Turbo kit or custom kit

[eclipsegs2gst]

Ok im looking to turbo my 99 eclipse gs and i dont got a lot of money to spend, so im asking which way would be better, buy a new kit or buy it by parts or the 3rd way buy a awd dsm for around $2,000 stock turbo. im looking for 200whp and or 5 to 7 psi gain.

I thank you reading and for your help.

 

[rstare]

Welcome to the forums.
Look around do some searching and you can find what your looking for.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/312203-i-need-opinions-turbo-kit.html
I love my 420a. But honestly if I found a awd dsm for $2000, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

 

[No_Skillz]

Ok im looking to turbo my 99 eclipse gs and i dont got a lot of money to spend, so im asking which way would be better, buy a new kit or buy it by parts or the 3rd way buy a awd dsm for around $2,000 stock turbo. im looking for 200whp and or 5 to 7 psi gain.

I thank you reading and for your help.

Most 420a owners get upset when you suggest selling it for a turbo model, but if it's an option for you, do that instead.

 

[rstare]

Most 420a owners get upset when you suggest selling it for a turbo model, but if it's an option for you, do that instead.

Very true. I am one of those people, .
But if I found a gsx for $2000 that is useable and I had the money so I didn't have to sell the 420a I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[99RedGs]

I highly doubt you will find a worthwhile 2g AWD dsm for $2,000 or even $3,000, but if you do go that route.

A custom set-up will cost less than a per-assembled kit and will usually have better parts. You pay for the convenience of the pre-assembled kit.

Depending on the condition of your motor (do a compression test) you should be able to get away with 10-12 psi depending on tuning and it usually puts the car in the area of ~250 whp.

Personally if you already own the car and aren't looking for 500+ hp it may be beneficial to just stick with what you have. If you were to sell your ca and say buy a GS-T, the extra money you spend for that platform could hacve been used to build the motor and a turbo kit and you will be in the same potential as the Gs-T and probably start out making more hp.

EX) Your car sells for $2,500. You buy a Gs-T in equal condition to your Gs for $5,000. You now have a FWD car running ~230-250 hp with potential of 500+ hp assuming you spend a few thousand $'s (remember its not as simple as just turning up the boost or everyone and their mother would be running around in 500 hp DSM's). Or you spend ~$3,000 on your GS and have a FWD car with a motor capable of over 500 hp, and probably now running over what a stock Gs-T is running.

If you already own a GS and are planning to get a 4g63 powered car it really only makes sense to get one with AWD since that is one of the main benefits. Otherwise a built Gs vs a Gs-T is about the same in the end. Think about it, at some point you reach the maximum beneficial HP on a FWD car in terms of traction and both the GS, and the GS-T arer capeable of reaching that area.


Now if you get a 1g, you can get away for cheaper than a 2g GS-T/GSX so it becomes more beneficial in that aspect. But for all intents and purposes we'll say you are comparing 2g cars.

It's your choice though, you have to look at what your overall goals are for the car and see what makes the most sense. I mean the 420a is a "neon" motor, it probably sucks...

 

[cs82685]

Honestly if you're only looking for around 200whp IMO you should find a 1g gst in decent shape. Simple bolt-ons and free mods will put you where you want to be and you don't really need the benefits of the awd at that power level (unless you want to drive the car in the snow or might go bigger in the future). Of course I'm also an advocate of a boosted 420a, but for the same price you'll reach the power level you want on a gst/x and can sell the n/t to make back some of your money whereas you now have money invested in purchasing the n/t and will only invest more ($1,000-$3,000) to get where you want in power terms.

I.E.

If you spent 3000 on the n/t and then you're going to spend another 3000 to turbo it, total investment will be 6,000.

If you spent 3000 on the n/t and sell it for 2,000 then buy a 1g gst/x for 2,000 and put 500 into it your investment will be 3,500 (the 1k lost on the sale of the n/t plus the cost of the 1g and mods)

I highly doubt you will find a worthwhile 2g AWD dsm for $2,000 or even $3,000, but if you do go that route.

Well he didn't specify 2g

 

[david-b]

I pieced my kit together for about $1200. Not bad considering I already had the turbo laying around so I was able to spend a little more on the WG and a welder to do my own work. Went cheap where I could, but didn't slack on the important stuff.

 

[cs82685]

EX) Your car sells for $2,500. You buy a Gs-T in equal condition to your Gs for $5,000. You now have a FWD car running ~230-250 hp with potential of 500+ hp assuming you spend a few thousand $'s (remember its not as simple as just turning up the boost or everyone and their mother would be running around in 500 hp DSM's). Or you spend ~$3,000 on your GS and have a FWD car with a motor capable of over 500 hp, and probably now running over what a stock Gs-T is running.

