Timing Question

[justinh722]

I just had a tensioner go bad on me so I just got another one tonight. I'm installing it and I remember I'm supposed to tighten the tensioner pulley until the grenade pin is loose enough to slide in and out with ease am I correct? I know the correct way to do it is put 24 in lbs of torque on it but I don't have a small torque wrench. Also, the crank trigger plate appears to be loose and the belt sits on the crank sprocket closer to the inside. It seems like the crank pulley is loose. Is there a way to tighten the pulley to spec without the holding tool? I snapped some pics to see the timing marks and the crank pulley.

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[bradyc]

Your correct on the tensioner. once you install the belt and get the tensioner pulley adjusted rotate it 6 times or until all the marks line up, wait 15 to 20 minutes and if you can slide the pin in and out easily its correct if not, re-tension it. As for putting the crank pulley on i just used a impact wrench and went by feel, its worked so far!! If you dont mind me asking, what were the symptoms of the tensioner going bad? did the belt break?

 

[luv2rallye]

It seems like the crank pulley is loose. Is there a way to tighten the pulley to spec without the holding tool?

Assuming you have a M/T you could remove the lower bell housing cover (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=91010&d=1231856196) and wedge a big screwdriver between a couple flywheel teeth and something to hold it (might need a person to hold screwdriver if it won't stay by itself).

 

[justinh722]

Your correct on the tensioner. once you install the belt and get the tensioner pulley adjusted rotate it 6 times or until all the marks line up, wait 15 to 20 minutes and if you can slide the pin in and out easily its correct if not, re-tension it. As for putting the crank pulley on i just used a impact wrench and went by feel, its worked so far!! If you dont mind me asking, what were the symptoms of the tensioner going bad? did the belt break?

So basically if the tension isn't correct after 6 revolutions then I have to pull the tensioner out and compress it again and start over? The tensioner bracket was knocking very loudly against the tensioner body because the tenioner had bottomed out. It sounded like very loud lifter tick but was more pronounced around the belt area. I also noticed the belt was walking out on the cam gears a bit. When I pulled the tensioner off, I was able to push down on the pin a little and hear what sounded like an air pocket.

@luv2rallye, I'll give that a shot as I only own an 18v dewalt battery operated impact and it just won't do the job. Hopefully I can torque it down. Is the crank trigger plate supposed to be tight?

 

[bastarddsm]

Looks like your missing the big washer that goes on the lower pulley and the bolt. And your timing sprocket it junk too. You need to be really really carefull with this area. Couple points to watch out for:

1. If you over tighten the bolt you will distort the washer, and break the little rib off of the timing sprocket. This rib is important because it centers the dampner.

2. If you don't tighten the bolt tight enough, the timing spocket will eventually work back and forth enough to "wallow out" the keyway in the crank and sprocket. Eventually the sprocket will slip and your cams will get out of time. This is bad because it will make the crank junk, along with the head.

I learned both of these the hard way. You've been warned.

EDIT. You can make a crank holder with a drill, a 5/16's bit, and a 2' piece of 1/4" flat. All you gotta do is drill two holes and bolt it down to the sprocket.

 

[bradyc]

Looks like your missing the big washer that goes on the lower pulley and the bolt. And your timing sprocket it junk too. You need to be really really carefull with this area. Couple points to watch out for:

1. If you over tighten the bolt you will distort the washer, and break the little rib off of the timing sprocket. This rib is important because it centers the dampner.

2. If you don't tighten the bolt tight enough, the timing spocket will eventually work back and forth enough to "wallow out" the keyway in the crank and sprocket. Eventually the sprocket will slip and your cams will get out of time. This is bad because it will make the crank junk, along with the head.

I learned both of these the hard way. You've been warned.

EDIT. You can make a crank holder with a drill, a 5/16's bit, and a 2' piece of 1/4" flat. All you gotta do is drill two holes and bolt it down to the sprocket.

do you know the torque spec of the pulley bolt?

