420A: Can i reach 400whp?

[FRslimmyjim]

Hey Guys,
So I have a built 420a and basically just have turbo grind cams to do left engine wise. I am trying to decide on what fuel system to go with. I have been reading a lot of threads and not a lot of people like the hahn portfueler. My goal is 400whp minimum. Anything above that is a bonus. I just graduated high school today so i have tons of time to work on my baby. This is my daily driver so it needs to be a little but drivable lol. So can i make 400whp with the portfueler?

[rx7ttlm]

I honestly don't know a LOT about the 420a. But 400 on the 420 might be a bit of a stretch on a small budget. It takes some bucks to make that goal on a 4g63 bro. And if your FWD 400 hp is less fun on that platform unless you like a crap ton of torque steer.

[FRslimmyjim]

Well i have done most of the expensive parts inside the engine. All i need is a fuel system now and i might upgrade my intercooler and might get a bigger turbo. All i want to do is hit 400hp. I am basically working for parts now lol

[jayson427]

from what i read meagsquirt is the way to go but its a little hard to tune at first if you dont know whats going on but link3 is the best. you can get bigger injectors and dial them into your duty cycle and all of that stuff. what have you done to your pcm? you should list a few of your mods if you want help. you can hit 400 with the right set up. you should search a few of the turbo 420a's on here and see how they are doing it. 400 isnt easy but it can be done with a big 16g and the right injectors with ms.

[FRslimmyjim]

I have basically just done all the mechanical work to it. 8:1 wiseco pistons, crower rods, reconditioned crank, crower springs and retainers, ferrea valves, 255lph walboro. No i haven't done anything to the pcm. I have a fmu right now and hate it and really want to get ride of it soon while i have the time to spend on the car. I have a wideband, water temp, oil pressure, and boost gauge. Stock injectors.

[necrotopsy]

short answer:
Yes you can get 400whp with portfueler if you tune it correctly, right size injectors, and running enough psi on a big enough turbo.

[Evo_This]

Lol dude you're everywhere, glad you're getting some help.

[jayson427]

you need to get away from those stock injectors quick that for sure

[FRslimmyjim]

Okay. But what am i looking for at for all that?

[99 gs iowa]

for 400whp speaking from personal experience ditch the portfueler an go straight to megasquirt

[FRslimmyjim]

Originally Posted by Evo_This

Lol dude you're everywhere, glad you're getting some help.

I really am completely everywhere lol. Megasquirt looks hard to install and i have heard it creates alot of problems. Also i heard it was very hard to tune properly. The portfueler is simple lol If i get a megasquirt which one should i get? and also how long does it take to put it in? Keep in mind i actually do have mechanical talent lol This tuning stuff is very new to me though and i have been spending my whole life on these forums reading. If i go with megasquirt what size injectors should i go with?? Is getting megasquirt going to destroy my reliability and make it a b%#$h to drive it daily. Its my only car lol

[rocafellafw]

Originally Posted by jayson427

you need to get away from those stock injectors quick that for sure

I don't know much about 420a's but +1 on the above post. Good luck man I'm sure with the right tune, turbo and fuel you could hit 400hp no problem.

[FRslimmyjim]

Yea i know the injectors definitely have to go. Thank god for graduation money lol

[glowryder]

You need more research.. Lets pretend you know kinda of something and your goal is 450 Hp.

Can you reach this on Portfueler? Yes.
Is it smart? No
Why? Because after ~15 PSI youll need add some way to controll your timing. You can do this by a crane or MSD ignition. and im NOT talking about a coil Pack.
The problem is making them working together.. the tuning needs to be done by some one who knows what they are doing.
Not to mention PF only controls fuel, and has no inputs , like Ambient temp, and ambient Baro. It cannont correct for weather changes. MSnS can.

Mega squirt is the way to go. However like you said, its not a simple install, nor is it simple to tune, there are alot more people with experience, and a few people you can PAY to tune it without issue.

You need to do more thinking in the aspect of 450 is kool and all.. but who cares if you cant get it to the ground~? You need to be thinking about LSD, clutch, Motor mounts, Suspension, .. all the supporting stuff to get it to the ground.

what do you have for mods.. I think by stating "i have the expensive part done" your saying, i have rods and pistons.. well , thats not really enuff.. you should invest in oil control, as well as top end goodies like cams, springs /retainers etc.. Give us a mod list to pick apart.. b.c i think your are under the misguided idea that with an "entry level" built engine (most likely what you have), you can add Megasquirt or portfueler and have a magical 400 Hp. Wont happen, well i wont say wont, ill say IF by some miracle it does, it wont last long..

think about spending 8k, at least for that goal. thats to do it right with the right parts, even then youll be over that price.