The problem with this argument is the fact that after 3,000 you are NOT going to have a setup capable of 500hp. First off, there are very few 420a's making anywhere near that kind of power. Secondly if he were to just build the block and do all the work himself after upgraded internals, replacement of the small things (belts, pulleys, gaskets, bearings, etc) he's still going to spend close to 2K on just building the block assuming he can do everything but the machine work. After that is a basic turbo kit which will run around $1000 (low estimate if we're including a turbo that can make 500 hp) used and after that is fuel management and gauges which will run in the neighborhood of $800-$2000. Total to have a car capable of 500hp is well over your 3000 estimate. (Granted that doesn't take into account the fact that you would also have to upgrade turbo and fuel system on the 4g63)

Anyways OP, you should really analyze what it's going to take for you to make the power you want with each platform if you're not opposed to selling your n/t. Sure for $1,000 into the n/t you can be making right around 200whp like you want but it really comes down to a personal choice.

 

[cs82685]

I pieced my kit together for about $1200. Not bad considering I already had the turbo laying around so I was able to spend a little more on the WG and a welder to do my own work. Went cheap where I could, but didn't slack on the important stuff.

Just curious, does that include the cost of your SAFC, WBO2, and EGT gauge? Also, are you only using an safc for fuel?

Ok im looking to turbo my 99 eclipse gs and i dont got a lot of money to spend, so im asking which way would be better, buy a new kit or buy it by parts or

If you're going to boost the 420a, my opinion to new versus used is in the thread below

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/312203-i-need-opinions-turbo-kit.html

 

[david-b]

Just curious, does that include the cost of your SAFC, WBO2, and EGT gauge? Also, are you only using an safc for fuel?

The SAFC I had for a couple years before I turboed but I scored for $100 back then. The EGT was installed late last year when I was in an accident and then decided to replace all my gauges for some reason. Also have a logger from back in the days also that I use. That prices DOES include the WBO2 though.

Right now ya, just the SAFC. Getting bigger injectors and a SFMU in a couple weeks.

 

[cs82685]

Right now ya, just the SAFC. Getting bigger injectors and a SFMU in a couple weeks.

So how are you raising fuel pressure under boost?

Unless since you have a 95 you haven't needed a missing link or FCD which allows you to raise fp with boost because you don't have to alter the map signal? I've never heard of it being done, but in theory I suppose you would be able to

 

[99RedGs]

I highly doubt you will find a worthwhile 2g AWD dsm for $2,000 or even $3,000, but if you do, go that route.

A custom set-up will cost less than a per-assembled kit and will usually have better parts. You pay for the convenience of the pre-assembled kit.

Depending on the condition of your motor (do a compression test) you should be able to get away with 10-12 psi depending on tuning and it usually puts the car in the area of ~250 whp.

Personally if you already own the car and aren't looking for 500+ hp it may be beneficial to just stick with what you have. If you were to sell your ca and say buy a GS-T, the extra money you spend for that platform could hacve been used to build the motor and a turbo kit and you will be in the same potential as the Gs-T and probably start out making more hp.

EX) Your car sells for $2,500. You buy a Gs-T in equal condition to your Gs for $5,000. You now have a FWD car running ~230-250 hp with potential of 500+ hp assuming you spend a few thousand $'s (remember its not as simple as just turning up the boost or everyone and their mother would be running around in 500 hp DSM's). Or you spend ~$3,000 on your GS and have a FWD car with a motor capable of over 500 hp, and probably now running over what a stock Gs-T is running.

If you already own a GS and are planning to get a 4g63 powered car it really only makes sense to get one with AWD since that is one of the main benefits. Otherwise a built Gs vs a Gs-T is about the same in the end. Think about it, at some point you reach the maximum beneficial HP on a FWD car in terms of traction and both the GS, and the GS-T arer capeable of reaching that area.


Now if you get a 1g, you can get away for cheaper than a 2g GS-T/GSX so it becomes more beneficial in that aspect. But for all intents and purposes we'll say you are comparing 2g cars.

It's your choice though, you have to look at what your overall goals are for the car and see what makes the most sense. I mean the 420a is a "neon" motor, it probably sucks...

Honestly if you're only looking for around 200whp IMO you should find a 1g gst in decent shape. Simple bolt-ons and free mods will put you where you want to be and you don't really need the benefits of the awd at that power level (unless you want to drive the car in the snow or might go bigger in the future). Of course I'm also an advocate of a boosted 420a, but for the same price you'll reach the power level you want on a gst/x and can sell the n/t to make back some of your money whereas you now have money invested in purchasing the n/t and will only invest more ($1,000-$3,000) to get where you want in power terms.