 

[justinh722]

Do you have a picture of the big washer that your talking about? With the bolt, I just assumed the crank bolt held on the crank sprocket and the dampener. I'm pretty sure there's a washer in there. I got the car this way from the previous owner. I'm using an underdrive pulley so the dampener isn't really an issue. What makes my sprocket junk?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=123091&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1305843224


I found a picture. The previous owner must not have put the washer back on. I didn't even realize it was missing and I drove the damn car for like 10 miles this way. I'm glad I posted pics and you caught it. If by chance I lost the one to my 7 bolt motor, where can I find a new one without ordering online?

I went out and found the bolt and washer on my 7 bolt motor and I see the ring your talking about for the dampener. Can I use the 7 bolt crank sprocket on my 6 bolt motor?

 

[bastarddsm]

I'm not sure on the 6/7bolt compatibility. Don't use a ## pulley. It will break ## crank off.

 

[justinh722]

Apparently dsmtuners filtered your words. I'm assuming you mean don't use an underdrive pulley as it will break my crank? I don't have a good harmonic balancer so I'm stuck with this underdrive pulley.

 

[snowborder714]

Yes, all crank sprockets are the same.

I would pull off everything on the crank and make sure everything is in good condition, and make sure all the woodruff key looks good, as well as all the notches for it in each piece. If anything (including the key itself) looks in bad shape, replace it.

It looks like you are not running a balance shaft belt. Do you still have the sprocket, or was it replaced with a spacer?

You're not stuck with the pulley you have. I would not suggest running the car until you can purchase an OEM (or aftermarket) harmonic dampener.

 

[romeen]

Yes, all crank sprockets are the same.

I would pull off everything on the crank and make sure everything is in good condition, and make sure all the woodruff key looks good, as well as all the notches for it in each piece. If anything (including the key itself) looks in bad shape, replace it.

It looks like you are not running a balance shaft belt. Do you still have the sprocket, or was it replaced with a spacer?

You're not stuck with the pulley you have. I would not suggest running the car until you can purchase an OEM (or aftermarket) harmonic dampener.

In the last pic you can just barely see it right above the trigger plate.

OP, I agree that it's probably a good idea to at least thoroughly examine the crank sprocket, crank snout, etc. It almost looks like you don't even have the Woodruff key (first pic) but not sure. Components definitely look beat up and appear to have been on there for quite some.

 

[justinh722]

A lot of people run underdrive pulleys. Is there a reason I shouldn't? I know it makes the belts turn slower at idle but It's not like I run a stereo system or anything. Hopefully I can get the crank sprocket off today. My 7 bolt sprocket looks to be in excellent condition. I'll let everyone know what I find out. The balance shaft belt is still there. The motor only has 108,000 on it from the donor car. The previous owner just didn't have experience and couldn't get it to start.

 

[snowborder714]

The stock harmonic dampener does exactly as the name says - it dampens the vibrations. A regular pulley cannot do this.

Underdrive pulleys are ok for accessories such as the alternator, power steering, etc., but should never be used in place of a harmonic dampener on a turbo engine. The 420a can use an underdrive crank pulley just fine as there's is a regular pulley from the factory.

 

[justinh722]

Yea but a balance shaft also dampens the vibrations and a lot of people seem to get rid of that. I'm still running the balance shaft and I haven't had any vibrations from the UDP on my 7 bolt or on this motor that I could tell. A lot of people don't recommend buying them but what if I already have it? I haven't really seen any proof of damage that can in fact be relayed to a UDP. How can people really say a UDP wears out the bearings quicker?

 

[snowborder714]

You don't have to believe anything we tell you or that you read on here. If you think the underdrive pulley will not cause any issues, then feel free to run it. There are always some cases that don't fit the norm. Just know that if Mitsu didn't think the stock pulley needed dampening, I don't think they would have taken the time or effort to create such a pulley when a simple, solid pulley would do.

