My Lord, stop hatin' on the 420A...

[prostreetdsmx1]

Look PUNK the reason why many tuners (not most) have a N/A and not the turbo editions is because they arent exactly cost-friendly in some areas. Maybe you dont pay your own car note or insurance premiums, maybe you come from a two parent house-hold or maybe even your done with the whole college-thing, but a lot of us aren't as lucky as you.

why does this come up everytime. almost like we are hated (turbo) because we were able to afford our cars....

im 21, bought my own car, pay my own insurance and pay bills at my moms house since my dad left. i always get some shit from the NT guys about that.

ahwell....just wanted to vent real quick....

thanks

 

[slodsm]

There is some pretty rediculous shit being thrown out from both camps, all I can tell the RS/GS guys is don't knock it till you've tried it. The 4G63 is the best built engine out there in stock form pretty much. The 420A responds well to boost however and can be fun at abour 10 psi, I repeat, fun, not fast. All the NA guy who say that they are accomplishing things the same, just in a different way, not even close. What is the fastest NA Eclipse out there? Maybe a mid 14? Nowhere near what a 4G motored car with half the money in it will run. Kirby, you wanna talk about your Turboed 420? Hell you don't have to wait for defiant to roll over to the east coast, I am already here, when you wanna run em? And the SRT4 is not even close to a 420A, the thing is so stout because the idea came up very shortly before production therefore they simply shoved the best internals in it prior to release so they would not have to worry about it breaking, now, they have had time to R&D cheaper parts and I woudl almost bet a paycheck next years model will not have the same internals, they will be cheaper. I have a 420A turbo and a 1g awd car, there is no comparison. And the Honda by the way, responds to all motor mods better than a 420 motor anyway.

 

[TBSpyder]

Originally posted by JReynosa
Maybe some of us N/A guys got our 420a because we like chrysler. Sure I could of got a neon but who wants to cruise in a 4 door that was made in mexico and feels like you are riding in a tin can. I got the looks of a DSM and the gas milage of neon.


Go chrysler

You're joking right? No offense..but Chrysler has got to be one of the worst car manufacturers out there. And good gas mileage? I've owned 2 non-turbo dsm's now and both got around 23-24mpg...which isn't that great of gas mileage, especially for a 4 cylinder.

 

[JReynosa]

I know the gas mileage is bad. Especially the way I drive.

The 4g63 guys can dis on us all they like but dont compare us to a neon that is just dirty and uncalled for.

 

[Rogue_Ant]

Funny, the Neon guys brag:
'we have the same engine as the eclipse!'



Rogue

 

[Defiant]

In my comparison to Hondas, I meant no put-down, and I see that around here that needs to be explained. I apologize for the misunderstanding, and any for any umbrage taken at my comment. Again, I have no complaint with the 420a, nor with the 4G63 NA. They aren't Toyotas, but they're still good, solid cars built pretty durably.

If anything, it seems bizarre the way Chrysler/Mits did both the Stealth and Eclipses (and Sapporo and Conquests), using the _same_ styling to carry not just more than one "company's" line, but more than one model in each of those lines- with very subtle (foglights, exhaust tips, wheels and teensy stickers) cues to the differences. Does this practice cheapen the GSX, or bolster the ES?

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by Defiant


You sure took that and ran the wrong way with it, didn't you? My original statement stands. Hondas are good, nice cars. They aren't for racing. Neither are DSMs. They're reasonably quick in turbo versions, and in NA they're good, reliable cars. But they aren't dragsters, they aren't road racers, and they aren't rally cars any more than any other STREET car is.

The question is about the 420a, not a modified car. I defy you to find one instance where I've said the turbo is _better_ than a 420a. It's not a comparison that can be made. They're no more "similar" than your blown engine is to stock, and trying to pit one against the other is an exercise of absurdity. Why are you so worried about being "better"?

Yea I guess I ran pretty far on that... Everytime someone compares a car to a honda it is seen as an insult which is what I took here, although you have to admit that it sure sounded that way with the travel toaster comment in there too. I have never asked to be thought of as better either. I believe both engines are really good platforms for performance, although I agree they are not supra's. In fact I think if you will look back you will see that I have never refered to one as better than the other. I just take offence when it seems like someone is trying to bash my motor or speak of it as an inferior platform.

