Ok, this thread is for you NT owners that don't want to go turbo, or just like your NT too much to part with it (like me).
The 4G63 NT motor is very similar to the turbo motor, which means the tunning options are limit less, if you have tohe money.
Options to make your car faster:
1.> Turbo swap (very expensive)
2.> Turbo Kit (less expensive, but hard to tune correctly with out help from a good mechanic)
3.> All motor (anything from pure engine, to nos)
This thread is dedicated to all those who want to make an all motor car that can keep up with some of the turbos or even go faster(if you have the money).
When going all motor there are 5 options to making alot more power. These can be done by them selves or all together (for best result).
Basic Performance hint: The easy and best way to make more power, is to get more fuel and air into the engine. (Turbo forces more air into engine, and fuel is added also, give the extreme power increase over nt).
Step 1: Get more air in and make more power!
Open up your intake! K&N works great, also get soild smooth piping.
Port your intake manifold and Throttlebody.
Port your heads, and get oversized valves.
New intake cam with more lift (guarrented to make more hp)
Step 2: Add more fuel!
Larger Fuel injectors up to 400cc's (unless you add a fuel comptuer to manage the mix, and stop the over rich problem).
New Fuel rail, and FPR.
Larger Fuel pump (upgrade to a turbo pump or better, 140lph or more)
Step 3: Clear the Chamber Faster!
High flow exhuast, Header, Flow through cat.
Port the heads on the exhuast side, and get oversized valves.
New exhuast Cam with more lift.
Step 4: Larger Volume in Compression chamber!
An often overlooked option is, is a stroker kit. The easy way to do this is, to take the crank, rods, and pistons from a galant 4G63 2.4l motor. When done right it will increase your volume to 2.3l to just under 2.4l.
Step 5: Higher compression!
The higher the compression the more hp the engine will produce.
It is best to go with forged internals.
Make sure to increase air and fuel intake, The higher the compression, with out more fuel can lead to detenation.
Remember to do it right, metal head gasket, new oil and water pump. Better clutch, new valve springs and retainers (a given, if you have head work done), and stronger axles to name a few.
Let's get this thread going with any other NT ideas that stay All motor and one day one of us will have a car worthy of the first NT DSM Times listing, untill that day, keep Tunning.
Xhypno
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Opening up the intake, is one of the cheapest upgrades you can do. It can range in price from 50 dollars to 300 dollars.
The most basic intake upgrade, is a high flow air filter. I suggest K&N, for quality and performance. And another way to open the intake up, is to change the stock ruber according piping with soild, smooth metal piping. Just these 2 things alone, can give you between 5 and 15hp.
But for a All Motor Fast Car, more has to be done to get large amounts of air into the engine.
To save money, all of these things can be done at once.
Port and Polish of heads, Intake Manifold, Throttle Body.I also suggest a 3 or 5 angle valve job. If you have the money and want to get the most performance, go with 1mm oversized valves (stainless steel), Titanium double valve springs and retainers. But most importantly, Change your cams to ones with more lift. I suggest going to 5spd turbo cams (at least Intake, the 5spd turbo exhuast cam is the same as the nt 5spd one), or if you are using a fuel computer something even more extreme, like the HKS 264's, but I wouldn't suggest the 272 race grind, they can cause alot of idle problems in the nt. While your at it, now is a good time for adjustable cam gears, and lightweight underdrive pullies.
All together, these upgrades should give you between 30 and 70 hp.
On my 94 ES Special edition (not original motor, oil pump went while turboed and destroyed the engine), I have a K&N w/ opened aircan, stock piping, Port and Polished heads, 5 angle valve job, 1mm oversized valves, titanium double springs andretainers, HKS 264 cams, aem adjustable cam gears, and unorthodox SS underdrive Pulley kit w under drive crank pully.
Stock dyno pass = 117.5hp 112.3 ft/lbs of torque
Moded dyno pass= 176.2hp 164.7 ft/lbs of torque
That is a gain of 58.7hp and 52.4 ft/lbs of torque.
