200 HP>Is It Possible?

[RockyV]

Okay,here's my guestion. I own a 97 Eclipse,non-turbo,automatic. Is it ever going to hit like 190-200 hp without goin' turbo or using nos? My plans are,AEM cold-air induction system,Greddy header,Underdrive pully kit,cams,AFX computer upgrade,port & polish,building the bottom end,& possible blueprinting the engine. I already have a Magnaflow full catback system & a K&N filter installed. Off just the top of your head,what will all this do as far as hp is concerned? Is there anything else I can do to achive 200 hp? Thanks for your time.

 

[GSX90]

With all you mentioned, I think you can easily hit the 190-200 hp mark. Head work is key.

 

[motofool]

200hp is not that hard to reach

u could do the new ecu that howeel just created ,aem cam gears for tuning, aem intake, full exhaust with test pipe and greddy header, plug wires new coil pack and maybe msd dis ignition, port and polish head
new cams, valve train upgrades, then u have overbored throttle bodies ported and extrude hones intake manifold,

those are some mods without dipping into the bottom end....

then u have highcompression pistons forged internals such as rods knife edging of the crank , swaping to a 95 neon style clutch with lightened flywheel and stronger disk,

and then youve got the final gear drive tranny mod (thought thats what they called it) i think its over on 2gnt forums where they mod the tranny to be almost or as good as a manual for gear ratios...

sorry for being sloppy but just wanted to throw some ideas out their...

Bill

 

[RockyV]

But will all of that be possible with an automatic? You mentioned switching to a 95 Neon style clutch with lightened flywheel & stronger disc. I would like to convert to manual,but don't have the money or patience and I don't want to sell my car and buy a manual. Automatics do put out the same power,though,right?

 

[sacestar836]

horsepower doesnt matter unless its a manual, personally

 

[RockyV]

Originally posted by sacestar836
horsepower doesnt matter unless its a manual, personally

Hhhhmmm,okay,thank you for your "helpfull" opinion. Anyone else?

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by sacestar836
horsepower doesnt matter unless its a manual, personally

Ignorance sure is bliss, isn't it. Buschur drives a powerglide automatic. he hits 7's. Yeah, horsepower doesn't matter unless you're a manual.

I owned a 14 second 95 automatic GS RockyV, but I was sparying Nitrous. It's possible.

BTW, I drive a manual now.

 

[Nikita]

automatic or manual doesn't make a difference when producing hp...it DOES make a difference, tho, in how efficiently that hp is layed to the ground. 200whp is possible, hope you have deep pockets tho and understand it most likely will not be a daily driver.

granted, it'd be ALOT easier to start with something a bit more capable...but i give you props for trying.

 

[1TuffRS]

actually the type of tranny does matter with our cars. The auto will not put out the same amount of whp as a manual trannied cars. I know that it is possible with the 5speed, but I dont know about the auto. If you do some work to it Im sure it would be possible as well.

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by 1TuffRS
actually the type of tranny does matter with our cars. The auto will not put out the same amount of whp as a manual trannied cars. I know that it is possible with the 5speed, but I dont know about the auto. If you do some work to it Im sure it would be possible as well.

Actually that's true with any car. You can expect a 20-22 percent loss to the wheels of horsepower with an auto, whereas roughly it's 15-18 percent with a manual. He want's 200 horsepower all motor, I assumed at the flywheel/crank, not at the wheels, because it will be difficult to get that at the wheels.

 

[motofool]

if u want more info on how to get 200hp out of your auto dsm shoot me a line on aim mischiefmaker33 or msn [email protected] and we'll talk more later have fun guys

 

[Nikita]

Originally posted by 1TuffRS
actually the type of tranny does matter with our cars. The auto will not put out the same amount of whp as a manual trannied cars. I know that it is possible with the 5speed, but I dont know about the auto. If you do some work to it Im sure it would be possible as well.

which is why i said "it does matter how efficiently the power is put to the ground".

and yes, the same goes for ANY car.

 

[ninja0331]

Ok, in my opinion, the 200HP mark on all-motor is a very long shot for the Non-Turbo. I'd say 170~180 max if you are on a budget.

