Twin disc engagement issues

[lil corb]

Have had the quartermaster twin disc installed for about 500 hundred miles and now all of a sudden I can't get into any gear from a stop. It makes this loud grinding noise. I have adjusted my clutch master rod according to Proper Clutch Adjustment - YouTube and it still hasn't solve my problem.

I have had a slight grinding noise since day one when clutch is disengaged which I thought was the disc being noisy but now it won't engage from a stop. I have to force it to go in after that the clutch is loud going into 2nd but every other gear it goes in fine. Clutch was babied for about 400 miles for break in. Clutch was bled properly and never had any issues until now all of a sudden.


I do have a lot of play in the clutch pedal before it actually engages. And also it's only from a dead stop that it won't engage, if I'm rolling it'll go in gear easier.

Shimmed clutch fork, new pivot ball and new slave cylinder.

Any ideas? I don't want to mess up my new shep 3 trans because of this issue!

Update: *video added*

 

[PieEyedPiper]

A twin is well out of my realm but, I'm curious, are you still using an OEM slave?

If so, I thought it was interesting that you have a lot of room before the clutch engages. Normally the latter is preferred. What happens if you reduce the clutch throw so that you have less room before it engages and more room before it starts to disengage?

It's the whole rolling in gear bit, and all other gears work (presumably better because you're moving) that's making me wonder if you can still over-throw a twin disc like you can a single.

 

[lil corb]

A twin is well out of my realm but, I'm curious, are you still using an OEM slave?

If so, I thought it was interesting that you have a lot of room before the clutch engages. Normally the latter is preferred. What happens if you reduce the clutch throw so that you have less room before it engages and more room before it starts to disengage?

It's the whole rolling in gear bit, and all other gears work (presumably better because you're moving) that's making me wonder if you can still over-throw a twin disc like you can a single.

It's a brand new oem 1G slave. I do have that feeling that it has been over extending the PP fingers. I'm worried if it's beyond a fix now and if it the PP is permanently damaged? (I hope not).

How should I adjust my pedal on a twin?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

How should I adjust my pedal on a twin?

Heh, that's the thing. I can't tell ya. There are various members here though who have experience with such things. Tim Zimmer comes to mind.
If you haven't played with it too much yet I'd really just go ahead and adjust the pedal to give you less throw and see what happens. Or wait for a guru.

Personally, I have the patience of a child.

 

[lil corb]

Thanks!
Hopefully a twin disc user can chime in.

Update:

Got off the phone with shep trans, they think my pedal assembly is so worn that it doesn't give enough pressure to disengage the clutch and the loud *SCREECH* noise is the input shaft trying to engage I hope I didn't do any serious damage by forcing it in gear to limp it home

pedal assembly will be removed tmw and sent out to them.

Any ideas on how damage it could be? It was maybe 10 miles limping it home with maybe 4 times having to force it into gear.

Will keep updating for any others with the same issues

 

[PieEyedPiper]

That makes sense the most sense, actually. Very common on 1gs, I didn't even think about that.

Hopefully you get it all worked out soon!

 

[lil corb]

Thanks. Me too!

 

[twicks69]

You NEVER shim the pivot ball on a QM. You either need to use a clearanced clutch fork or a Competition Clutch Forged Steel clutch fork. Check your pedal assembly, clutch hydraulics and hour clutch adjustment. Something is going on where you are either not disengaging the clutch enough or you are over-disengaging the clutch and will cause clutch damage. Either way, both issues will damage your transmission, ESPECIALLY if you are forcing it into gear. Also check your shifter cables and shift lever assembly, and make sure your transmission is attached to your block. If the fasteners start loosening up or the rear M8 bolt or dowels are not installed you will have expensive problems.

