Turbo Modification Question

[LiquidTSi91]

Ok, so I have looked at pretty diagrams of how this whole turbo thing works... My only question is why use the exhaust gas to spin the impeller of the turbine??? It creates backpressure and causes turbo-lag unless you go nitro. What if you implimented a high-rpm electric motor that could spin it? Or better yet replace the impeller with a vaccum turbine (modified to take the heat, of course) from those new Orecks or whatever that can pick up 70lb bricks I know this sounds far fetched, but I have been wondering. Maybe even just limit the electric system to the first 2500 rpms until there is enough pressure for the turbo so you could eliminate the lag.
Oh, and the secondary idea was to place a lower volume vac-system to pull the air out the exhaust and eliminate the back pressure that way *shrugz* I'm open to any debate on the up/downsides of this plan before I try to impliment it.

Lewis

 

[IPT]

How would you run the electric motor?? Most likely will the alternator and you would need a larger alternator to do that will. The alternator causes parsitic loss you would loose HP.

Garrett does have an electric "motor" on a turbo to help Prespool the turbo to get it going.

 

[EuroGSTSpyder]

an dhow would you make it set rpm on the motor to create right ammount of air going in? You cant have it fullflowing all the time..would not work..neds to build more bosot when needed and vice versa...?

Idea is good..but making it happen ...is another.*S*

 

[LiquidTSi91]

It wouldnt have to be a monster sized motor or anything.... Maybe a 3 Ampere-5 ampere drain... And that would only be if you wanted to use it exclusively without using the exhaust gas after the first few kRPM. And I thought about the variance by the RPMs. You would have to put in a sensor or feed off of the RPM sensor that is already in place for the engine to make it adjust accordingly with a variable resistor (like a smart dimmer switch)
Anyhow, the thing he mentions about Garrett's is more of my mindset... Just getting rid of that damn turbo lag on the bigger turbos would be nice, although I think the potential for electric is pretty high.

 

[EVILGSX]

If you think about it, the motor idea to run the turbo is kinda like a supercharger idea. Well not really. But on the sc you use the pulleys to spin the impeller createing the intake suction. So putting a electric motor to help spin the turbo idea is somewhat the sc idea but using the engine itself for suction power instead of a whole seperate motor.

Shea

 

[Bohrn]

I had a similar idea a few years back. I had no money to impement it,so I forgot about it.

Then a magazine, (turbo and tech,Hot Rod or some other tuning mag) did try this. And they didnt low budget it, they tried really hard to make it work.

Tried is the operative word here, as it was only marginally sucessful. It cost around $3000 US 10 years ago, made 6psi at best, was very noisy, and cost around 20hp in parasitic loss due to the 110 amp alternator working its butt off to feed the big rare-earth motor. While it wasn't dismal, it has been put out to pasture and no one has had any success since.

If electric motor technology drastically changes, maybe this will be viable, but it was still laggy, noisy, and low boost. With the same costs involved.

 

[NosLaser]

It has been done before and didn't work that well.

 

[LiquidTSi91]

Ok, kewl, so it has been tried by real engineers, I doubt I could do much better so I'll piddle a bit and let you guys know what happens, but I'll try. hehehe (yes I have too much time on my hands)

Lewie

THANKS FOR THE INPUT!!!!!

 

[Pete]

A turbocharger uses expanding exhast gases to spin turbine wheel in two ways. It not only uses exhaust gas pressure , but also the heat energy. It uses two different forms of spent energy to increase the mean effective pressure in cylinder. If you are going to spend your time think about using the heat energy also.

 

[greyforestgst]

pretty much the same thing as a supercharger

except instead of belts powering turbine its belts powering battery powering turbine

turbo owns

 

[Pete]

Not really.
You do not have to use belts. You can use your imagination.
What about a heat powered battery powering turbine.

 

[Pete]

HP is determined three way.
Total volume of engine (displacement)
Revolutions of the crank shaft (r.p.m.)
Mean effective pressure in cylinder (m.e.p.)
HP=Displacementxrpmxm.e.p.

