Ignitions

Blitzeclips · 06-02-2006, 04:24 PM

As I've come across many reccommendations for the MSnS, I had some curiousity as to the ignitons available for our cars. I rarely see aftermarket systems mentioned for the 420a. I know the MSnS controls spark as well, but would anyone know of a great ignition control/timing unit?

I was checking out the FireBall-II by Crane. I'm not sure if there are other and cheaper units, but if so, which ones would work and be compatable with our cars as well. If anyone has some experience or knowledge of cost effective and worthy igniton control, please give some input! TIA for the replies.

Talon ESI-T · 06-03-2006, 06:54 AM

are you looking for ignitions that work with the MS or independant units?

The MS will do everything you need but if you want to run ignition control without the MS off the stock ECU then go with the Crane model. I have heard so many failed MSD units so far in the last 2 years its not funny.

Terry

Blitzeclips · 06-03-2006, 10:26 AM

Independant for now. Sorry guys, but after a talk with Dave at SBR, I'm not going the MSnS route. So basically anything that can work as far as the compatablity and performance goes. I know ingition can offer some ponies with the correct unit.

The Fireball-II by Crane looks great but it's pretty expensive. Would anyone know or be fimiliar with other ignition models that are a little less money?

BTW Terry, SBR reccommended 650's for the 20G. They said numerous times that it is possible to tune 650's with the SAFC. I'm still skeptical. But my problem now is tuning the SAFC for idle with so much feul. It's a 4 hour drive, and I'm hesitant as to even making it there if I can't get the car to run on such large injectors. In your POV, is it possible? Sorry to get off-topic there.

selmerguy · 06-03-2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzeclips

Independant for now. Sorry guys, but after a talk with Dave at SBR, I'm not going the MSnS route. So basically anything that can work as far as the compatablity and performance goes. I know ingition can offer some ponies with the correct unit.

The Fireball-II by Crane looks great but it's pretty expensive. Would anyone know or be fimiliar with other ignition models that are a little less money?

BTW Terry, SBR reccommended 650's for the 20G. They said numerous times that it is possible to tune 650's with the SAFC. I'm still skeptical. But my problem now is tuning the SAFC for idle with so much feul. It's a 4 hour drive, and I'm hesitant as to even making it there if I can't get the car to run on such large injectors. In your POV, is it possible? Sorry to get off-topic there.

How much boost are you going to run? Thats what matters. You could use the 20g and run 5 psi and sill use the stock injectors. I, aswell as many others have not had much luck with the safc. You can get it to work and with a seperate ignition it might work fine. The biggest problem with the safc is that it messes with the map to get more or less fuel. This can advance timing under boost which is not what you want. Also you will need a good way to log and a ton of time to get it tuned. With msns and other aftermarket ems systems you tune to an afr and map allready built into the system. The safc will do the same thing with a logger of some kind. The problem with this is that the safc will make the stock map sensor inaccurate. To much work and money for half the product the msns is. Good luck dude.

Blitzeclips · 06-03-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by selmerguy

How much boost are you going to run? Thats what matters. You could use the 20g and run 5 psi and sill use the stock injectors. I, aswell as many others have not had much luck with the safc. You can get it to work and with a seperate ignition it might work fine. The biggest problem with the safc is that it messes with the map to get more or less fuel. This can advance timing under boost which is not what you want. Also you will need a good way to log and a ton of time to get it tuned. With msns and other aftermarket ems systems you tune to an afr and map allready built into the system. The safc will do the same thing with a logger of some kind. The problem with this is that the safc will make the stock map sensor inaccurate. To much work and money for half the product the msns is. Good luck dude.

I plan on 13psi daily and 18-22psi at the track, depending on prior results and how the car is running. When the car gets tuned, I'm going to assume SBR uses a wideband to gauge air/feul flow and ratio. On that note, the SAFC would help to take feul OUT of the equation. There may not be a pre-set map or chart, but they claim it will take 2 hours to tune my car with the setup I've chosen. Assuming it does advance timing in this case, I've got AEM Cam gears to help the issue.