Originally posted by slodsm
There is some pretty rediculous shit being thrown out from both camps, all I can tell the RS/GS guys is don't knock it till you've tried it. The 4G63 is the best built engine out there in stock form pretty much. The 420A responds well to boost however and can be fun at abour 10 psi, I repeat, fun, not fast. All the NA guy who say that they are accomplishing things the same, just in a different way, not even close. What is the fastest NA Eclipse out there? Maybe a mid 14? Nowhere near what a 4G motored car with half the money in it will run. Kirby, you wanna talk about your Turboed 420? Hell you don't have to wait for defiant to roll over to the east coast, I am already here, when you wanna run em? And the SRT4 is not even close to a 420A, the thing is so stout because the idea came up very shortly before production therefore they simply shoved the best internals in it prior to release so they would not have to worry about it breaking, now, they have had time to R&D cheaper parts and I woudl almost bet a paycheck next years model will not have the same internals, they will be cheaper. I have a 420A turbo and a 1g awd car, there is no comparison. And the Honda by the way, responds to all motor mods better than a 420 motor anyway.

"The 4G63 is the best built engine out there in stock form pretty much."
I think we all know this is crap. There are several examples I could throw at you but there is no need.

"All the NA guy who say that they are accomplishing things the same, just in a different way, not even close. What is the fastest NA Eclipse out there? Maybe a mid 14? Nowhere near what a 4G motored car with half the money in it will run."
I hope you're talking about N/A and not a turbo N/T. The fact is a stage 2 kit on an N/T eclipse will put it ahead of a stock GST. There are several guy's in the 13's and 12's with 420a turbo power. And as our aftermarket support grows 11's are in the future.

"Kirby, you wanna talk about your Turboed 420? Hell you don't have to wait for defiant to roll over to the east coast, I am already here, when you wanna run em?"
I have an oil leak to fix this weekend, and some fuel tuning for 18psi. You name the time and we'll run. Remember though I don't run on the street as a general rule so we'll have to take it to a track.

"And the SRT4 is not even close to a 420A, the thing is so stout because the idea came up very shortly before production therefore they simply shoved the best internals in it prior to release so they would not have to worry about it breaking, now, they have had time to R&D cheaper parts and I woudl almost bet a paycheck next years model will not have the same internals, they will be cheaper."
Well the bottom end of the SRT4 is a 420a my friend, with better internals. The point is that with the present internals in the SRT-4 it is a 420a with the right pistons and rods capable of handeling power from the factory. I have no experience with the SRT-4 so I do not know it's HP limits but I'm guesing that 400HP on the stockers is withen reach. Again the whole point is if you choose the right parts as "Factory" parts then the 420a will handle just as much stock for stock as the 4g63. The whole point is null anyway because there are so many variables in the power for cost game. Where you say you don't have to upgrade internals I say I don't have to pay the insurance or the cost of the initial factory turbo system just to go back and replace it. The fact of the matter is your not right neither motor is better than the other, even stock for stock so what's the point in trying to be better. If you put a stage 2 kit on an esi it's faster than a tsi. If you mod the tsi a bit it's faster than the esi, if you build the block on the esi it's faster than the tsi....etc, etc, etc. I'm not saying the 420a is better but I'm not saying the 4G63 is either, it's comparing apples to oranges. All I'm saying is respect the fact that my engine has serious potential and stop saying it's a piece of crap. Let me ask you what have you done to your 420a? Have you built the bottom end? What kit do you run? what PSI? I want to know just how far you have taken your 420a since you still seem to know nothing about it. EDIT just saw a responce from you in another thread that you are running 16psi so I am really shocked at some of your comments. You must have put some real work into your 420a but yet you still see it as second best. You do your thing man I'll do mine.

 

[slodsm]

