMATIC.

I know Shearer personally, they gained alot more than just 2mph, but then again, if that's all the website says, then it must be true. Actually on bean's car, they got 4-5 more mph, at a mid 130mph setup this is an EASY 50whp. This is with a turbo that's completely maxed out, and running VERY near or over it's rating.

Here's the car in question:

http://www.shearermotorsport.com/gallery/bean/images/DSCN0220.jpg

When I see manifolds like that Kou I cringe. They MUST be using inferior products to get prices that cheap. And when I see things like bracing holding the collector to the turbine flange, that's just begging for cracks. Proper way to brace a manifold is to mount the turbo with a tripod and a heim joint. Metals MUST be allowed to expand.

Also, the runners are not paired, go quote some more of your engineering books which you are famous for around here and tell me what happens when this happens.

And I can tell you one thing, if I was running a stroker or a 2.4, there's no way in hell I would run anything sort of a completely tubular and properly collected manifold. Check out a dyno graph of a few running stock manifolds and aftermartket manifolds, big gains to be found up top.

Any anyone who would buy from Burns must have more money than brains, there are equally good collectors out there to be bought, at WAY less money.

 

[rjgeier]

I wouldn't say a tubular is the best manifold to buy. Cast manifolds flow good amounts, as well as being cheaper, and less prone to cracking.

The HKS cast manifold(not longer availible), is the best manifold on dsm's bar none.

 

[Lunch_Box]

I wouldn't say a tubular is the best manifold to buy. Cast manifolds flow good amounts, as well as being cheaper, and less prone to cracking.

The HKS cast manifold(not longer availible), is the best manifold on dsm's bar none.

I wouldn't say it is best in all ways.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

Any anyone who would buy from Burns must have more money than brains, there are equally good collectors out there to be bought, at WAY less money.

Could I please get some links to those collectors. Burns' prices are pretty high but I agree that a good collector is neccesary for maximum performance.

MNGSX - I'd like to see some proof that equal length runners are for NA applications only and that they couldn't really help a turbo engine. I was under the impression that the scavenging effect was produced by timing the sonic pulse to the target RPM's advantage. Obviously the heat will greatly affect the speed of sound but the density shouldn't all that much. After all aren't these basically the same waves we tune for on the intake side?

 

[NDgsx]

Backpressure average does not matter, it is the pressure at the port during the actual time period that the valve is opening. I'm about halfway through "Scientific design of exhaust and intake systems" by Smith and Morrison (the book Burn's recomends), there is a lot of interesting stuff in there. It makes you think of things in a whole new way and some of the results are not what you would expect.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

So you're saying I'm on the right track?

Sounds like an interesting book, maybe I'll have to read that one next. I just started working on "Internal Combustion Engine Fundementals" by John B. Heywood. It's like 900+ pages so I'll be awhile. It's definately a good one though.

 

[lambertvr4]

I've heard a lot of good things about these manifolds on Hondas and 240s.
http://www.full-race.com/pd_manifolds.html
The exhaust manifold for the Eclipse looks very similar to the Shearer. I know these are pricey, but the quality is definitely nice. The welds are done by machine. I looked at these at SEMA and I was impressed. I don't have one though, so make up your own mind whether they're worth the dough.

I'm all for having good parts, but sometimes we get a little ridiculous bench racing. Show some respect for each other. Try to learn. Until you have a car that runs 9s you really won't know exactly what parts are needed and why. You may have suggestions and reasons but that's no more valid than anyone elses opinion. There's no reason to slam people or products for the sake of discussion. Share your experiences, but don't assume they are the only correct ones. Relax a little and enjoy the DSMs and the community. It's a lot more fun for everyone that way.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

They are right about the collector design but the engine bay is packed enough and equal length does'nt matter.... There is more exhaust velocity without the octopus look.


I'd look at these.

http://www.koumotorsports.com/new_products.html


Best would be runners like those above TIG welded to a burns stainless collector.... Oh crap.. I have a welder... Looks like a project...

Looks exactly like the SSA Manifold and O2 housing on ebay to me

 

[MNGSX]

There have been quite a few tests done on manifolds, such as equal-length versus log-style, and how they compare. Results are DRAMATIC. .