I feel like an outcast with my feul set-up here. I must be one of the only people NOT using the MSnS with a built motor and 20G. I'm hoping this should pull through for me.

Talon ESI-T · 06-03-2006, 09:18 PM

Cam gears will not allow you to alter the ignition timing. Been there done that. Doesnt work. ECU is too smart.

XMasta19 · 06-03-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzeclips

I feel like an outcast with my feul set-up here.

There's probably a reason for that...our methods have been tested and proven. You're walkin a thin line, and I can't say where exactly it's gonna take you. Good luck, for all you know it will work out great.

Blitzeclips · 06-04-2006, 09:13 AM

Um, I don't know if you guys noticed or not, but Hahn is running pretty close to my set-up as far as feul goes.

Stage IV: Adding 625cc injectors and a programmable engine computer system (in place of the PowerFuel module) to Stage III resulted in Stage IV. The higher boost pressure allowed by the larger injectors and new computer (up to 30 PSI boost operation now available) is what enables Stage IV to produce 375 HP.

I'm getting 650's and using wideband o2 to dyno tune. Also an SAFC. So I'm curious as to how this set-up is deemed for detenation.

Someone please tell me.

Talon ESI-T · 06-04-2006, 09:40 AM

Your setup is nothing like hahn's fuel setup. Nothing at all. Your running an SAFC which has what 7 rpm points of adjustment with a high and low throttle setting. thats basically 14 points of adjustment in the normally atmospheric range. In other words the SAFC doesnt take boost into consideration.

The portfueler has more than 42 points of adjustment for the Boost region only. That combined on top of the factory ECU which had appx another 64 points of adjustment. That combined is a total of at least 106 points of adjustments made by the user and the factory ECU. Your setup is close how?

If you dont understand why you have an increased chance of detonation then you need to go back a re-read every post above until you figure it out. I will not repeat myself. The MSNS has 144 points of adjustment for the fuel and 144 for the spark. Both the X and Y axis of the tables are fully adjustable as well. The Z axis is infinite adjustable to the whole number.

Terry

Blitzeclips · 06-04-2006, 12:04 PM

I have read the responses multiple times. I don't see why a wideband cannot correct if not utilize the RPM points in relation to my feul. What else would a wideband be used for? Thats almost like claiming it to be pointless for me to even use it.

Talon ESI-T · 06-04-2006, 12:47 PM

There is no wideband input on a SAFC therefore the wideband will not correct anything.

Blitzeclips · 06-04-2006, 02:50 PM

OKay, now I see. So what would I need to get to make wideband input compatible? I plan on purchasing the AEM EUGO. How can I MAKE an input for wideband to control these points during RPM s? Would a piggyback be needed ? Some sort of EMS im assuming?

Talon ESI-T · 06-04-2006, 03:11 PM

In order to use a wideband to allow corrections to be made to the fuel trims you will need a standalone ECU. Haltech, AEM, Accell DFI, MSNS ect.

selmerguy · 06-04-2006, 03:48 PM

Terry knows his stuff dude. To reiterate the above statements; The safc does not adjust to map(boost) and only has 7 rpm points to add or take away fuel. Also the safc has no O2(wideband) correction. I am not saying msns is the thing you need but what I and most other people(except slowboy) is that the safc is not going to work well with your goals.

Also, when slowboy started making a turbo kit for our cars they advertised it on this site. A post was made and thier was some discussion about the fuel system thay had chosen.(bigger injectors and the safc) That was like 6 months ago and I have yet to see numbers or hear of anyone using this fuel system.

For grins I tried to tune my idle with the stock fpr and 440cc injectors, with the safc and my wideband. I spent like 4 hours on and gave up. I never got close to 14.7:1 afr. This was about a year ago and I tried again with 550's on a friends and had no luck either. Good luck dude.