Using Copper Pipe for Intercooler Piping??

[91boost]

Those numbers look extremely low. (Low, but the percentage of temp decrease from stock to FMIC looks correct.) Try actually inserting a temp probe into the intake stream to get the temps, and I think you will find they are much higher.

The infared is nice, but I dont think it can pick up intake stream temps or be accurate in reading general engine bay temps. (ie, if you aim it at the engine it will pick up the temp of the engine, not the air around it.)

At least we agree on the fact that if your intake charge temps are higher than your engine bay temps, do not wrap your IC pipes.

It is nice to have an actual educated conversation, instead of the usual "hearsay" BS.

 

[funniegus]

Anybody ever thought of welding som heat sinks on their intake pipes? The way I see it it will dissipate more heat keep the pipe cooler. The hot air going through the pipe will cool better.

 

[GVR4592]

Heat sinks on the outside of the pipe would have little or no effect on air temperature. The air passes through the pipe so quickly it wouldn't have time to dissapate through the heat sinks.

 

[Defiant]

But they'd work swell to draw heat into the tubing.

 

[GVR4592]

Yeah I was thinking about that too. It seems like they would heat soak because of the added mass. There would need to be cool air running across them and even then there wouldn't be little or no effect on the air temps.

 

[funniegus]

I thoght that they would help transfer heat a little. They use copper heatsinks for cpu's.

 

[DSM90AWD]

I thoght that they would help transfer heat a little. They use copper heatsinks for cpu's.

Yes, but a CPU will be hotter than the surrounding air 100% of the time. In the case of the IC piping, if the air temp outside the pipe > air temp inside, you're adding heat to the intake charge.

Dual-walled IC piping with ice water/CO2 piped thru would be cool

 

[SethA]

Yes, but a CPU will be hotter than the surrounding air 100% of the time. In the case of the IC piping, if the air temp outside the pipe > air temp inside, you're adding heat to the intake charge.

Dual-walled IC piping with ice water/CO2 piped thru would be cool

I had thought about something similar to this. Basically it would be some sort of intercooler core in the approximate shape of an intercooler pipe. Maybe 4 or 5 inches in diameter and 2 or 3 feet long. This would go between the turbo and throttle body. Instead of ice water or CO2 it would be hooked into the stock ac system. I guess an air to freon intercooler shaped like an intercooler pipe.

Super short route piping, really cold inlet temperatures and sort of stealthy.

Seth

 

[91boost]

Instead of ice water or CO2 it would be hooked into the stock ac system.

Ford has a similiar piece, but it cools the IC itself(which would be alot more effective than cooling the intake pipe). Coletti patented the SuperCooler over a year ago.

 

[crankbender]

You are on the right track young grasshopper but may not be there yet. You are forgetting to take several factors into consideration. For instance you are neglecting radiation. You are also forgetting that while staging your under hood temps are significantly higher and can soak the pipe. Whereas if you have a proper CAI and thermal wrap the pipe will cool to close to ambient which is much much less than the under hood temps.

Also I must say that while sitting in staging your underhood temps are probably over 200. It is this temperature that is really important. Once you begin your run the heat transfer on the outside of the pipe is very very minimal in the time frame we are talking about.

Think outside the box guys...before you can consider how to upgrade.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Oops I goofed on my calculation of IC outlet temps in Post#50

I did not take into consideration the Adiabatic process of which gasses heat when compressed. Jeff Lucious does an excellent job explaining this and putting together a nice calculator for such ananlysis.

Using the same assumptions the IC outlet temps and Jeff's calculator we get:
150F for the T-25 + Stock SMIC @14psi
124F for the 50-trim + Small FMIC @20psi

I believe underhood temps are warmer than either of these, but have no actual temp readings (yet) to substantiate

 

[bastarddsm]

I had thought about something similar to this. Basically it would be some sort of intercooler core in the approximate shape of an intercooler pipe. Maybe 4 or 5 inches in diameter and 2 or 3 feet long. This would go between the turbo and throttle body. Instead of ice water or CO2 it would be hooked into the stock ac system. I guess an air to freon intercooler shaped like an intercooler pipe.

Super short route piping, really cold inlet temperatures and sort of stealthy.