Now, with 170HP on a NT DSM, you should fly past a stock turbo DSM by about 4~5 cars, why? You'll be making so much low-end torque that it will be 170HP from idle to redline. The computer and cams in NT is pointed towards making low-end torque, not top end HP, and with 180HP, and launching with a auto transmission wich hardly slips, it wont matter what you race. By the time they catch you the race will be over. Ohh, and your NT DSM is about 400 pounds lighter ;-)

Now, how to get there and still have a good and reliable street car:

If you have money to spend on labor and parts:
- Get high compression pistons, not necessarily forged
- Shave the heads, match the intake ports to the head. Get a thinner head gasket to raise compression.

(The compression alone should help for about 15HP throughout the whole powerband) but requires tearing down the engine.

- Balance the rotating assembly before you put in the pistons and eliminate the silent shaft (good for about 10HP and when coupled with balanced parts, about 15HP through the WHOLE powerband)

- Bore the block to the max, this will increase the displacement and will be good for about 5HP through the whole range of RPMS also

- Get a good competition valve-job and polish the intake runners, should be good for about 5~10 more HP through the whole RPM band also.

- Put in a Header and take out the cat. (good for another 4~6HP)

- Rewire your fuel pump and modify the fuel rail and filter to get the extra fuel you need.

- And for god's sake, throw away that K&N and put the stock aircan (DON'T HACK IT) back in place, you are just drawing hot air in the engine from the radiator fan (120degrees) and it's hurting performance.

This way might be a little pricey, but you'll have a REAL 200HP car that will shoot out of the hole like a mad rocket. Notice that all of these mods give you gains throughout the whole RPM range, not just at 7000RPMs before redline like most other mods do.

Now, the fast and easy way:

Get a $300, used, cheap, 50-shot wet nitrous kit, rewire the fuel pump and get slightly bigger injectors and you have a 200HP car anytime

Sorry, but you can't deny the davantages of nitrous.

 

[Laser-man]

yeah if i was you i would really try to swap that auto for a stick i have a 435h/p 68 mustang but it has an auto and that does not help with getting the power to the wheels so it doesnt help to have an engin producing alot of h/p with an auto unless you are putting out a whole lot of power like drag raceing, and yes i know someone is gong to say something to me for comparing a mustang to a dsm but it gets the poing across about the power dilevery.(the engine came out of a 91 cobra that was drag raceing)

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by ninja0331
Ok, in my opinion, the 200HP mark on all-motor is a very long shot for the Non-Turbo. I'd say 170~180 max if you are on a budget.

Now, with 170HP on a NT DSM, you should fly past a stock turbo DSM by about 4~5 cars, why? You'll be making so much low-end torque that it will be 170HP from idle to redline. The computer and cams in NT is pointed towards making low-end torque, not top end HP, and with 180HP, and launching with a auto transmission wich hardly slips, it wont matter what you race. By the time they catch you the race will be over. Ohh, and your NT DSM is about 400 pounds lighter ;-)

Now, how to get there and still have a good and reliable street car:

If you have money to spend on labor and parts:
- Get high compression pistons, not necessarily forged
- Shave the heads, match the intake ports to the head. Get a thinner head gasket to raise compression.

(The compression alone should help for about 15HP throughout the whole powerband) but requires tearing down the engine.

- Balance the rotating assembly before you put in the pistons and eliminate the silent shaft (good for about 10HP and when coupled with balanced parts, about 15HP through the WHOLE powerband)

- Bore the block to the max, this will increase the displacement and will be good for about 5HP through the whole range of RPMS also

- Get a good competition valve-job and polish the intake runners, should be good for about 5~10 more HP through the whole RPM band also.

- Put in a Header and take out the cat. (good for another 4~6HP)

- Rewire your fuel pump and modify the fuel rail and filter to get the extra fuel you need.

- And for god's sake, throw away that K&N and put the stock aircan (DON'T HACK IT) back in place, you are just drawing hot air in the engine from the radiator fan (120degrees) and it's hurting performance.

This way might be a little pricey, but you'll have a REAL 200HP car that will shoot out of the hole like a mad rocket. Notice that all of these mods give you gains throughout the whole RPM range, not just at 7000RPMs before redline like most other mods do.