Jesus fricking christ. DID I EVER say a LOG was better... HMM No.. I said the colector and sharp angle of the stock manifold sucks.

Runner length, diameter and collector design does matter but you dont have to sit and agonize if every runner is'nt the same length down to the millimeter.

I'd love to see tests using the same collector and diameter runners that actually show a gain when all runners are the same length vs one with differences even at 1".

Unequal length headers are not log manifolds.

As straight a shot to the turbine housing as possible will put alot more energy into the turbine wheel. This will greatly outweigh anything to be gained by twisting and turning each runner to get them the same length.

When I see manifolds like that Kou I cringe. They MUST be using inferior products to get prices that cheap. And when I see things like bracing holding the collector to the turbine flange, that's just begging for cracks. Proper way to brace a manifold is to mount the turbo with a tripod and a heim joint. Metals MUST be allowed to expand. .

1. I just saw a guy in another thread with the kou...
2. He said it "was affordable and better than the SSA"... Personally I have'nt seen either and dont think any tubular manifold I have seen yet is worth it. BR's conquest is in the single digits on a ported stock manifold and an internal gate turbo.
3. The double slip on the burns is a perfect solution to expansion.

Also, the runners are not paired, go quote some more of your engineering books which you are famous for around here and tell me what happens when this happens. .

It is a 4-1 collector... It is'nt a 4-2-1 collector... They are paired no matter what. With the 4-1 it does'nt matter.. Now with the 4-2 twin scroll turbo collector by burns I posted yes it matters alot. On the 4-1 it does'nt matter not one bit since they all enter the same distance from the centerline of the same venturi.

And I can tell you one thing, if I was running a stroker or a 2.4, there's no way in hell I would run anything sort of a completely tubular and properly collected manifold. Check out a dyno graph of a few running stock manifolds and aftermartket manifolds, big gains to be found up top. .

I'd never run a 2.4 or stroker....... I can get more VE ( like lbs/min air) thru something with the 88mm stroke and do it with more mechanical efficency. In fact I have a few tricks that will produce as big of a low end as a stroker just by virtue of making the rotating and reciprocating assembly so efficient it nets nearly the same low to mid rpm tq. Less HP into wearing things out = more at the crank.

Any anyone who would buy from Burns must have more money than brains, there are equally good collectors out there to be bought, at WAY less money.

Ok and anyone who'd prefers FP30's to TC.com must have more money than brains too...

 

[MNGSX]

Could I please get some links to those collectors. Burns' prices are pretty high but I agree that a good collector is neccesary for maximum performance.

I'd love to see a cheap collector that can hang with a burns collector too... I'd buy it.

MNGSX - I'd like to see some proof that equal length runners are for NA applications only and that they couldn't really help a turbo engine. I was under the impression that the scavenging effect was produced by timing the sonic pulse to the target RPM's advantage. Obviously the heat will greatly affect the speed of sound but the density shouldn't all that much. After all aren't these basically the same waves we tune for on the intake side?

Here you go

http://www.tantrumwerks.com/html/Split DP support theory.pdf

N/A cars: As most of you know, the design of turbo exhaust systems runs counter to exhaust design for n/a vehicles. N/A cars utilize exhaust velocity (not backpressure) in the collector to aid in scavenging other cylinders during the blowdown process. It just so happens that to get the appropriate velocity, you have to squeeze down the diameter of the discharge of the collector (aka the exhaust), which also induces backpressure. The backpressure is an undesirable byproduct of the desire to have a certain degree of exhaust velocity. Go too big, and you lose velocity and its associated beneficial scavenging effect. Too small and the backpressure skyrockets, more than offsetting any gain made by scavenging. There is a happy medium here.

For turbo cars, you throw all that out the window. You want the exhaust velocity to be high upstream of the turbine (i.e. in the header). You'll notice that primaries of turbo headers are smaller diameter than those of an n/a car of two-thirds the horsepower. The idea is to get the exhaust velocity up quickly, to get the turbo spooling as early as possible. Here, getting the boost up early is a much more effective way to torque than playing with tuned primary lengths and scavenging. The scavenging effects are small compared to what you'd get if you just got boost sooner instead. You have a turbo; you want boost. Just don't go so small on the header's primary diameter that you choke off the high end.

