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timing belt slipped!!

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
My timing belt lost some teeth and the car virtually died at idle. I know I goosed it not 5 minutes before and she never hesitated until it died a couple of minutes later.
I heard some weird noise from the cam belt area and by the time I got to the end of the road it died. I towed a mile home and put it in the garage. I did a bunch of trouble shooting and I just found the culprit.

So my question is how much damage can I really expect. I can't start to pull it apart for a few days, so I was wondering what's the BEST case scenario. How bad do you have to be on it to do some real damage?? could I be as lucky as only a timing belt replacement or is it instant bent valves and such:cry::cry:
 

cardot33

Proven Member
182
0
Apr 2, 2009
Amboy, Illinois
crap, i might've been able to save you a lot of trouble. maybe. I skipped 3 teeth on my talon and all I had to do was put a new belt on it. compression is perfect and everything. I tried to start it over A LOT while the belt was jumped too because I didn't know what had happened.

as for BS removal, I don't run the belt driven BS and plan on cutting off the other weight but I've heard many good things about removing both balance shafts. I'm only running the one on the oil pump and I have no issues.
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
crap, i might've been able to save you a lot of trouble. maybe. I skipped 3 teeth on my talon and all I had to do was put a new belt on it. compression is perfect and everything. I tried to start it over A LOT while the belt was jumped too because I didn't know what had happened.

as for BS removal, I don't run the belt driven BS and plan on cutting off the other weight but I've heard many good things about removing both balance shafts. I'm only running the one on the oil pump and I have no issues.

I appreciate the insight, but I think in the long run, IF, I decide to go and do the rebuild, I want to replace all the bottom end and front timing gaskets anyway.

Looking at the pictures, do you think the pistons escaped any serious damage?? This thing broke on me at idle. I had just done a hard 1-2 pull and drove 3/4 mile then into a parking lot from an easy 3-4, drove around the parking lot in 1st and came to a stop and that's when I heard the funny noise (belt chaffing I guess) and then she died. SO, this thing didn't skip at high RPMs or boost. So I'm wondering how good the rods might be?
 

BrokenTsi

Proven Member
1,831
31
May 3, 2003
Rome, New_York
From the pics, I see bent exhaust valves.

Pistons are fine. Deburr them a bit, and make them look nice without any sharp edges. Rods wont be affected.

If it were MY car, this is what I would do:

Rebuild or replace the head. Stripped out exhaust studs are not a huge deal. They can be tapped easily.
Rebuild should include a replacement of all the valves, or at least the bent ones. Upgrade the lifters, and change intake/tb gaskets.

Installe ARP studs and a new OEM (composite) head gasket.

BSE? Why not? You're already almost half way there. While the pan is off, I would throw in a set of rod bearings in as well. Its easy.

BSE is a royal pain with the engine in the car. Ive done it 6 times or so between my car or my friends, and i will never be motivated to do it again, but its gotta get done. This will take care of all new gaskets for the lower end (front cover, filter housing, oil pan, etc......

Its ALOT of work. But in the end, you'll have an overhaul that will last a very long time. :thumb:

I wouldnt worry about upgrading cams now, but if its in your budget, go for it! Replace the camshaft seals, and you're all set.
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Hey thanks "brokenTSi", I appreciate the info. I'm going to wait until after Christmas to get stuck into this thing. I'm out on business anyway, so it'll give me time to think about what I want to do.

Merry Christmas to you all.
 

BogusSVO

Proven Member
5,891
308
Jul 1, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
sorry about your luck with the Tbelt.....

here is what your fixing to have done to your head.....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341218-how-change-valve-guides-4g63t-head.html

you may also think of doing this oil mod while the head is off....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html


Just so you know what a rough cost would be to get your head done....

Valve Job $160.00
Cbn Mill $40.00
R&R Guides $24.00
Guides parts $24.00

stock replacement valves about $10.00 each

Personally, if money allows, I would opt for the Engbldr Stainless steel valves, about $160 shipped, and the +1mm OS are the same price. I have installed about 10 sets with the BC springs and have ad no issues from any of them.

I would bet the valve spring would test out of spec.... a set of BC 1100 run about $100.00 and will work with the fatory spring retainers.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341209-4g63t-valve-spring-info.html

Best of luck getting your car back up n running!!
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Ouch. Sorry to hear about the belt man. A new valve set will be in order. New valves, springs and retainers. Pull the head and see how bad the pistons are. Hopefully they aren't too bad.

Thanks:)

I posted a link to photobucket earlier in the post, you can see the pistons and the head. From looking at the head I only have a couple of obvious valves that are not sitting back in the seat, but the piston tops tell a different story. You can see all 4 got hit. I'm still really unsure how bad is bad. I've had guys tell me I can deburr them and go for it. On the other hand I have it stripped down this far pulling the rest and doing a fresh bearing rebuild, might be in order.

Also thanks for the links "bogusSFO". :thumb:
 

BogusSVO

Proven Member
5,891
308
Jul 1, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
No problem... Just tryin to help... I have seen it several times....and fixed the head every time.
 

TomTom93536

Probationary Member
31
0
May 2, 2009
Manchester, Connecticut
Save yourself the time and buy a used JDM Longblock. The same thing happened to me I wouldnt doubt that you have a hole in your piston. I bought the longblock and its amazing. Most likely this is a much cheaper alternative.