Heres what i would do:

-Forged Pistons 8.8:1 is good, but with MSNS if you go higher compression you can tune for it, and make some more power with 9.5:1 Cr
Eagle rods this combo can be had new for ~700 ish
-Crank scraper with baffles 350 ish- this is for oil control and great insurance.
-DCR oil mod or find the discontinued Mopar version oil restrictor - 40$
Mopar MLS HG -40$
ARP head studs 1XX?
crower Springs, retainers and stg 2 cams ~500+
1mm + SS oversized valves 150?
Mechanical Tensioner Setup 250 ( this is a whole timing kit)
Adj Cam gears 180
Machine work: 600 maybe could be more, dont skimp here..
Bearings 150 (main and rod)

Quaife LSD 1000
Southbend Clutch 500
new TOB 40$
AGX and Eibach springs ( entry level setup) ~600 ish
Poly motor mounts 200?
Have your trans checked out- ???

MSNS (go with ms3 if your going to do it) 800 with bells and whistles and harness
Wide band 150+
EGT 125+
Oil press (dont skimp here ) 150
Fuel Press (dont skimp here) 150
FPR 125
Boost guage 50+
Water temp 125+

3"exhaust 250+ depending on fab work needed to make fit and work with Dwon pipe.

Id go with a s20G 600+ depending on where you get it
Log Manifold 200 depending again where you get it
Down pipe, Few options, most require fab. a hahn Eliminator will be ~400
IC, id get a hahn, makes life easier plus its pretty dam good 300+
Ic piping 100+
BOV 100+
fcd 60$
PTE 880 or 1000cc Injectors 250+
60mm TB- 200
200$ in SS line and fittings for fuel and oil line
Wally 255 100

Stopping power: GSX front upgrade 75$+
Upgrade the rears to disk if not already..

If your stock axles break, no worries go get new ones with a lifetime replacement ,, or get DSS's, but they are pricey, i think my stg 5s are 1800?

Im sure i missed things like fuel rail etc. Theres tons of things that you could add to make the build better, but are not 100% required

That would be a good combo. you could get a larger turbo to.. but thats just off my head.. some parts could be purchased used. but thats a risk

I would of course powder everything b.c why spend all that money for plain looking stuff lol

Either way , stuff is expensive to do it right and make it look good. Sorry , im bery protective of the 420a, tired of seeing kids half ass it and give it a bad name b.c they didnt want to spend cash, or understand what they are doing ya know.

[jayson427]

Originally Posted by glowryder

You need more research.. Lets pretend you know kinda of something and your goal is 450 Hp.

Can you reach this on Portfueler? Yes.
Is it smart? No
Why? Because after ~15 PSI youll need add some way to controll your timing. You can do this by a crane or MSD ignition. and im NOT talking about a coil Pack.
The problem is making them working together.. the tuning needs to be done by some one who knows what they are doing.

Mega squirt is the way to go. However like you said, its not a simple install, nor is it simple to tune, there are alot more people with experiance, and a few people you can PAY to tune it without issue.

You need to do more thingking in the aspect of 450 is kool and all.. but who cares if you cant get it to the ground~? You need to be thingking about LSD, clutch, Motor mounts, Suspesnion, .. all the supporting stuff to get it to the ground.

what do you have for mods.. I think by stating "i have the expensive part done" your saying, i have rods and pistons.. well , thats not really enuff.. you should invest in oil controll, as well as top end goodies like cams, springs /retainers etc.. Give us a mod list to pick apart.. b.c i think your are under the misguide idea that with a "entry level" built engine, you can add Mega squirt or portfueler and have a magical 400 Hp. Wont happen, well i wont say wont, ill say IF by some mirecal it does, it wont last long..

think about spending 8k, at least for that goal. thats to do it right with the right parts, even then youll be over that price.