It is completely different.. Like how intake plenum volume only changes spool time and before boost performance. You will make more power with runners about the same length or near the same length than with runners exactly the same length that twist and turn everywhere. The gains of maintaining or increasing the velocity are greater.

The runner length has effects but nowhere near the same degree as on a non turbo engine. On NA equal length is a big difference... On TC it is splitting hairs. If X is the right length and the runners vary a bit like + or - 1" from that length across the manifold but you have really good runner flow coeficients and collector design you'd be very hard pressed to show any difference.

 

[silverbulletAWD]

I see..., Once again MNGSX brings some good info to the table, and once again I thank you. I don't know how you find some of this stuff, It really is quite impressive... You must have more spare time than I do.

I always just figured that by timing the negative wave to reduce backpressure at EVO would be benificial enough to make it worth the work and maybe even allow some better cam design but I definately see the short runner guy's points now. Maybe I'll try a short runner manifold first and later in the season build the contraption I've had been planning on starting on in the near future later. I'll have enough "theory" hitting the pavement this spring as it sits...

Well then I guess the only question I have left is why do we see such crazy long exh. mani.'s on all of the big pro FWD cars now? That's what had originally got me going on this whole long-tuned runner idea in the first place.

 

[MNGSX]

I see..., Once again MNGSX brings some good info to the table, and once again I thank you. I don't know how you find some of this stuff, It really is quite impressive... You must have more spare time than I do.

I always just figured that by timing the negative wave to reduce backpressure at EVO would be benificial enough to make it worth the work and maybe even allow some better cam design but I definately see the short runner guy's points now. Maybe I'll try a short runner manifold first and later in the season build the contraption I've had been planning on starting on in the near future later. I'll have enough "theory" hitting the pavement this spring as it sits...

Well then I guess the only question I have left is why do we see such crazy long exh. mani.'s on all of the big pro FWD cars now? That's what had originally got me going on this whole long-tuned runner idea in the first place.

It probably does work... However.. One tube being 12" and another 13" another 12.25" etc etc does'nt matter...

The point is don't make a corkscrew or bust a vein out of your head to make them all the exact same length dead on.

You wont loose as much velocity with 1 minor and one major bend per runner at any length as you will with 4-5 bends per runner...

Also the pro FWD cars are so competitive the minimal gain per the hassle is worth it and the budget allows it. For the rest of us we should spend our time looking at the 1000's of other places those guys found power in an amount far above the hp crumbs they got from tuned length primaries... Yes it matters but not to anyone but a pro race team.

I'm getting big into the Tech side because I'm way into science and tech.. I have some buisness ideas and it beats alot of other jobs.

 

[NDgsx]

So you're saying I'm on the right track?

Sounds like an interesting book, maybe I'll have to read that one next. I just started working on "Internal Combustion Engine Fundementals" by John B. Heywood. It's like 900+ pages so I'll be awhile. It's definately a good one though.

That is next on my list of books to read, does it have much direct information on turbocharged engines?
You might be, but without thorough testing there is no way to know. They do describe a way to make a gauge using mercury tubes and reference them off the crank in the book, but it is rather complex and combursome. You would have to have the engine out of the car to run a belt off the crank too. If you had a program that could log pressure at a very fast rate, with the TDC sensor you might be able to do the same thing. It would be a PITA anyway you look at it.
Unfortunetly there isn't any turbo info in the book as it was written quite some time ago, never the less it's an interesting read.

 

[DSMu4ia]

I'd love to see a cheap collector that can hang with a burns collector too... I'd buy it.

Full Race sells them.

 

[anconover]

those KOU manifolds are SS autochrome manifolds. If you even look, the 'KOU shop car' is the car featured in the SS autochrome ebay ads. Theyre the same thing.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Another collector for sale:

http://www.rank1racing.com/

And another:

http://www.shearermotorsport.com/products/smp-02-006.htm