Kirby, I will respond to last comment first, Damn right I put a shitload of work into my 420A, and I don't necesarily see it as second best, its a money pit, plain and simple. Next, I really doubt you are going to be able to name any examples of better factory motors than a 4G motor, the 2JZ-GTE is about the only thing you can throw out there. Locally here there is a guy Rich running 10.80's on the stock bottom end and still daily driven. Insurance, there is really no difference, maybe 100 a year but once you throw 7 grand at the bottom end and turbo setup on a 420 motor, you better keep it for 6 years minimum to negate the cost of the insurance on the other car. As far as cost, you spend 3k on a turbo, I spent 3k total on my 1g, you say stock 1g to turbo'd 2gnt, I will rape it, I have a 3 inch exhaust, CF clutch, and MBC and the car goes 13.61 at 99 mph with a 1.71 60 ft time. So many cars are running 13's and even 12's? Where, there is one guy on 2gnt with a 420 running 12's and it is with slicks. Right now I am a set of injectors away from deep 12's on my 1g with street tires. still a stock 14b turbo. granted the motor, tranny, and head a rebuilt and the turbo is new but still, stock specs. The argument about the internals of the SRT4 is not what I was getting at. The 420A block itself is great, it is a closed deck, better than the honduh design and will not walk the cylinders under high boost like the H cars and no need for a sleeve. What I am saying in general is, the fastest 2gnt known to anyone aside from Bill Hahn's himself is a high 12, do you know how much money it took to make it that fast? I have just over 8 grand under the hood of my 2g and I can tell you it is not a 12 second car, it will rape a lot of cars from a roll on the street but cost wise, it was not econimical to do that. I should have quite when I was ahead. Lastly, a AWD DSM can and will go DEEP 12's for less than 5 grand including the price of the car, no where no how will a 2gnt ever under the sun do that sue to the fact the turbo and internals will run you that much, then you still have to come up with a car to do it to. No flames, just facts.

 

[lawdaman]

Originally posted by prostreetdsmx1


why does this come up everytime. almost like we are hated (turbo) because we were able to afford our cars....

im 21, bought my own car, pay my own insurance and pay bills at my moms house since my dad left. i always get some shit from the NT guys about that.

Dog I wasnt referring to you or the GST-GSX oweners as a whole. I even said I wanted a GST originally. I'm glad YOU could afford it but I was specifically talking to the guy who I specifically QUOTED, no offense to the turbo-owners. More power to you guys. I'll be joining the ranks of blown DSM's in a year or so hopefully. But still using my 420A.

P.S.
I'm feeling you on the paying bills tip, I'm in the same boat yo.

 

[slodsm]

As far as paying the bills, I don't wanna hear it, I have all the cars in my sig plus a house note and I am 25 in the military. I know how it feels.

 

[darkside515xx]

Let's be realistic, my non-turbo Eclipse has a cheaper insurance rate per month to own than your turbo Eclipse. So instead of paying more per month on a turbo Eclipse, I'd rather pay more one time to make my non-turbo Eclipse go faster. Because over time, the money I spent on modding my non-turbo Eclipse is the same amount of money you dished out for your turbo Eclipse's insurance rate.

 

[Sephroth57]

Originally posted by SnoopySLR

And Sephroth57, I don't know anything about you. But with a comment like that, I'm guessing your a kid who's parents pay for your insurance. I don't know if you knew this, but Turbo cars are a lot higher in insurance that NT. I couldn't afford a turbo when I got my car. I wish I could have. I had the oppertunity to get a 95 GST with 12000 less miles for the same price as I paid for mine.

Umm actually i do pay for my own insurance and i paid for my own car too, 7 grand for a GSX isnt that unattainable if you get a good job. And insurance is a matter of 200-300 $ if that, which is nothing. id rather pay 300$ more a year to drive my car for the fact that when i get on the track im not gonna run a 15 after putting 2000 into my car like a NT would.

I really could care less about what you have to say, my RS looks nice, I have gotten compliments about it, I have beat everyone I have raced in my car, and it has not given me one problem. I also learned how to drive manual on it. I am now moving on as I have my new car coming in, I shall soon say farewell to my RS, consider it a good car, and get on to the V8 scene. Bye

Youve beat everyone you raced in your car? you must have raced a lot of slow people then cause unless your motor is built up or youre running NOS or something a stock or lightly modded RS isnt gonna do much....

Im not hating on you NT guys i own one still and i think its a cool car, but i dont like to myself and other people about what it can do. I accept that its never going to run a 12, and thats that..

 

[Kirby]