I.E.

If you spent 3000 on the n/t and then you're going to spend another 3000 to turbo it, total investment will be 6,000.

If you spent 3000 on the n/t and sell it for 2,000 then buy a 1g gst/x for 2,000 and put 500 into it your investment will be 3,500 (the 1k lost on the sale of the n/t plus the cost of the 1g and mods)



Well he didn't specify 2g

See bolded above in my quote... Clearly stated comparing similar condition and body style. So when you say you can sell the n/t and make back some of the money it doesn't really add up

EX) Say he bought the N/T for $3,000, sold it for $2,000 = net loss of $1,000. Then he buys a SIMILAR condition GST (closest comparison) for $5,000. Now he has spent $6,000 and has most likely a close to stock GS-T with the ability to put him in the range of his ~250 whp goal. Not to mention any maintnence work he has done on his N/T is taken as a loss as well, but we'll negate that.

Say he bought the N/T for $3,000. Stock head + $1,500 = a motor with the potential (notice I said motor not turbo set-up. In stock form the GS-T motor may be able to handle that much, but its turbo set-up will not either) of over 500hp (stock head has already been proven there, Wiseco/eagle combo = 750, bearings, gaskets, ARP, ~450, ~300 for deck, hone, bore). Total expense = $4,500, then $1,500 for a pieced together turbo set-up ( for example the one posted in the "turbo kit under 1,500") = $6,000 total expense and the ability to also meet his goals, and requires a less-than or equal-to amount of changes to reach a higher hp amount as the now stock GS-T he has spent $6,000 on (Remember he had to take a loss on his current investment like we both stated.)

I know you are no stranger to a boosted 420a, and have been in the game longer than me, I saw it only fair to compare apples to apples (fwd 2g to fwd 2g) rather than apples to apples with a strong motor but worm-hole appearence. (I think most 1g's are ugly personally). We both also know that 500whp out of a 4g63 isn't as easy as just turning up the boost or we'd see everyone in their mom riding around in a 500hp dsm. There may be more 4g63 cars with 500hp, but in realty your average tuner will only make ~350-400, and in REAL reality closer to 300. In the end the costs are so similar, within a couple hundred $$ of each other, that it is basically worth it to just keep what you have especially since his goals are so low.

I'm not knocking you, it just seems like maybe you didn't read what I wrote and interpret it how I meant it to be interpreted. Which is probably my fault for poor wording and leaving things out. I leave things out because no one in their right mind wants to read 3 pages about this topic. I could have listed each part you need, prices, maintnence that needs to be done, etc. I've done so much research on this you'd think I was being paid (well, I am i guess since I'm at work)...

You gotta pay to play. This is an expensive hobby and every $$ you put into your car is essentially a waste in the first place since when you sell you won't see it back. So if you don't have the extra money to be "wasting" tuning may not be for you right now.

 

[rstare]

Aaron I agree with what your saying, but, unfortunatley there are always unseen costs that people forget about and they add up. Gaskets, vacuum line, oil, other fluids, gauges, ect. (You get the point) Also the build a turbo kit for under $1000 thread, while it is a good thread I think it is nearly impossible to do it for that cheap. Not everyone can weld and make there own I/C pipes, not everyone wants a small smic, not everyone wants to rely on a ebay turbo. And honestly I don't know if you want to do it for that cheap.
As Mike always says "Do it right, or do it twice".

 

[rstare]

So how are you raising fuel pressure under boost?

Unless since you have a 95 you haven't needed a missing link or FCD which allows you to raise fp with boost because you don't have to alter the map signal? I've never heard of it being done, but in theory I suppose you would be able to

The ecu has a 1bar map sensor which means it can't see boost at all.

 

[david-b]

So how are you raising fuel pressure under boost?

Unless since you have a 95 you haven't needed a missing link or FCD which allows you to raise fp with boost because you don't have to alter the map signal? I've never heard of it being done, but in theory I suppose you would be able to

Ya I'm using a 12:1 FMU. No missing link on my 95.

 

[rstare]

Ya I'm using a 12:1 FMU. No missing link on my 95.

You should put that in your profile so people don't get confused.

 

[cs82685]

See bolded above in my quote... Clearly stated comparing similar condition and body style. So when you say you can sell the n/t and make back some of the money it doesn't really add up

EX) Say he bought the N/T for $3,000, sold it for $2,000 = net loss of $1,000. Then he buys a SIMILAR condition GST (closest comparison) for $5,000. Now he has spent $6,000 and has most likely a close to stock GS-T with the ability to put him in the range of his ~250 whp goal. Not to mention any maintnence work he has done on his N/T is taken as a loss as well, but we'll negate that.