The total cost of these mods was (w/labor) = $1855
Adding more fuel allows the engine to run more effeciently. When ever you add more air to the engine, you must add more fuel to prevent a dangerous lean condition. But on top of protecting the engine, at the same time it will help to increase power.
When adding more fuel, most people jump to add large fuel injectors, but end up loosing power from the engine. More fuel is good, but too much is bad.
Have you ever seen an import that blows smoke, that smells like alot of gas? Well if you have, you can now laugh, because you know that their car is running weaker then it could be.
The proper air to fuel ratio must be maintained in order to make the most power possible. This is about 14:1 or 14 parts air to 1 part fuel. The best way to know if your car is running lean, or rich is to tap into the O2 sensor on the car. The plug can be found in the kick panel of the passenger side of the car. With a digital OHM meter, have a friend watch it as you drive. At idle it should go up and down in value alot. On on decelaration it should be low, and at WOT it should be between .85 and .87.
It depends, I suggest at upgrading to at least 400cc injectors. They have alot more flow then stock, but can still be controled by the ECU to stop the engine from goind too rich. But for heavily modded cars, I suggest the use of 450cc or bigger injectors and a Fuel Computer, such as the Apexi S-AFC. The AFC will reduce the amount of fuel, or increase the amount of fuel going into the engine. This will stop the engine from going lean or rich (unless your injectors can't handle your mods). I suggest this for all high power car turbo and NT alike.
What about the Fuel Pump?
The stock NT fuel pump can handle up to about 320cc injectors with out loosing fuel pressure. But if the higher the flow of the Injectors, the more fuel that you need to get to them. The best way to do this is to upgrade the fuel pump. For fuel injectors up to 500cc, I suggest getting the fuel pump from a turbo (140lph). But for extreme project go with a 255lph pump which can feed injectors up to 720cc or more.
But with the higher fuel flow comes another problem..
The stock fuel pressure regulator (FPR) will still try and hold the fuel pressure at 47psi (the nt stock pressure). To get around this, all that is needed is an upgraded FPR. They are made by many companies (such as AEM).
But with the increased fuel flow into the fuel rail, by the FPR, comes a need to get the fuel into the injectors with a little more efficency. An upgrade fuel rail will be the only thing that could provide this. But it should not be needed until you FP reachs 55+psi at WOT. The turbo fuel rails flow the same as the NT, so the only option is a custom billet fuel rail.
With these mods your engine should be well feed up to 300+hp (doubtful it will ever get there).
But they should also give you 5 to 10 percent more hp and a better runing engine.
i have a question. what size throttle body is on the 1g laser n/t. and i if i i want to bore it out how big should i go.?. oh and what about under drive pulleys?
i want to bore out my throttle body and i was wondering what size it is stock and how much should i bore it out if i do???. what about under drive pulleys. are they worth gettin???
underdrive pullies will give you 8-10hp depending on your mods, maybe even more. (at least as stated by unorthodox).
The stock Throttle body is 60mm. I have heard of it being bored out to 65mm, but I wouldn't suggest it. For every little bit your intake tract is bigger (larger diameter), it causes a loss in vacum and makes the engine work harder. I have had alot of success with mine bored to 62mm. A few friends of mine had negative results when they went 63mm plus on a NT with out a lot of mods to back it up.
I often thought it would be neat to build a NA dsm to compete with the NA hondas. They are getting well over 200hp out ofthe honda motors. I see no reason why a 4g63 in NA trim couldnt do the same or better. If it were me I would.....
#1 Junk the 1st gen cylinder head. The intake ports are just way too large for good power production in an NA application. A 2G head or possibly 4g61 head would be the way to go. (I believe the 4g61 head has smaller ports than the 4g63 but I cant swear by it)
#1.5 On an NA motor the head is the single most important piece. Every effort must be taken to perform a GOOD port job and valve work. Investment here is not an option.