Seth

in a quick thought this looks wonderful, but you will reach a point of diminishing returns, and maybee lost horsepower becuase there isn't enough heat in the air to vaporise the fuel corectly and that means lost power. our engines bone stock would benifit from race gas (A few hp gain in the upper rpm band) from running on race gas over pump gas due to the reduced heat of vaporisation of race gas, which results in faster more efective vaporisation. which can become a problem in a high rpm engine when run with shitty gas, despite the fact that race gas contains a lower btu content and actualy makes less power. in other words if pumpgas had the same heat of vaporisation the effect would be even more pronounced... now to relate this to the topic supercooling the intake charge would be the equivlent of increasing the heat of vaporisation which results in less power.

 

[SethA]

Good info guys, thanks.

If the intercooler was well insulated from the underhood temps and was shiny to reflect as much radiation as possible maybe the heat soak could be minimized.

Some sort of feed back system that could help maintain optimal intercooler outlet temperature by cycling the compressor or even an electronic bypass valve to bleed off freon pressure more quickly would help fuel vaporization. The system would need a low thermal mass so that the amount of heat transfered in the intercooler is mostly a factor of whether or not the compressor is running. In other words, the intercooler would need to heat up and cool off as quickly as possible so the system could respond quickly to the feedback.

This sounds pretty complicated and not really feasible let alone affordable, but I guess talking about "pipe" dreams never hurt anything!

Seth

 

[91boost]

Of course you could just eliminate all of this, and use water injection.

 

[SethA]

Of course you could just eliminate all of this, and use water injection.

Touche.... You guys ruin all my fun.

Seth

 

[91boost]

Touche.... You guys ruin all my fun.

Hey there are a bunch of different ways to skin a cat.....everyone has their favorite method.

 

[crankbender]

Water injection has positives AND negatives.......

If you are having a problem atomizing your fuel you need to look at the injectors and fuel system not the intake temps. I know it is possible to vaporize the fuel at temps in the 40's even with high rpms and forced induction.

BTW liquid nitrogen to air intercoolers produce ice chunks that get sucked into the engine........not so good.

 

[funniegus]

How about this one. Has anybody ever thought of hooking up a peltier to an intercooler to keep it cooler?

 

[thegreatms]

How about this one. Has anybody ever thought of hooking up a peltier to an intercooler to keep it cooler?

yes, i have. You would need so many to make a difference that the power draw would be immense. You would have to add alternators just to power it. Also you would need some way of cooling the hot side of the peltier (also known as a TEC). So add some big heavy metal heat sinks to your IC.

The biggest TEC I can find is the Thermal Enterprises Model CP1-12730 270-350 watts max heat flux. at 70% efficiency that is a draw of about 440 watts; at 14 volts that about 32 amps! I wouldn't want to run many of those!

So how much would one of these monster TEC's cool you intake charge if all the 310 watts when directly into the air.

Some assumptions:
310 watts
300 cfm
14.7 psi gauge
100 C temp
Heat capacity of air at 100C 1.009 Kj/(kg*K)

Density of the air is 1.89 kg/m^3 (@temp and pressure)
300 cfm = 8.5 m^3/min

16.065 kg/min = .268 kg/sec

1009 * delT * .268= 310 watts
delT= 1.14 C or about 2 degrees F

To me 2 degrees is not worth a load of 32 amps on my alt.

 

[Defiant]

Because that pesky gasoline wants an oxidizer.

 

[91boost]

Water injection has positives AND negatives........

And the negatives are? I've been using an aquamist system on my mr2 for almost 2 years now, and I can't think of any negative effects it has had.

 

[funniegus]

Holy frijoles! thegreatms broke that mofo down with his equations.

 

[SethA]

And the negatives are? I've been using an aquamist system on my mr2 for almost 2 years now, and I can't think of any negative effects it has had.

The one I can think of is water is taking up space that could be occupied by air and fuel. The good stuff it does more than makes up for that though. Having to refill the water tank is a little inconvenient but again, it does such good stuff it is worth it. Lastly, if you tune to edge and rely on the water as part of that scheme; stuff goes boom if the water system fails for some reason. This is true for a lot of other components too though.

Seth

 

[elementalwindx]

yay chlorine gas is fun to shoot out of exhaust!

guys if you're going to make ic piping go and get the premade mandrel bends and silicone couplers...its not that expensive really.

I made mine for $300. and thats all the 2.5" steel pipes, couplers, paint, and even a 11" spal fan.

 

[funniegus]

I think hakcenter is onto something. Anyways the cool side of the peltier tends to develop moisture. If it cooled it enough would it develop moisture inside the intercooler and have some characteristics of a water injection system. Meaning that the moisture would help cool the air.