Say he bought the N/T for $3,000. Stock head + $1,500 = a motor with the potential (notice I said motor not turbo set-up. In stock form the GS-T motor may be able to handle that much, but its turbo set-up will not either) of over 500hp (stock head has already been proven there, Wiseco/eagle combo = 750, bearings, gaskets, ARP, ~450, ~300 for deck, hone, bore). Total expense = $4,500, then $1,500 for a pieced together turbo set-up ( for example the one posted in the "turbo kit under 1,500") = $6,000 total expense and the ability to also meet his goals, and requires a less-than or equal-to amount of changes to reach a higher hp amount as the now stock GS-T he has spent $6,000 on (Remember he had to take a loss on his current investment like we both stated.)

I know you are no stranger to a boosted 420a, and have been in the game longer than me, I saw it only fair to compare apples to apples (fwd 2g to fwd 2g) rather than apples to apples with a strong motor but worm-hole appearence. (I think most 1g's are ugly personally). We both also know that 500whp out of a 4g63 isn't as easy as just turning up the boost or we'd see everyone in their mom riding around in a 500hp dsm. There may be more 4g63 cars with 500hp, but in realty your average tuner will only make ~350-400, and in REAL reality closer to 300. In the end the costs are so similar, within a couple hundred $$ of each other, that it is basically worth it to just keep what you have especially since his goals are so low.

I understand what you're saying. Obviously if he wants to replace his 99n/t with a 99 gst/x he's going to have to pony up more $$$. But if he's willing to step to an older cheaper to be had car, than he can get the extra performance for what he can sell his car for or slightly more. Obviously it really comes down to a preference.

One other thing for the OP to consider is this. By now virtually every turbo DSM has been beaten on or molested. The ones that haven't go for a pretty penny unless if you can find one of the rare, one owner old lady cars in which the owner doesn't realize the premium they can get for the vehicle. On the other hand, the n/t's have been used by commuters across the nation to sip gas. Although often high mileage (as if turbo models aren't also ) they have not been beaten on or abused as much. You may have a more reliable starting platform in the 420a. I would say you have to worry about destroying your bottom end boosting the 420a, but with the abuse many of the turbo models have been through, you're going to have to expect those to need serious maintanence at one point or another also.

You can save money one way or the other depending on how you do it. Unfortunately, you'll never really know. You can buy a turbo DSM and have the motor take a crap on you in a week and there goes your savings of not having to mod it. Or you can turbo your 420a and have it break in a week when maybe you passed up on that healthy stock 1g which runs for another two years with simple bolt-ons for the next owner

Another benefit of boosting the N/T is if you do the work yourself, you'll be more likely to be able to diagnose problems. If you buy somebody elses crap pile and something goes wrong, you're much more in the dark on the history of the car and where to start hunting to diagnose.

The ecu has a 1bar map sensor which means it can't see boost at all.

There have been cases in which people (usually with 95ecus) have successfully boosted without fuel cut without the use of a missing link or FCD. There's obviously a cause for this whether it be the map sensor or the ECU. Seemingly the ECU, because if it was as simple as swapping out a map sensor for a 95 map sensor you can get for a couple bucks at a junk yard I think that would have been discovered by now.

 

[cs82685]

Also the build a turbo kit for under $1000 thread, while it is a good thread I think it is nearly impossible to do it for that cheap. Not everyone can weld and make there own I/C pipes, not everyone wants a small smic, not everyone wants to rely on a ebay turbo. And honestly I don't know if you want to do it for that cheap.
As Mike always says "Do it right, or do it twice".

There are more options now and plenty of used parts where you can save almost as much buying used versus fabricating though. As I stated in the thread you linked you can have a full setup for $2500 with brand new parts. You can cut in half the 1200 I stated for turbo/mani/downpipe if you were to get used ($600 savings) then you can go with a regular 12:1 fmu for $50-$100 and save another $450+ by leaving out the megasquirt, fpr, and return fuel line (which I estimated at $550) You're already down to $1500 for the turbo kit while still avoiding cheap ebay knockoffs with me using conservative savings estimates. Again though, I'll stand by going with new products for certain pieces for ease of install and for knowing the quality of what you're getting. Your "Do it right, or do it twice" does often hold true when taking on a project such as this

 

[rstare]

Corey; the difference is the ecu. When the map sensor puts out that higher voltage the 95' ecu just doesn't care.
With the 96'+ models the ecu doesn't see boost and cut fuel, it just cuts it because of the voltage of the map sensor.
There is no difference between the 95' and 96'+ map sensors.