There are many ways to gain HP you are concentrating on the m.e.p. !
Mean effective pressure of the cylinder is contolled by many
variables. Think of it as two sides. Intake and Exhaust
Intake -How the enviroment inside the cylinder is created and how it gets there. The turbocharger is a major player in delivery! It can be designed to control that enviroment.
Exhaust -Exhaust gas housings (From engine exhaust port side back)
exhaust manifold, tubine housing,and being that a turbocharger does not
like anything back of it so the most efficient way to get rid of it.
I concentrate on this process everyday. My name is Pete, I work at
Extreme Turbo. The company that is offering a dual ball bearing
turbo built to the winners specs and a 12-month sponsorship for
all parts you need at our cost. We sponsor Sean Glazer, who got a
chance to see the turbo design of the grandprize yesterday, and also will be showing his new car to every one in Maple Grove today. His new
car is one of the sickest things on this planet! Talk about design. We
sponsor others and I am going to post about later.

 

[crankbender]

huh.....free stuff??? mmmmm turbo....mmmmmm donut.

seriously tho what is this about a contest/whatever for sponsorship?

 

[Pete]

Go to home page look at the top and click on banner. We have added
more prizes to list that have not been updated yet, and are still
collecting prizes.

We are also taking suggestions! What do you want? What is something
that would make you want to enter contest?

If you have questions will answer.
If you have answers to my questions will try to get it.

 

[LiquidTSi91]

So, Pete, what about using a lesser vaccum to reduce the backpressure in the exhaust? Say just before or just after the Cat-Back a system to pull the air on out of the system so that it reduces the resistance? I'm pissed at my Talon now (something is making it cook fuel management chip and computer *growl*) and I've already dropped too much money into the thing, so it wont be getting fixed for a while, but I'm still interested in the design and future of turbo vehicles....

 

[Pete]

Reducing backpressure by use of a vacuum. The small amount of
backpressure caused by the turbine wheel does waste some engine power. The amount is so negligable that it is normally not taken into
consideration. To suck start the turbine wheel is an interesting idea, but
the vacuum would need to be able to either withstand the exhaust gases or have a bypass valve. The bypass valve could be opened whenever there is backpressure to start sucking, and once the sucking works and the gases are coming shut and let the exhaust continue. To go through
the cat would probably not be the best place. I would rather mount it
someplace closer to the turbine wheel. The closer it is to the turbine wheel the more effect it will have. I am very interested in your quest
so keep the ideas coming.

 

[Boosted1gDSM]

Well, call me a dumb-ass, but a year and a half ago i was broke and driving a Honda CRX. Anyway, one day i had the crazy idea of making an electic supercharger. except i dint have an electric blower. I came up with the brilliant idea of tubing a gas powered leaf blower into my intake pipe and driving like that. Well aside from having a leaf blower sitting in my passenger seat and sum tubing running out the window and under my hood, i dint really notice any difference. I guess u could call me a dumbass, or maybe just a 17-year-old tryna do sumthing inginuative. eh well

 

[LiquidTSi91]

hehehe, well it was worth a try *laffs* probably were losing most of the air somewhere before the engine because of the intake not being designed to take the pressure so it leaked some.

Pete: I agree about the high temp and the having to have a wastegate for the vaccum.. My mind is still ticking away and trying to figure out how to impliment it, but currently the only running vehicle I have to try it on is a NT Protege5 so I doubt I'd see much effect if any. Oh, by the way, know anyone that's hiring?? I'm tred of doing fiber optics work for Worldcom....

 

[4Banger]

Turbos do create a lot of backpressure, usually on small street turbo you have more backpressure than boost, on large racing turbos (usually with nitrous) you get something called crossover, that means that the pressure on the intake manifold is higher than the pressure on the exhaust manifold and that creates a lot of power. That's why turbocharged cars can run without any exhaust at all, if you do the same on a N/T car you can loose power.
Turbos are more efficient than suppercharges, superchargers need a lot of power to move their blowers (a 4000 hp dragster uses about 600hp to power it's blower, a street blower usually sucks from 30 to 100hp) , and they heat the air a lot (more than a turbo).
The concept of using a vaccum sorce after the turbo makes a lot of sense and would make it spool up faster, but the amount of exhaust flow would make it impratical, the most cost effective solution is to instal a free flowing exhaust.

 

[Polk]

Ok some of the big bike dragracers use oxygen to spool up their huge turbos. They use to run N20 but was banned in some of their classes due to the single power adder rule.

Now what these guys do is run a single fogger nozzle right in front of the turbo inlet. They blow the oxygen into the turbo at about 1800psi and it gets the turbo spooling very quick. They have the bottle shut off around 15psi and the turbo takes over from there. I know that some of these guys run as much as 45psi.

Now I don't know or would even try this on a street motor due to the fact that is slamming a ton of air into the motor all at once.

Polk