 

[toppertopper]

adjust the master rod

 

[lil corb]

You NEVER shim the pivot ball on a QM. You either need to use a clearanced clutch fork or a Competition Clutch Forged Steel clutch fork. Check your pedal assembly, clutch hydraulics and hour clutch adjustment. Something is going on where you are either not disengaging the clutch enough or you are over-disengaging the clutch and will cause clutch damage. Either way, both issues will damage your transmission, ESPECIALLY if you are forcing it into gear. Also check your shifter cables and shift lever assembly, and make sure your transmission is attached to your block. If the fasteners start loosening up or the rear M8 bolt or dowels are not installed you will have expensive problems.

Thanks Tim for the info. I have the feeling its an engangement issue due to my clutch pedal. I'm going to send it out and get a new one with welded bushings. I will double check that stubborn m8 bolt tmw. Once I receive the new clutch pedal assembly what's the best way to adjust my pedal travel for best engagement?

Do you think it has cause permanent damage? The not going into gear just started today and I have 500 miles on set up.

 

[twicks69]

It probably didn't help, but never ever force a transmission into gear; it will either damage the hub and slider(s), the gear(s), the synchro, the springs/keys, or the shift fork(s).

Get the pedal assembly fixed, then back out the master cylinder rod away from the firewall (towards the driver seat), bleed the clutch hydraulics again, then start adjusting the clutch pedal with the car off until you have full disengagement around 1-2" from floor. You do not want to adjust the clutch to disengage at the top of the throw as you will then over extend the clutch assembly and damage the clutch disks and clutch cover/spring diaphragm on the QM twin.

 

[lil corb]

Thanks Tim. I'll get it sorted out once I get new assembly and hopefully nothing is damaged.

Thanks again everyone

 

[kilo4]

Do you have a gear drive QM? If so, hopefully the disc hub cleared the input shaft sleeve (where the TOB slides forward and back) That would definitely cause a loud SCREETCH sound during idle and clutch disengage/engagement. It would also cause engagement and disengagement issues.

Since you shimmed the pivot ball. Did your forks make contact on the clutch cover?

 

[lil corb]

Do you have a gear drive QM? If so, hopefully the disc hub cleared the input shaft sleeve (where the TOB slides forward and back) That would definitely cause a loud SCREETCH sound during idle and clutch disengage/engagement. It would also cause engagement and disengagement issues.

Since you shimmed the pivot ball. Did your forks make contact on the clutch cover?

http://sheptrans.com/products/dsm-awd/quartermaster-twin-disc-7-25-v-drive-clutch-flywheel/

That's the kit I got including the install kit when I bought my tranny.

Update: Removed the pedal assembly wow what a pain to do! Double checked all the bolts and dowels between engine and tranny and everything looks good so far. Sending out assembly monday!

 

[lil corb]

Update...not looking good:

Installed the new clutch pedal assembly, bled it correctly, and adjusted pedal height and still can't get into gear.
Clutch sounds like a really high pitch metal screeching sound when disengaging. No matter how much I adjust the pedal still makes that noise. I'm thinking the pressure plate fingers are broken and this is what is causing the issues.

If I press the clutch pedal in slowly I can hear the normal twin disc noise (the chatter noise) half way down but as I go further the loud screeching noise happens. While the clutch engaged at idle I can sometimes hear a loud clanging noise and sometimes a whirling noise.

Shall I go ahead and start pulling tranny out and inspect or am I not adjusting properly?

Any ideas? Tim?

Thanks

 

[twicks69]

If it is super loud when disengaging, you likely are over disengaging the clutch.

 

[lil corb]

If it is super loud when disengaging, you likely are over disengaging the clutch.

How would I go about fixing the engagement point? The rod is all the way towards the firewall and it still making the loud screeching noise.

Thanks

 

[huafist]

Update...not looking good:

Installed the new clutch pedal assembly, bled it correctly, and adjusted pedal height and still can't get into gear.
Clutch sounds like a really high pitch metal screeching sound when disengaging. No matter how much I adjust the pedal still makes that noise. I'm thinking the pressure plate fingers are broken and this is what is causing the issues.