And I'll just leave these here for you.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/1513989-post386.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/268533-broken-crankshaft.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/300353-resolved-what-crank-pulley.html


If you already have it and don't want to replace it, then don't. Simple solution. If you already have it and want to replace it, but an OEM unit or a Fluidampr. Another simple solution.

 

[justinh722]

I went out to remove the pulley and realized I'm gonna need a puller. Just curious, is there supposed to be 2 washers? The big one that holds the sprocket on with the bolt and one inside the sprocket against the crank? I'll probably end up getting a harmonic balancer for peace of mind.

 

[snowborder714]

Just the one large washer.

 

[Calan]

Yea but a balance shaft also dampens the vibrations and a lot of people seem to get rid of that. I'm still running the balance shaft and I haven't had any vibrations from the UDP on my 7 bolt or on this motor that I could tell. A lot of people don't recommend buying them but what if I already have it? I haven't really seen any proof of damage that can in fact be relayed to a UDP. How can people really say a UDP wears out the bearings quicker?

Balance shafts remove lateral vibration through the use of counter-acting weights. This is mostly for driver comfort and longevity of the motor mounts.

The harmonic balancer (damper) is there to reduce torsional stresses in the crankshaft and prevent "jump-roping". It is substantially more critical to the life of your engine than the balance shafts, which have little to no impact on internal engine stresses.

Do NOT buy a replacement from O-Reilly's or similar parts stores. (Ask me and several others how I know ). Stick with original OEM Mitsu, or pony up for a Fluidampr as Brian mentioned.

I would also highly suggest upgrading that tired old crank bolt to this.

EDIT:

It's worth mentioning that "harmonic balancer" isn't the best description for the crank pulley. That term more appropriately applies to engines with an externally balanced crank and rotating assembly. "Damper" is more accurate, since it's main function (besides driving accessory belts) is to dampen the torsional stresses seen by the crank.

 

[luv2rallye]

Balance shafts do not compensate for "torsional vibration". Here is why you need a harmonic balancer: never used remanufactor crank!! - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com

 

[luv2rallye]

So basically if the tension isn't correct after 6 revolutions then I have to pull the tensioner out and compress it again and start over?

No you leave the tensioner in place. If after adjust, 6 crank revs, and wait 15 minites, the tensioner isn't correct, you readjust it. Then repeat 6 crank revs (only need wait 15 minutes the 1st time) and adjust again if needed. Repeat until it's right.

 

[justinh722]

No you leave the tensioner in place. If after 6 crank revs, adjust, and wait 15 minites the tensioner isn't correct, you readjust it. Then repeat 6 crank revs (only need wait 15 minutes the 1st time) and adjust again if needed. Repeat until it's right.

Awesome, sounds good. Its a pain in the ass to keep removing and compressing. Getting a puller here in a few so hopefully it don't give me too much of a problem. There's barely any room. Removing the water pump pulleys I have to pry the engine just to get them off.

 

[Calan]

Removing the water pump pulleys I have to pry the engine just to get them off.

Put a floor jack under the engine with a block of wood across the oil pan, and remove the driver-side and front motor mounts. You can then raise and lower the engine as needed to make life much easier when working with anything on the front of the motor.

 

[snowborder714]

If only driver's side mounts that have Prothane inserts (along with solid/Prothane other mounts) were easy to remove/install.

 

[luv2rallye]

Awesome, sounds good. Its a pain in the ass to keep removing and compressing.

Ya you replied before I made a correction in my post #20. You adjust and then do 6 crank revs, not the other way around. The 6 crank revs is always done after the adjustment.

Also make sure you notice the way the water pump pulleys go on so you don't put them on backwards: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...n-out-water-pump-pulley-go.html#post151166499

 

[Calan]

If only driver's side mounts that have Prothane inserts (along with solid/Prothane other mounts) were easy to remove/install.

Don't know what you mean...mine are cake.

Of course, they are 1G's that I machined to fit and work better.

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