Heres what i would do:

-Forged Pistons 8.8:1 is good, but with MSNS if you go higher compression you can tune for it, and make some more power with 9.5:1 Cr
Eagle rods this combo can be had new for ~700 ish
-Crank scraper with baffles 350 ish- this is for oil control and great insurance.
-DCR oil mod or find the discontinued Mopar version oil restrictor - 40$
Mopar MLS HG -40$
ARP head studs 1XX?
crower Springs, retainers and stg 2 cams ~500+
1mm + SS oversized valves 150?
Mechanical Tensioner Setup 250 ( this isa whole timing kit)
Adj Cam gears 180
Machine work: 600 maybe ###### more, dont skimp here..
Bearings 150 (main and rod)

Quaife LSD 1000
Southbend Clutch 500
new TOB 40$
AGX and Eibach springs ( entry level setup) ~600 ish
Poly motor mounts 200?

MSNS (go with ms3 if your going to do it) 800 with bells and whistles
Wide band 150+
EGT 125+
Oil press (dont skimp here ) 150
Fuel Press (dont skimp here) 150
FPR 125
Boost guage 50+
Water temp 125+

3"exhaust 250+ depending on fab work needed to make fit and work with Dwon pipe.

Id go with a s20G 600+ depending on where you get it
Log Manifold 200 depending again where you get it
Down pipe, Few options, most require fab. a hahn Eliminator will be ~400
IC, id get a hahan, makes life esier plus its pretty dam good 300+
Ic piping 100+
BOV 100+
fcd 60$
PTE 880 or 1000cc Injectors 250+

200$ in SS line and fittings for fuel and oil line
Wally 255 100

That would be a good combo. you could get a larger turbo to.. but thats just off my head.. some parts could be purchased used. but thats a risk

yeah thats a good thing to follow with what he said. he has been there my set up is all motor and thats why i didnt go turbo. if you cant put the power to the ground and hold it with out breaking everything theres no point. so you need to read alot more or your just going to regret the things you do. homework is the key and talking to people that have been through it more then once. your goal is realistic but you need to back it alot more then just reading. go youtube some megasquirt set ups and google it. videos helps alot. i have just 6-7k in my motor without turbo.

[glowryder]

"I have basically just done all the mechanical work to it. 8:1 wiseco pistons, crower rods, reconditioned crank, crower springs and retainers, ferrea valves, 255lph walboro. No i haven't done anything to the pcm. I have a fmu right now and hate it and really want to get ride of it soon while i have the time to spend on the car. I have a wideband, water temp, oil pressure, and boost gauge. Stock injectors. "

Are they oversized valves or stock size?
No cams? then why did u do springs and retainers?
You havent done anyhting to the PCM because its not possible.. you cannot tune or modify our ECU.
I hope you got a REAL wide band. I suggest Inovate if you run MS, as it plays nicer, and you can program it, AEM is ok, but very basic.
I hope your other gauges arnt crap like glow shift. You have to remember, these are your monitoring tools, your monitoring your expensive investment, why use tools that could be wrong.. Autometer, AEM, inovate, all make great accurate gauges.

What Main and rods? Deff not mopar with a reconditioned Crank. I hope they are H series if they are clevites. If they are Ps, might as well forget it. What tolerances are they set at? this helps determine what your oil pressues will be. This leads into restricting the oil in the head. The Mopar MLS hg has a .180 restrictor, this isnt enuff.


Remember, this is performance .. things break for no reason all the time, so dont expect to build it and it last forever.. I have more money in my build then i care to discuss, that, and rebuilding from mistakes, bad tuning and poor machining. Thats why you cant skimp. you will regret it, and your pocket book will take the hit.

[glowryder]

Your also from NY, keep in mind, if they have smog regulations Like cali, you might as well give up. The car would pass the sniff test, but not visual.. so registration may become a bitch.. things to think about.

Oh forgot tires, Nitto 555rs to give ya some street grip 800$.

[FRslimmyjim]

Okay wow. I am not trying to do this half ass and this is what i needed. Finally someone told me a detailed answer. Thank You so much glowryder. I appreciate this alot. Okay so the things i currently don't have are the cam gears and cams (i have springs and retainers because i am buying the cams and cam gears soon and i had them so i put them in) MS of course, egt gauge, fuel pressure gauge (just not installed yet), eibach springs, crankscraper, dcr oil mod, and injectors. I am running a missing link, should i ditch that?? They are over sized valves. Oh and DAMN!! I HAVE GLOWSHIFT!! Why do they suck?? I only have glowshift wideband and oil pressure. Can i keep the oil pressure but change the wideband to innovate? I am not sure about the crank. I bought the long block from a shop that did the head work and all the bottom end stuff. Once again thank you so much for all the help. I really appreciate it.

Oh and i have nexen tires. I have stock axles. Do the evo brakes go on the 420a eclipses?? What does tob stand for??