Originally posted by slodsm
Kirby, I will respond to last comment first, Damn right I put a shitload of work into my 420A, and I don't necesarily see it as second best, its a money pit, plain and simple. Next, I really doubt you are going to be able to name any examples of better factory motors than a 4G motor, the 2JZ-GTE is about the only thing you can throw out there. Locally here there is a guy Rich running 10.80's on the stock bottom end and still daily driven. Insurance, there is really no difference, maybe 100 a year but once you throw 7 grand at the bottom end and turbo setup on a 420 motor, you better keep it for 6 years minimum to negate the cost of the insurance on the other car. As far as cost, you spend 3k on a turbo, I spent 3k total on my 1g, you say stock 1g to turbo'd 2gnt, I will rape it, I have a 3 inch exhaust, CF clutch, and MBC and the car goes 13.61 at 99 mph with a 1.71 60 ft time. So many cars are running 13's and even 12's? Where, there is one guy on 2gnt with a 420 running 12's and it is with slicks. Right now I am a set of injectors away from deep 12's on my 1g with street tires. still a stock 14b turbo. granted the motor, tranny, and head a rebuilt and the turbo is new but still, stock specs. The argument about the internals of the SRT4 is not what I was getting at. The 420A block itself is great, it is a closed deck, better than the honduh design and will not walk the cylinders under high boost like the H cars and no need for a sleeve. What I am saying in general is, the fastest 2gnt known to anyone aside from Bill Hahn's himself is a high 12, do you know how much money it took to make it that fast? I have just over 8 grand under the hood of my 2g and I can tell you it is not a 12 second car, it will rape a lot of cars from a roll on the street but cost wise, it was not econimical to do that. I should have quite when I was ahead. Lastly, a AWD DSM can and will go DEEP 12's for less than 5 grand including the price of the car, no where no how will a 2gnt ever under the sun do that sue to the fact the turbo and internals will run you that much, then you still have to come up with a car to do it to. No flames, just facts.

You have to understand that the term 1g is not in my vocabulary when I make these comparisons. I'm talking straight 2g turbo here. I do not like the looks of the 1g at all so that is not a factor to me to even think about. Now I admit a stage 2 kit against a 1g will loose due to the weight of the car. And when I say stock I mean stock, stock boost and all. The point is if you have a stock turbo 2g car that you bought directly from the dealer at full price and I do the same with a N/T and turbo it, I'm faster than you for cheaper than you already. I got a lot of very very sweet deals on my car so I'm prolly not the best for a price comparrison anyway. I have around $8,000 in my car too but I got far more than you for my $8,000. I did not spend $3,000 on my turbo kit either. Is your 3k estimate on your 1g including rebuilding the whole longblock and turbo? My car is capable of 12's or lower at it's current build, with slicks of course. Yes there are plenty of guy's at 2gnt.com in the 13's and I believe there are 2 in the 12's. And again the whole point of my post orignally was if the 420a had the right pistons and rods from the factory this debate would not exist. The fact is the only advantage the 4g63 has over the 420a stock for stock is better internal materials, am I wrong? I'm not flaming either I think the 4g63 is a very capable motor and I respect it's abilities, I just wish you would say the same about the 420a esp. since you own one. I don't see either motor as better I see them both as very respectable 4 cilinder motors.

 

[Knoob]

Originally posted by Defiant
Jeeze, I don't hate them. They make very attractive travel toasters, with reasonable reliability and good gas mileage. Kinda like a Honda.

please REMOVE the turbo chip off your shoulder....

Originally posted by Sephroth57
i think you NT guys just got PMS cause you didnt buy a turbo car. most likely you either didnt know much about cars, or it was a gift or something which is why most people have NT, then they wanna do performance and run into problems because all motor is not cheap, and frankly not as effective on our motor anyway to do. My first DSM was a 90 GS, when i bought it i didnt know much about how to make cars fast i just knew that i liked how it looked, and i saw some fast eclipses around and i thought it could be fast. well unless u turbo them theyre not gonna get fast, so i bought a GSX and that was it... no whining about people telling me to get a turbo. people telling me to get a turbo was the best thing they ever did cause now im in a whole world of performance higher then where i was and its more fun to have more stuff to tune and play with. point is advice is just that, if u dont like it dont take it

please REMOVE the turbo chip off your shoulder....

Originally posted by slodsm
There is some pretty rediculous shit being thrown out from both camps, all I can tell the RS/GS guys is don't knock it till you've tried it. The 4G63 is the best built engine out there in stock form pretty much. The 420A responds well to boost however and can be fun at abour 10 psi, I repeat, fun, not fast. All the NA guy who say that they are accomplishing things the same, just in a different way, not even close. What is the fastest NA Eclipse out there? Maybe a mid 14? Nowhere near what a 4G motored car with half the money in it will run. Kirby, you wanna talk about your Turboed 420? Hell you don't have to wait for defiant to roll over to the east coast, I am already here, when you wanna run em? And the SRT4 is not even close to a 420A, the thing is so stout because the idea came up very shortly before production therefore they simply shoved the best internals in it prior to release so they would not have to worry about it breaking, now, they have had time to R&D cheaper parts and I woudl almost bet a paycheck next years model will not have the same internals, they will be cheaper. I have a 420A turbo and a 1g awd car, there is no comparison. And the Honda by the way, responds to all motor mods better than a 420 motor anyway.

please REMOVE the turbo chip off your shoulder....