#2 Lots of compression. I would have custom pistons made up with attention paid to optimised quench area. Also weight should be kept to a minimum. I would aim for at least 11.5:1 if I were serious I would go to 12.5:1+. Also choosing the right ring package is important.
#3 On the subject of weight.... a 7bolt would probably be the way to go due to the decreased rod and crank mass. Knifeedging crank would be a good idea too. Aluminum rods would be a good idea as well.
#4 Properly designed sheetmetal intake manny. When NA its critical ALL parts need to be choosen to work together in a particular RPM range
#5 LOTS of cam. I dont think the HKS 264 or even 272 is enough at this point. If an off the shelf cam is desired i would go with the Web 453/228 grind. Otherwise I would have a set custom ground. Yes idle should end up being a nice comfortable 1500+ rpm.
#6 obviously a well designed header and fuel system are a necessity.
If built right I would guesstimate 250ish HP is possible. That would put a hurting on the honda boys.... provided you could get the car weight in their ballpark.
I have been thinking about building an NA car just for fun so this is something I have been toying with for a while. Anyone got deep enough pockets and want someone to build a HOT NA motor give me a ring.
The sad part is building a very serious NA motor is not cheap. It could actually be cheaper to throw a cheap turbo kit on a motor and be done with it.
Yeah I agree, now all we need is a parts guide for the 1g na car that can help people with the all motor build up and were off. I have gone the turbo route, and the problems associated with it are just to much for me, in the matter of 2 months I had an oil pump fail and kill the motor, then I had the water pump go and blow the head gasket. So I decided on a nt build up. The only thing I don't agree on is the heads. Yes, smaller intake ports increase vaccum, but they also flow a lot less air. The way that they get around this on civics, is the V-Tec heads, at low RPM 2 valves are closed and 2 open to give the engine better bottom end torque (too bad they don't hit max torque untill 5k+ RPM), then the 2nd 2 valves open to give the enigne more air flow and more top end. No I am not saying that this is a good Idea, but I was thinking in the area of smaller intake ports on the intake manifold, or porting and polishing them with a swirl, to give the air more velocity. The faster the air gets into the engine, the more air that gets in, producing more power.
Ram Air works to this effect. Not only do the cold air systems recive denser air, they also force more air into the engine, by way of the pressure of air hitting the front of the car.
I am working on the next part of this post, it will be up soon.
hi, i have a 93 eclipse GS 2.0. i wanted to upgrade my fuel system. so far, i have an injen short ram intake, pacesetter header, test pipe, pacesetter catback, moroso 8mm wires, NGK resistor type plugs, 3 angle valve job, mildly milled head. i have alot of injectors from other turbo DSMs and was wondering which ones i can use without going too rich. i will also be getting the fuel pump from a turbo DSM later this week. stock injectors were 240cc. im thinking putting in a set of 390cc's from an AT turbo DSM and seeing how it goes from there. do u think this will make it run too rich with the few mods i have??
what do you think would be good duration and lift for a n.a cam. the jun cams are also a little bigger than the hks 272 but there really expensive. i also think that if oyu had nice huge cams you oculd run a 75mm tb on a n/a application. if you can open the intake up with a maf translator and run 3 inch intak epiping instead if the injen 2.5 it will help greatly. youll be able to tune it in and push a lot more air.
the injen intake is roughly 2.345 on the biggest part(i think thhats what 60mm converts to.) the biggest part is barely bigger then our 60mm tb and matches the outside diameter of the tb. its roughly 2.5 inches. then oposite end if the intake is about 2.25 inches. very small intake. i had a 3 inch custom intake on my 1g 63 n/t and i could feel it had much more power then the injen.
also if you were to run a lightened flywheel it would help with revs as well as gain more power. you can also run a 4-2-1 design on your headers and should show a bit more power then the 4-1 design. i had pacesetter header i ported out to match my head smoothly and i gained good hp and good tq from it. pulled very nice.