[glowryder]

If your going Mega squirt, you can ditch the Missing link, as MS has its own Map sensor.

Glow shift gauges are for ricers. they are just not reliable or accurate enuf for the performance world. If you had a stock car you wanted cute gauges on, then they would be fine. Im not even sure glowshifts wideband has an output. Your wide band will need to communicate with Megasquirt to run.

Get Inovate Wideband.
Get autometer for everything else. Stay away from glowshit. bulky senders and un reliable. again, this is a big investment, make sure you have good tools to monitor it. : )

TOB= throw out bearing for your clutch. The clucth and LSD are the important things in that area.. Stock clutch wont handle the power for long if at all.

I would ask them what bearings they used. if they used clevite P series.. then i would have it redone, those bearings are to soft and dont do well in boosted applications.

Did they/you use ARP head studs? and an MLS Head gasket?

Imo, i would want specs and everything from this "shop" . thats how i started, i thought oh , let the professionals do t.. well i can tell you from experiance, most machine shops have no clue about your little 420a.. they find some clearnaces and go with that.. which are not always acceptable for boost application, esp goint for a 400 goal.. I just ran into that same issue with my 2.4 build. I trusted them to know what to do, and they screwed it up royaly. You need to be very intergrated in the build or else your just "hoping/trusting" the machine shop... thats why you will see that most of us build our own. I pretty mcuh live at the machine shop (the new one) to make sure they are doing it right, and it gives me understanding of why they do what they do etc.. just handing it over is just bad.. alot of these places have little to no experiance with building 4cyl monsters.. jst my .02

EVO brakes fit with mods. Its better to do the GSX upgrade. spend the money elsewhere.

i think im going to start building and selling short blocks lol.

[FRslimmyjim]

well i have an old working 420a long block if you want it lol I do have a TOB. Thats kind of obvious when your doing the clutch lol I know for sure they didn't put stock bearings in the block. I know that for sure i just don't know the brand that they used. I will go with the gsx brakes then. Arp headstuds and mls headgasket were used thank god lol I hear you about not doing it yourself. I wish i did that now but oh well. Live and learn. IMO they did give me a ton of paper work and the shop looked like they new what they were doing. I will be getting an inovate wideband but im still not sure about this megasquirt. I have to drive 400 miles every month so i can keep my job at autozone lol 20% discount. Plus it is my only car since i just graduated high school lol. It needs to be driveable and not a pain in the ass. Although i did buy a DSM

[Coldsou]

Originally Posted by glowryder

Glow shift gauges are for ricers. they are just not reliable or accurate enuf for the performance world. If you had a stock car you wanted cute gauges on, then they would be fine. Im not even sure glowshifts wideband has an output. Your wide band will need to communicate with Megasquirt to run.

Get Inovate Wideband.
Get autometer for everything else. Stay away from glowshit. bulky senders and un reliable. again, this is a big investment, make sure you have good tools to monitor it. : )

Well that's a spirit breaker.

[glowryder]

Truth hurts, but Id rather break a spirt then a 5K+ motor..

Portfuer will be worse for driving, as its an all boost, or no boost sort of thing, part throttle is not good. Megasquirt, you can tune EVERYTHING, which means, you can drive it normaly, or spirited or however and not have to worry about it. Thats why its the way to go.. Plus you can lOg, and see whats happening if you develop an issue.I would figure out what they used. Post up what they used. Id be interested to see what bearings and rings were used. And no , its impossible to use stock, since your crank was turned. Stock only comes in Sandard. So we know they used something, what it is is important.

my old Machine shop looked like they knew what they were doing too.. -_-

[FRslimmyjim]

I would way prefer to be spirit broken than my motor being broken lol

Okay. Looks like im going with megasquirt then. It seems like the best choice. So i have to get an inovate wideband, MS 3?? right??, Where should i get it from?? should i get the 6' or 12" harnesses, Should i just get the wideband that comes with it or still go with the inovate wideband? I will try to get the info about the bearings. Hopefully they still have it documented. I got it back last summer lol

Sorry about your engine. That really sucks the big one.

Oh! and what size injectors. I am going to just do an 11psi build now. So ima increase it from my current 6psi. I want to get the system working perfectly before i go balls out. I have mechanical OCD so this thing will have to be absolutely 200% perfect. I have a 255 walboro. Im thinking i could hit 300 with 11psi. Maybe 350?? That's probably a really big maybe with only a 50 trim turbo. I am trying to be realistic here so let me know if i am completely wrong. Thanks glowryder. You are the F%$KING MAN!!!!!