Edit: I agree on the $1500 being a good idea of how much you will spend. I spent close to $1900 on my setup, that was with Hahns fmic which is $600, an sfmu with bigger injectors, ss -6 fuel line, ect.

 

[99RedGs]

Aaron I agree with what your saying, but, unfortunatley there are always unseen costs that people forget about and they add up. Gaskets, vacuum line, oil, other fluids, gauges, ect. (You get the point) Also the build a turbo kit for under $1000 thread, while it is a good thread I think it is nearly impossible to do it for that cheap. Not everyone can weld and make there own I/C pipes, not everyone wants a small smic, not everyone wants to rely on a ebay turbo. And honestly I don't know if you want to do it for that cheap.
As Mike always says "Do it right, or do it twice".

Heh, it was kind of just an example. I'm not recommending ebay turbos, but ebay fmic's, used turbos, fmic piping, etc are pretty plentiful.

I think based on my build list, which I know you've seen since I whore'd it out for a while, I too am an advocate of do it once, do it right.

I think the problem is that both of you are taking my post so literally that it makes me look like I have no idea what I am talking about. I'm not a genius and probably know less that you , but I do have an idea. I forget that now days, and especially on the internet, it is wrong of me to assume anything and that I should list everything in bulleted format. If I have any doubt about whether something is clear or not then I should reword it to make it clearer.

To be honest I don't feel like going out and finding links for every part needed with prices, writing a 3 page write-up about how to build a turbo kit on a budget, listing the problems he will have, etc.. let alone no one wants to click into a thread and see a wall of text they have to read in order to understand what I'm trying to say.


I will sum all of my posts up with this, and just forget everything I have said prior to this. If you (OP) have no idea what is involved with turboing an NA car then just sell your car and get a 4g63-T powered car or something boosted from the factory. It takes very little mechanical skill to pull the power out of those cars that you are looking for, and will be less headaches in the end. Personally challenges (within reason) don't bother me and make this hobby more fun. When things get too easy I reach the limits of the project and lose interest fast. When I have put hours of work into something I can really appreciate it ,rather than when I put 30 minutes into bolting something on. Cost wise based on your goals, or even goals beyond that I would say the difference is almost neglegible.

Since this is the internet. Hopefully everyone understands I'm not butt hurt by comments made. Just trying to clear up my POV.

 

[cs82685]

Corey; the difference is the ecu. When the map sensor puts out that higher voltage the 95' ecu just doesn't care.
With the 96'+ models the ecu doesn't see boost and cut fuel, it just cuts it because of the voltage of the map sensor.
There is no difference between the 95' and 96'+ map sensors.

Yeah that's basically what I was trying to say. I guess the question then (since I don't know enough about electronics) is for a 95 which doesn't need a FCD or ML, theoretically, you should be able to just use an safc to increase fuel pressure with boost correct?

Edit: I agree on the $1500 being a good idea of how much you will spend. I spent close to $1900 on my setup, that was with Hahns fmic which is $600, an sfmu with bigger injectors, ss -6 fuel line, ect.

Same here, I spent $1K for the majority of it, then replaced Fuel pump and FMU (with an sfmu) that came with what I bought and spent some money on gauges for a total around $1650. Turns out I replaced the fmu for nought, since it did work fine and the issue I was having was my fuel pump. So realistically, I could have done a turbo setup with SMIC and gauges (not including wideband) for $1200-$1300

 

[Shadow98]

If all you want is 200 HP get a turbo model, it'll be cheaper in the long run. But if you want 300-400 HP either model will be fine; 400+ HP get an AWD model.

 

[rstare]

Corey; I don't know too much about the Safc, so I would guess it depends on how that works. I understand what your saying and it seems like it would be possible but I think there is something we are both missing. Because I have never heard of anyone doing it that way.

 

[bagged420a]

If all you want is 200 HP get a turbo model, it'll be cheaper in the long run. But if you want 300-400 HP either model will be fine; 400+ HP get an AWD model.

+1...but 200hp will loose your interest in no time.

If you like to go fast, your never going to be satisfied(for long)
Thats why everyone is constanly changing their setups

 

[david-b]

Yeah that's basically what I was trying to say. I guess the question then (since I don't know enough about electronics) is for a 95 which doesn't need a FCD or ML, theoretically, you should be able to just use an safc to increase fuel pressure with boost correct?

This is not right. I have a 95 and don't need a FCD or ML. Most 95s don't need them. But the SAFC can not raise fuel pressure. It can lean it out though. You would use a SFMU or FMU and bigger injectors, and then use the SAFC to lean it out.