Now, the fast and easy way:

Get a $300, used, cheap, 50-shot wet nitrous kit, rewire the fuel pump and get slightly bigger injectors and you have a 200HP car anytime

Sorry, but you can't deny the davantages of nitrous.

Not a bad post buddy, but explain to me how a 170 HP N/T All moto will fly by a stock 4G63 by 4 or 5 cars. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense.

 

[ninja0331]

The turbo DSM's take some time to reach max boost, regardless of how good you drive it, and you can't launch a Turbo at 4K RPMs without wheelspin, not even if it's an all-wheel drive. Besides, turbo cars are heavy, and are made from the factory for high-rpm power.

The cams on teh turbo, the computer and the nature of the turbo make the car strong above 4K rpms.

I've raced a boosted Eclipse with my friend's 1.8 Non-VTEC 92 Integra with a 50-shot nitrous spraying all the way from first gear and by the end of second gear the Eclipse was behind about 3 cars, it wasn't until 4th that it passed me.

Low-end torque and good traction in a lighter car will put up a good show anytime taking off the line. I don't know if it makes sense, but the guys I race in the street don't run slicks and most turbo cars out there spin out like crazy.

 

[xhypno]

The reason why the dsm's are fast high up, is because of just that.

But here is the prob with your statement, and you can look up the specs, But all hoda made engines (4cyl at least) have a very bad torque curve. They don't hit max torque until 5k plus on most engines. Yes there are some exceptions like the pre 92 no vtec SOHC's but not many.

Take the 2000 Integra Type R for example, 195hp@7600-8000rpm, and 135ft/lbs or torque@7000rpm. Now think about that, If the car isn't maxing full torque untill that high in the power band, why tune it for racing. Compared to a 2.0l non-turbo 135hp@7000rpm and 125ft/lbs of torque@3500rpm. That is why compared to civics and Integras the non-turbo 2.0l dsms make a good match. Dead stock, I can hang with a Type R of the line, because of the line Torque maters not HP!!! And when you are producing the same torque as the Type R 3500rpm sooner, you are going to pull on it of the line, but it will mostlikely pass you down the line.

I have a friend with a 90 CRX with a 96 GSR motor in it, and of the line he doesn't catch up to me untill almost the end of 3rd, and by the middle of 4th (and the end of the 1/4mile), he passes me by a few cars(3 to 4), and he runs a 14.6 to 14.7.

And the other problem is when you tune a honda engine, HP doesn't go up much, but torque does, BUT THE TORQUE BAND STAYS THE SAME, maxing out at about 5500-7000rpm.

xhypno

 

[xhypno]

Originally posted by cucumber


Not a bad post buddy, but explain to me how a 170 HP N/T All moto will fly by a stock 4G63 by 4 or 5 cars. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense.

Here is how, The gearing in the NT tranny is alot closer then the turbo, with a boost in HP and Torque, the car pulls to about 41 in 1st gear (37 on the turbo tranny)(5spd of course). And on a turbo, the car doesn't make all its torque unitll the turbo is fully spooled and producing about 7-9psi of boost at around 4500rpm.

So if your nt is making 170hp and about 155-160ft/lbs of torque@ 3500rpm, you have a torque curve that starts 1000+rpm before the turbo, which means that you will get off the line that much faster (doesn't apply to the AWD, the gearing is about the same). So when the turbo starts pulling at full boost, the tunned NT will already be ahead of it(unless the turbo isn't stock and has a faster spooling turbo).

And look at Mavisky, his turbo engine, with the NT tranny, runs a very low 14 with not that much work done to it, while alot of 1g turbos, with a lot of work only run a 14.2 to 14.3.that is 2-3 tenths faster, because of the tranny.

xhypno

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by ninja0331
The turbo DSM's take some time to reach max boost, regardless of how good you drive it, and you can't launch a Turbo at 4K RPMs without wheelspin, not even if it's an all-wheel drive. Besides, turbo cars are heavy, and are made from the factory for high-rpm power.

The cams on teh turbo, the computer and the nature of the turbo make the car strong above 4K rpms.