[Coldsou]

Originally Posted by glowryder

Truth hurts, but Id rather break a spirt then a 5K+ motor..

That's a good point. It just seemed like an excellent deal at the time. Once I start modding some more I'll be sure to switch out my gauges.

Sorry for the thread jack but thank you for this info!

[glowryder]

Dont get me wrong, I to like the Led and colors (dont tell!) but, when i spend X amount, i want to make sure i have quality stuff , monitoring my quailty stuff. Anything can fail, dont get me wrong, but they have a very good rep and have been around along time.

Yes you need a wide band with Outpus,. AEM is ok, but some with MS (Like myself, dont like it) Innovate is a little more friendly.

You dont HAVE to get MS3.. its advised as its the latest and greatest, and its got alot of extras, that if you got an Ms2E, you would have to add. Thats why i suggested to go MS3 and not worry. It also alows you to run Low Z injectors and seqential. Good things. You can get it at DIYautotune.com Or Symtechlabs.

Injectors.. well, If your going bigger later.. I would go with PTE 880s. The MS will handle them just fine, and it will give you room to grow.

11 psi will get you about 250-275 ish id imagine (on a s20g). all depending on tune. 6 PSI got the build i finished for 99eclipseGS 205hp. he was running Portfueler. With MS, he maybe could have squeezed more. i always assume ~10 Hp per Lb of boost. Tuning will be Key to your Power, driveability and Reliabilty.

and im a woman.. Jk, just have long hair ; ) lolz

You should be able to seach around and see what others have made with a simalar setup.

[FRslimmyjim]

. Okay i will. I think im going to just get the ms3 so i don't have to worry about it and a inovate wideband and some pte 880s. If i only have 205 i can't wait for 250 or 275!! Thank you so much glowryder. I am probably going to message you with more questions eventually if that cool with you lol I really appreciate everything that you have told me. Thanks

[glowryder]

GL! iMO, poke around here some more, Search and you shall see ; )

get that crank scraper early. Search Ishaihara crank scraper, talk to Kevin, great guy, tellem Cody Sent ya. lead time on his art is about ~4 weeks or more. so order it soon.

[VelocitàPaola]

Originally Posted by FRslimmyjim

Megasquirt looks hard to install and i have heard it creates alot of problems. Also i heard it was very hard to tune properly. The portfueler is simple lol If i get a megasquirt which one should i get? and also how long does it take to put it in? Keep in mind i actually do have mechanical talent lol This tuning stuff is very new to me though and i have been spending my whole life on these forums reading. If i go with megasquirt what size injectors should i go with?? Is getting megasquirt going to destroy my reliability and make it a b%#$h to drive it daily. Its my only car lol

Tuning is tuning, it's the same with PortFueler, as it is with MegaSquirt, as it is with any other EMS. If you buy your MegaSquirt system from a reputable vendor that specializes in the 420A application, and you install it (or have it installed) correctly, you won't have any reliability issues. You can even install it to control just the fuel injectors; that way it's doing exactly what PortFueler does, but you'll have the option to take advantage of controlling the ignition later.

Originally Posted by glowryder

MSNS (go with ms3 if your going to do it) 800 with bells and whistles and harness

"MSnS" isn't a thing anymore. It refers to an outdated version of the MS1 firmware. I would call it "MS" or "MegaSquirt" to avoid confusion.

Originally Posted by glowryder

Thats why i suggested to go MS3 and not worry. It also alows you to run Low Z injectors and seqential. Good things.

MS3 by itself doesn't give you sequential fuel injection, but MS3 with the MS3X expansion board does. The injector drivers on the MS3X expansion board can only drive high-Z injectors, though.

[glowryder]

Yes tuning is tuning, But PF cant do 1/8 the things that MS can.. MS is the way to go. PF is outdated and really for a "friendlier" install. MS can be daunting. IMO the way i install is clean, i like to start with things out.. some dont. So its personal Preff on how "clean" you want the install, the cleaner it is, typically the more work..

Paul knows MS. i dont know the simantics of all the MS versions.. But MS is MS lol.. I would suggest Seqential, so if it takes the MS3X, do it. plus i think you get addtional Outputs..

Im stuck With MS2 with Extras.. id love to voncert, but i think it would require a harness swap...: ?

[FRslimmyjim]

Wait! The expansion board? No sequential injectors?