 

[BlackGST]

Why is everyone arguing? There is no point. Whether it is turbo or non-turbo, it doesn't matter. It is your car and as long as you are happy with it, that is all that matters. Who cares what someone else thinks about your car or the motor?

 

[97eclipsedGS]

there isnt a point to this.....
I OWN A 420A, and this is what i think....

stock for stock, there is no comparison... 4g63 wins hands down, no contest....

my buddy has a 95 tsi awd and he has put about 2gs in performance, not even, and he is running high 12s. i have put about 3gs in performance, and im running high 14s....

he can run 20 psi safely, i can run 10psi.... now, you tell me what is a better stock platform.

now, before my fellow 420a guys crucify me, i must say that i do love my motor, and i am having a great time modding my turboed n/t.... i love what im doing, and im enjoying it. my goal is to have a low 13 sec full interior car w/ a setup not many have..... and im almost there. but im not gonna say that my setup is better or worse than the next dsmers.,.... its simply different, and thats what im after

 

[dsmrunnah95]

What I dont get is why you 4g63T guys are comparing a TURBO engine to a N/A engine? If we're comparing engines, let's do n/a 4g63s and 420a's. Stock for Stock they're even, the 4g63s have a weight advantage (in the car not the engine) but produce a little less stock horsepower and torque. Also a 4g63n/a won't hold much more boost than a 420a because of the compression ratio's, in either engine you have to change the internals to run more boost.

On a second note you guys are also comparing cost's to the quarter mile times. I thought this thread was about engines not drivetrains. Hell give us AWD drivetrains and I bet we could get pretty close to your times. Or take a GS-T, get rid of the LSD and see how it holds up.

If we're comparing two totally different engines, let's compare the RB26DETT to the 4G63 n/a motor.

 

[Initial DSM]

All this arguing and its not getting us anywhere.


Seproth57, you can have all the pride in your car as much as you want, but when it crankwalks, you will not be so happy.

Please stop comparing 1G's to 2GNT's. I own both, and theyre night and day. I know its cheap to mod a 1G. duh. People get 2G over the 1G because they feel it looks nicer, plain and simple. Otherwise, if they only cared for speed theyd get the 1G. 1G is the fastest mod platform out of all DSMs , hands down (and no crankwalk!). Some people just want looks and speed. Like Kirby said, 420 iron block compared to 4G63 iron block save for the internals, is relatively the same, so no arguement needed. Eventually, if you really go mod crazy, youre gonna wanna build up the internals for both of them.

So...a built 420a (done right!) should have the same respect as a built 2G fwd turbo (done right....6 bolt block!) and taking out labor costs, should roughfly be around the same price wise. I am of course deducting the cost of the 420a turbo kit from the cost of the 6 bolt block and its other needly parts to install in the 4G63. Everything else will pretty much be the same (beef up the internals, P & P the head ,bigger intake manifold, fuel pump, electronics, etc).

If I had a 2G turbo myself, and $ to mod the crap out of it, I wouldnt be comfortable throwing all those mods onto a 7 bolt platform only for it to eventually crankwalk. Of course it would prolly be awd, but then I'd mod the tranny too. I'd rather just save up the $ and get a 6 bolt and be done with it, harness and all; but I'm not in that situation. I personally know 3 friends whove gone through this nightmare, and I dont wanna go there. Hence the reason I own a 1G, and am turboing my RS...to 2.4L

And please dont throw in that old argument "well its not AWD, so you cant launch it", because if you do, youre dissing your 4G63 FWD friends in the process. I have 1g awd, and for everytime I "launch" it on a race, thats one step closer to ordering a rebuilt tranny from BM, Shep, or TRE; not a quick mod alot of people on this board can afford.
So my point is were wasting time arguing about whats better and whats not; its each person's preference and what they had to start out with, so to each his own.


Stop the hate! Educate!

 

[LandoAWD]

I'm locking this. You folks need to learn what a community is about, and stop acting like 12yr old girls. WE ARE ALL ENTHUSIASTS!! LEARN TO GET ALONG, OR GO ELSEWHERE!