my next motor will run the following
jun cams
stage 3 head with dual springs and 1mm valves
adj cam gears
magnus intake manifold
extrememotorsports header
pacesetter exhaust with muffler replaced with apexi n1 uni muffler. also 2.5 inch
2.5 test pipe
coil on plug setup
resistor pack and 450cc injectors
ross 10:0:1 compression
eagle rods
walbro 190lph fuel pump
rewired fuel pump
safc
maf translator
possibly 75mm tb and custom 3 inch intake.
i did head flow numbers and the stock head on a turbo car flows roughly 1150cfm through the head at .400 lift. the jun cams are right on .400 lift the 75mm tb flows 915cfm on a n/a mustang. if our head flows 1150 in stock form a stage 3 should flow roughly 1300 to 1350 cfm about. should have no problem filling that tb. i understand the fact that flow nmber came off a turbo head but we have the exact same cylinder head. just our exhaust cam is different. intake is the same.
more to come. i still have a little more to figure otu tuning wise then im talking to this car when its here.
this brings up a good point about the 1G vs. 2G head on an n/a car.
If the intake runner has a larger volume, it will effectively raise the powerband. With bigger intake runners, you will get insane topend power with a lack of lowend power. Smaller volume intake runners do not compromise this, and still allow you to run enough air for the engine. The charachteristics of the powerband is detremental to the flow and size of your intake runners.
a 2.0 N/A motor with high compresssion will never flow more than 400 cfm, so putting ona turbo head that flows 1150cfm is overkill.
Has anyone ever flow tested a 2G head?
how much cfm the motor flows is not dependent on the head as much as the cams. the cams make it work. however much you can lift those valves controls the amoutn of air your motor is going to suck in. that and the size of the valves and the material there made of makes a little difference also. bogger valves more air. also do you have flow ratings on the n.a head and how much that car flows.
i would liek to see some stock flow numbers from a bone stock 4g63 n/a motor before i keep going with this plan u have. i cant find any anywhere.
aldn lowering the size of the ports will not help you any. you need that air in and if the ports are larger on the 1g head then the 2g whats makes you think less air and more gas will work.
leave the 1g head but get a mild mild p&p. i have tlaked to peopel with 1mm valves and a stage 3 head with 3 angle valve job who said they got great gains form it. didnt touch there compression or anything. had dual springs and was right at the 200hp mark.
also since the cams are the same how much air does the 14b actually push into the 1g head in stock form. how much boost is stock gst rated at.
I'm going to beg to differ on the port size thing...
It's always been my understanding that the intake runner size has a huge affect on the power charachteristics of the engine.
Example: Whenever I would need to build a race SBC that would turn high revs, I would find the head with the largest intake runner, which was usually about 215CC. The heads like these would always yield the same affect on the motors: more hp than tq, and the powerband didn't rise till higher in the revs.
If you take a look at like dumptruck motors or low-rev high tq, motors, they all have small intake runners.
It's the same affect when you're dealing with exhaust headers. The long tube, small primary headers will yield more lowend power, while the large primary, shorty headers make the most gain in horsepower at the upper limit of the powerband.
Smaller ports will yield more torque earlier in the powerband, no matter of how well it flows. It's all about port velocity. If you get a 2G head and smooth the runnerse out to get the most flow out of it, you will be capable of producing alot of topend power in addition to lowend power.
When running a small n/a motor, I'd be more concerned with having more torque down low than having hore horsepower up top.
With a n/a motor with large intake runners like the 1G head, your port velocity is going to be Crappy in the lower rpm range, while a smaller port would give you more velocity at lower rpm.
Also, you can get a cam ground to fit your powerband needs, and the performance of the motor is essential to the camshaft. I'd say that when building an N/A motor, that the camshaft selection and how you set the head up for the cam is the most important thing.