I've raced a boosted Eclipse with my friend's 1.8 Non-VTEC 92 Integra with a 50-shot nitrous spraying all the way from first gear and by the end of second gear the Eclipse was behind about 3 cars, it wasn't until 4th that it passed me.

Low-end torque and good traction in a lighter car will put up a good show anytime taking off the line. I don't know if it makes sense, but the guys I race in the street don't run slicks and most turbo cars out there spin out like crazy.

You're reasoning is ridiculous. Turbo cars are not heavier. Mine is because it's convertible. GSX's are because they have extra drivetrain parts. Yet, how would wheelspin affect a GSX? My turbo kicks in about 3K, and yes I can launch it there, though I'm on a stock turbo right now. I think you need to understand that a 200 HP car is a 200 HP car. Not much difference will be made, granted the N/T might have a tad low end torque, the turbo car will easily catch up in second gear, maybe in of first.

Originally posted by xhypno


Here is how, The gearing in the NT tranny is alot closer then the turbo, with a boost in HP and Torque, the car pulls to about 41 in 1st gear (37 on the turbo tranny)(5spd of course). And on a turbo, the car doesn't make all its torque unitll the turbo is fully spooled and producing about 7-9psi of boost at around 4500rpm.

So if your nt is making 170hp and about 155-160ft/lbs of torque@ 3500rpm, you have a torque curve that starts 1000+rpm before the turbo, which means that you will get off the line that much faster (doesn't apply to the AWD, the gearing is about the same). So when the turbo starts pulling at full boost, the tunned NT will already be ahead of it(unless the turbo isn't stock and has a faster spooling turbo).

The NT tranny is a piece of #@%#@%#@%#@%. I had an automatic one, which RockyV has, and it Sucked donkey balls. It took forever to shift and forever to reach the powerband. There's no way a 170 HP All motor DSM will beat a 210 HP stock turbo DSM. If you want to experiment, build your car up, and I'll prove it to you, while I'm still relatively stock.

 

[sacestar836]

cheese, anyone?
bologna

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by sacestar836
cheese, anyone?
bologna

Seriously, don't post if you don't have any useful comments.

Don't be a post whore.

 

[ninja0331]

I have a 2.0 Non-Turbo and I did the transmission swap. Sorry to dissapoint you but I do take off a couple cars off the line on civics and with my friend's bottle I took about 3 cars on a stock turbo eclipse. Ohh, and don't ever race a nitrous Non-turbo on 2nd gear, 2nd is much lower than the turbo transmission and you will get spanked really bad, come down and try it anytime, got plenty of nitrous little cars that will make you eat your turbo.

 

[xhypno]

Ok, wow, you think that you are right!!!! I have seen many cars with the NT 5spd tranny, that have a turbo engine. The most recent one that I saw, was at Hot Import Nights here in Florida at Moroso last year. It was in the drag comp. The cars were both stock, except for one having an nt tranny. The one with the nt tranny won by 4 tenths of a second. This is because of the closer gear in the tranny.

Now a 1g NT car with lets say 178hp to the groundd and 173ft/lbs of torque, with the NT tranny and an upgraded clutch. And a stock 2g turbo 210hp and 213ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel. Now remember that the rotational force of the flywheel looses power at the wheels, the average is 15-25hp and 20-30ft/lbs of torque. So that would make the 2g turbo some where between 185-195hp and 183-193ft/lbs of torque to the ground.

178hp to 185-195hp = 7-17hp difference
173ft/lbs to 183-193ft/lbs = 10-20ft/lbs difference

now with that in mind, which car would win

Gears 1gNT 2g T Difference
1st 3.363 3.090 0.273
2nd 1.947 1.833 0.114
3rd 1.285 1.217 0.068
4th 0.939 0.888 0.051
5th 0.756 0.741 0.015

Pri 1.096 1.206
Sec 3.941 3.437
Final 4.322 4.153 0.169

Now compare the two. The higher gearing in the NT tranny, gives it am edge over the T's. Now what does this all mean... Well it means the NT can stay in each gear longer, and have a higher possible speed.



I have personaly seen an AWD spin all four tires, and I know most of you have.