If I press the clutch pedal in slowly I can hear the normal twin disc noise (the chatter noise) half way down but as I go further the loud screeching noise happens. While the clutch engaged at idle I can sometimes hear a loud clanging noise and sometimes a whirling noise.

Shall I go ahead and start pulling tranny out and inspect or am I not adjusting properly?

Any ideas? Tim?

Thanks

I don't have a QM, but when I had that noise, the culprit was a destroyed TOB. If you shimmed it and had too much preload on it, you could've destroyed it. Does the clutch fork have any up & down play?

 

[twicks69]

How would I go about fixing the engagement point? The rod is all the way towards the firewall and it still making the loud screeching noise.

Thanks

Adjust the rod away from the firewall. You adjusted it too far and simply need to back off the adjustment rod on the pedal assembly.

 

[lil corb]

Adjust the rod away from the firewall. You adjusted it too far and simply need to back off the adjustment rod on the pedal assembly.

Tim, Here is a video of exactly the issues I am having. I adjusted the pedal exactly as you said and I did fix the over engagement problem but it still would not go into gear. I could not find the proper engagement point (it was either over or under engaged) In this video I managed to get into gear but then the screeching and grinding happened.. Here is the video... Any help is appreciated.


Thanks

Quartermaster twin disc problem - YouTube

 

[twicks69]

Pull the transmission you likely have the disks installed wrong or didn't clearance the clutch fork enough, or your clutch pedal adjustment is still wrong (since the pedal is not coming fully back to the top position to engage the clutch pedal switch) or something else. You are using a clearanced clutch fork and do not have the pivot ball shimmed? You have the proper disk orientation in the clutch pack?

 

[lil corb]

Pull the transmission you likely have the disks installed wrong or didn't clearance the clutch fork enough, or your clutch pedal adjustment is still wrong (since the pedal is not coming fully back to the top position to engage the clutch pedal switch) or something else. You are using a clearanced clutch fork and do not have the pivot ball shimmed? You have the proper disk orientation in the clutch pack?

When I purchased my tranny and quartermaster from shep, my original had a crack in the bell housing so I needed a whole new tranny. They provided this kit http://sheptrans.com/products/dsm-awd/quartermaster-twin-disc-7-25-v-drive-clutch-flywheel/ (Option- Installation kit $235 ( T/O Fork,T/O Bearing and clip Pivot ball,Spacer Shim,Flywheel Bolts,OEM Ring gear,)

I am certain I installed the disk right because I recall the disk saying front/back on each of them, I used the flywheel spacer with bolts and clutch alignment tool. Torqued everything down properly.

Now I do think I didn't bleed the clutch properly because the clutch pedal wasn't all the way up when I bled it. The reason the pedal isn't fully up now is because that's the highest I could go without over extending the fingers on pressure plate. (based on numerous trial and error)

Is it possible that air could still cause it to engage in gear as in it did in the video and then start grinding like that?

Mind you I had no issues prior to this for 600 miles. It just started locking me out of gears and I thought it was a bad clutch pedal assembly as it had lots of play.

I'm thinking to raise the clutch pedal all the way back up, re bleed the clutch again, then re do the engagement point.

In the video, does it look like my slave cylinder is pushing my for fork far enough for disengagement?

If it turns out I do need to replace the clutch, I think I'll stick with a single disk this time. I was trying to plan for the future by getting the twin but it's too much clutch right now as I like to drive on the street.

Is it possible I could have input shaft damage?

Thanks again for you help

 

[PieEyedPiper]

If you're not certain that your hydraulics are properly bled, definitely do a bleeding session before you pull the tranny.

 

[-=TWITCH=-]

Did you ever resolve this problem?

 

[lil corb]

Ended up being a mis adjusted clutch pedal which over engaged the disk and stripped one of the disc and damaged my input shaft. Tim was able to fix my input shaft and recommend me the south bend clutch (which had some issues at first with their pressure plate which they fixed)