Last edited by pinknuggit; 09-12-2004 at 01:36 PM.
well i had this in mind for my head setup for my n/a motor im gonan be building this winter. im gonna get a stage one port job, but have themn install 1mm oversized valves and do a 3 angle valve job. this way the valves and all are bigger but the port size on the intalke side is very close to stock. then i was going to put in dual valve spring setup and crower severe race cams, with n/a youll need heavy lift cams to get good power.
there is a way you can get torque nu,bers back with a n/a motor. say you build the motor for horsepower and need a few tq numbers back you can always do a 2.3 stroker bottom end or run a 2.4 block and 2.0 head for more tq numbers. it will give back a good amount of torque but have a much higher stroker then the 2.0.
im building my motor for straight up horsepower and whatever tq i get ill eb happy with. then im gonna go from there. there are so many debaits abotu how to build a n/a motor but all the most succesful 4 banger n/a motors rely on horsepower over tq. tq is good but can be over come with nitrous and other things.
what are your opinions on that head setup. i definately agree with you on the intake runner size as going insane port will do nothing for a n/a motor as we will never bring in that m,uch air. if we can fill the stock ports to the capacity of the turbo motors were lucky. lemme know some thoughts on that setup.
I definately agree with you on what you just said.
I think if you keep the runner size close to stock, the OS valves will help you alot. I've seen a honda d16 gain 7 whp with a stock rebuilt head with a 5 angle valve job!! It sounds good that you're concentrating on valve size, face angle, lift, and cams rather than port charachteristics. A 1G head with o/s valves will yield a HUGE topend. I would focus on balacning assembly to the 1/10th of a gram so that you can safely turn your motor over to about 9k. Fit some moderate lift cams with Long duration, and you will have a n/a beast. Oh yeah, bump the compression up to about 12:1 and throw in some race gas.
i was thinking abotu keppign the port to a stage one ,runnign 1mm swirl polished valves and runnign mad springs from ffwd. im gonan get a 3 angle valve jo also.as for huge cams im gonna run the crower stage 3 severe race cams. here a spec sheet on the cams themselves so you get an idea of what im gettin as far as lift and all.
and yes the whole bottom end would be balanced to hell and i would try to shift at abotu 8k. but the compression the highest i would go is 11:0:1 because i still have to drive it daily
ok ive been plannign my motor out. now ive been over every possible thing abotu this motor. this is the setup id liek to run form pan to valve cover. this shoudl put down some ponies without a turbo
stock stroke 4g63
10:0:1 compresison ross pistons
eagle rods
total seal gapless rings for nitrous
arp head studs
arp rod bolts
cleavitte bearings
stage one cylinder head w/1mm over sized valves and 3 angle valve job
forrester intake manifold
bbk 75mm tb
custom 3 inch intake
3 inch lt1 mas
mas translator
crower severe race cams
aeromotive afpr
b&m fuel guage
stock fuel pump
stock fuel rail
butchered crank (forgot this)
fidanza flywheel
440cc high resistance injectors from rc eng
fidanza cam gears
balance shafts removed
coil on plug ignition
hks ignition amplifier
aem ems
i went over everythign and with that setup i shoudl be able to run 450cc injectors. if this is the case, i did the mathmatic equation for the fuel injectors and at the stock 38psig of the fuel, if i run max duty cycle and .50 bsfc i will run 251base horse power.
251 base horsepower form a n/a 4g63. then drop nitrous on top (150 shot). i think i got somethign goin here
That should be an interesting buildup. I'm looking forward to see how it goes. I think my next purchase is going to be an HKS 272 intake cam. With my translator I should be able to deal with any idle issues. I'm picking up one of the Buschur high flow cats as well.
i was gonna run a test pipe but i think i may runa cat. itll give me the exhaust flow i need with backpressure and all. if i run the exhaust to open itll kill my performance rather then hurt it.
i just gotta get this car and get this motor project goin. i think im gonan start the motor build up in november if december. so i have some money saved up for the bottom end and all first. then ill do the head setup
yea for now im gonna do all the cheap bolt on stuff to it and go from there. i still got a lot left when i get it goin till i get to the point where i can go ahead and build it up.