Yeah your turbo spools at 3k, but it is not at max boost, and if it is, it is the only eclipse that I have seen that is. Everyone with a 2g that I know, they don't hit max boost untill 5500+rpm, and that is on a T-25 with 2 3/4 or 3 inch exhuast, race cat, and Intake.

And the 178hp NT that I am talking about is my project car, and I have taken 2g T's off the line, because that gearing means one thing the car has a better hole shot. And I don't car what some people think, A stock 2g T AWD, with an awsome hole shot, can take cars that are rated 70 -100hp more then it. I have seen stock gsx's take GN's and Camaro's, just because the car is quicker off the line, and the driver had an awsome hole shot.

Yeah the 2g T will pull towards the end of each gear, the 1g NT will still have that little bit of a head start, and that is all that is needed in the 1320. And there is no way for you to prove other wise, look at top fuel drag racing. The driver with the fast car doesn't always win, in fact the fast car rarely takes 1st, because of the more experienced drivers that have a better hole shot.

So stop the Flaming, especially if you ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xhypno

 

[cucumber]

Originally posted by xhypno
Ok, wow, you think that you are right!!!! I have seen many cars with the NT 5spd tranny, that have a turbo engine. The most recent one that I saw, was at Hot Import Nights here in Florida at Moroso last year. It was in the drag comp. The cars were both stock, except for one having an nt tranny. The one with the nt tranny won by 4 tenths of a second. This is because of the closer gear in the tranny.

Now a 1g NT car with lets say 178hp to the groundd and 173ft/lbs of torque, with the NT tranny and an upgraded clutch. And a stock 2g turbo 210hp and 213ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel. Now remember that the rotational force of the flywheel looses power at the wheels, the average is 15-25hp and 20-30ft/lbs of torque. So that would make the 2g turbo some where between 185-195hp and 183-193ft/lbs of torque to the ground.

178hp to 185-195hp = 7-17hp difference
173ft/lbs to 183-193ft/lbs = 10-20ft/lbs difference

now with that in mind, which car would win

Gears 1gNT 2g T Difference
1st 3.363 3.090 0.273
2nd 1.947 1.833 0.114
3rd 1.285 1.217 0.068
4th 0.939 0.888 0.051
5th 0.756 0.741 0.015

Pri 1.096 1.206
Sec 3.941 3.437
Final 4.322 4.153 0.169

Now compare the two. The higher gearing in the NT tranny, gives it am edge over the T's. Now what does this all mean... Well it means the NT can stay in each gear longer, and have a higher possible speed.



I have personaly seen an AWD spin all four tires, and I know most of you have.

Yeah your turbo spools at 3k, but it is not at max boost, and if it is, it is the only eclipse that I have seen that is. Everyone with a 2g that I know, they don't hit max boost untill 5500+rpm, and that is on a T-25 with 2 3/4 or 3 inch exhuast, race cat, and Intake.

And the 178hp NT that I am talking about is my project car, and I have taken 2g T's off the line, because that gearing means one thing the car has a better hole shot. And I don't car what some people think, A stock 2g T AWD, with an awsome hole shot, can take cars that are rated 70 -100hp more then it. I have seen stock gsx's take GN's and Camaro's, just because the car is quicker off the line, and the driver had an awsome hole shot.

Yeah the 2g T will pull towards the end of each gear, the 1g NT will still have that little bit of a head start, and that is all that is needed in the 1320. And there is no way for you to prove other wise, look at top fuel drag racing. The driver with the fast car doesn't always win, in fact the fast car rarely takes 1st, because of the more experienced drivers that have a better hole shot.

So stop the Flaming, especially if you ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xhypno

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Congratulations, you can type a bunch of worthless info. Don't BS, what car is going to but a NT tranny in his car. I'm sure you see ALOT of those. I know I owned a N/T Automatic on the bottle for two years. I knew the ins and outs of that car.

 

[98cLipsE]

my car puts down 182.6 whp and 167.4 lbs./ft. of torque since my recent change of set up and it is all motor by the way...200 whp is possible, i'm not even close to finished and i'm only about 18 hp away...as for beating gst/x's, i usually can give stock ones a good run, but if at all modded, they can definitely prove to be quite the challenge...i hold my own though...