im gettin headers
i got clutch
intake
injectors
fuel rail
guages
like im gonan make it look nice as well before i get ti goin. do some sprint springs and kyb's then paint the rims, tint it and go from there. hopefully by next summer or the shootout next year ill have it goin. possibly il take a weekend off to go to the shootout. well see when that time comes
dude i got a spare 6-botl block if you need it. its bare all it needs is a tankign and whatever bore you need. could deck it too but thats all it needs. if you need it pm me. i have pallets for it
First of all i wanna thank all those who have posted here you have helped me in understanding alot. I am new to the DSM scene. After reading all thats posted here i have decided to buy a motor and start a build with all the info from here. I will keep you all posted on what I buy and how far I am every once in a while. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. see ya all soon.
get a set of auto trans turbo injectors and gst or gsx injectors. auto is 390cc and turbo gst is 450cc. the 450cc im gonna see if i can get enough air through the head to support em. remember we dotn have psi, we have to pull it in.
dont get a huge head and make everythign tunable. im takling off my egr, and all polution, the a/c is comin out, and im doing all the pulleys. everythign will be lite weight in this motor. if you do aluminum rods, butchered crank, ross pistons your internals will be insanely lite, back that up weith a fidanza and youll turn revs insaneley fast.
good tuning will be the key. just remember were not hondas. even with all the hp talk we will see torque numbers close to our power levels.
also change your n/t tranny. they suck, get a gst tranns, flywheel, and clutch and you wont break the trans. im doing this in my next n/t. i blew my last trans almost in half
and the recipe gets even sweeter. individual throttle body setup for the n/a 4g63. all size air horns avalible for your application and the company is awesoem at response. $2030.oo usd
so i got more food for thought.i picked up this import racer mag today and it has this crx in it with a k20a swap with a itb setup. i was readin through it to see what these guys did for power and with stock internals there makin 252whp. no nitrous no bs just motor. only 162ft lbs tq though.
so i did some research on the k20a motor. first off these dudes have to be runnign race gas because its a jdm integra type r motor with 11:5:1 stock compression ratio. it has 86.0 mm bore and strokeand is a 2.0L motor.
now i took those numbers and compared them to my fuel setup and everythign for the 4g63. the 4g63 we have a 85mm bore but a 88mm stroke. right off the bat we have more stroke but lack a little bore size. this can be handles by a good machien shop.
so now if these guys are running that for compression, and that size bottom end which isnt anythign bigger then us stock really, whats to say a 4g63 couldnt run this for power. there pushin 252whp. with less stroke then us.
so my new plans include this when i build this motor. im goin with a 12:0:1 compression (yes i will run race gas) with a .20 overbore on the block, grode rods and a itb setup. crower stage 3 cams and my head design. im guessin we will push a little more power from the 4g63 with this setup. of course this motor will take me a logn time to build as its not gonan be cheap. the itb setup is $2030 alone. then 1k fo rthe head an dyou get my drift.
let me knwo what you guys think. feedback will help alot
yea i swapped around thoughts for a while. im nto gonna go with groden aluminum rods because one there way expensive and you have to run special bearings and such. a set of eagles will be fine. id rather take that money and sink it into a butchered crank.
the compression im gonna run 12:0:1 to see how much i can make. my gold is as much power as i can make with this engine. i dotn care if i have to run race gas or whatever. by the time im dont with the motor ill turn around and sell the motor for my next one.
the daily driver i will keep with stock compresison and bolt ons, this motor will go ina seprate car. just a chassis.
EDIT:: just heard back from je pistons abotu custom pistons. they said no problem in making them for that motor. compression will be 12:0:1 compression with a .62 head gasket and a .20 overbore. $650 a set with wrist pins and je rings. add $90 for gapless rings. so a set with rings and pins for $650 isnt bad. i love it when a plan comes together