Even if you rebuild the top and bottom end your motor is more likely to break all over again. You dont wanna reuse any parts in that motor after having something like jumped timming happen
 

GooeyGus

Proven Member
459
0
Sep 23, 2009
Marysville, Washington
Save yourself the time and buy a used JDM Longblock. The same thing happened to me I wouldnt doubt that you have a hole in your piston. I bought the longblock and its amazing. Most likely this is a much cheaper alternative.

He already posted pictures of the pistons... just a couple knicks. No big deal.

Even if you rebuild the top and bottom end your motor is more likely to break all over again.

Please explain this one...
 

TomTom93536

Probationary Member
31
0
May 2, 2009
Manchester, Connecticut
It depends what he wants to do with the car. Now would be the perfect time for building his internals for performance or if he wants to just bring it back to stock i would say just get a used motor. I bought mine right after this had happened and it had blown a hole right through the number one piston and destroyed all the bearings and journals. Having the motor just stop abruptly due to hitting the valves might have done damage to the bottom end. I didnt see the pictures so i was just noting my experiences with my Talon. All Im saying is that the cost of having all this done will most likely be more expensive than just buying a used motor and getting your car back on the road.
 

BogusSVO

Proven Member
5,891
308
Jul 1, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
TomTom.... he did not break a valve and pop it thu the pistion, he just bent the valve off the seat... so he can deburr the valve relifes and be good,, If he is really worried or just anal enough, he could drop the oil pan and pop the pistons on and spin the rings to make sure he did not "pnch " a ring land. and pop in a new set of rings and rod bearings and call it a day.

from what the pics show, he should be in go shape to have the head fixed and slam a HG and roll on....
 

TomTom93536

Probationary Member
31
0
May 2, 2009
Manchester, Connecticut
By all means do so. I'm just throwing another option out there. Im not a fan of having my pistons groung down.And unless your getting the head ported you might as well just get a new one.
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Based on my initial tear down, I am inclined to believe that the bottom end didn't take any damage. Like I said in my first post this thing died at idle. I can't be sure that nothing is damaged, BUT, due to the nature of where this car came from and the the past issues, I'd be a bit of a DumbA$$ if I didn't do this thing all the way from the bottom up and replace the bearings and rings, etc. The front timing cover and/or oil pump housing have been leaking for sometime, so whether or not the bottom end needs rebuilt, I think it would be wise to tear the thing down for a complete rebuild for peace of mind. I would hate to get this thing back together and 6 months later I need to tear it down again, 'cause the bottom end gave up. :ohdamn:

I appreciate all the input and advice.:thumb:
 

darkstar5456

Proven Member
209
0
Feb 23, 2010
Mitchell, South_Dakota
i am sorry to hear about your talon she looks gorgous ahhh very nice talon i will say that much but since i am pretty new to the hole dsm which i lovei pick ed up my 1991 plymouth laser rs form a dealership for a $160 but the ? i am having is i really want if not need to change my timing beacause light throttle is fine but when heavy i can hear a kinda of umm not really sure how to explian it but a twetter noise if the helps out and my idle is at 1500 somtimes 1200-1300 idk varys and i dont have the money for it and i am scared of this happing to me so i asking any and all dsmer out there if they have any adivce of how to help would be much appercaited well i also have the all to common idle surge as well as speaking from a guy that is pretty new to the car /dsm i really do not want to screw anything up i want prefaction on the first attpemt if possiby and do not have the 700 they are going to charge me up here in mitchell sd so please anyone hear a fellow dsm cry for help thanks :pray:
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Sorry, I can't exactly be of any "local" help, but, as far as your symptoms you described; I'd be cautious of the timing belt if you're not 100% sure it's had the preventative maintenance that should be a first when you buy a DSM. I paid the price for neglecting to do the timing belt, because I figureed I'd do it when I tore the engine down for a rebuild. I did all the other fluids etc and general maintenance, but gambled with the timing belt.

As for the noise you say you can hear under throttle, I'll only state my observation on my car. I heard NOTHING, until the thing died. If you can hear some sort of humming from the engine, it won't hurt to suspect the belt and have a good look at it and check for oiling or cracking and if either of these are present, I'd start getting suspicious.

Your idle issue could be a bunch of different things and without knowing all what vac' lines and emission stuff is still hooked up, it'll be hard to nail it down. You could be dealing with a bad ISC or TPS or throttle body leak. So the first and most important thing is to go to VFAQ and follow all the troubleshooting links for the basics.

VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions

If you can get some good help locally, from a DSM'r , I'd start with the basics and eliminate the leaks and check that belt. I can tell you it may cost a little more to add a new timing belt and some good maintenance parts to your budget, BUT it's a heck of alot cheaper than a rebuild which I'm going through right now.

Good luck and welcome to the DSM world. I will say one thing, do your research and use the search button on this site and you'll find 99% of the answers you need and when you can't the folks on this site are above and beyond helpful.
 

snakeyes711

Proven Member
647
0
Feb 5, 2009
W-S, North_Carolina
Mine did that earlier this year. Exact same scenario. I kept hearing a strange sound at idle, then it dies at idle. Ended up looking the same way, just down on the crank was where the strip was when I got the cover off. So different area. Although I put a new belt on, and checked the compression, and they were all over 160, on all four, I started the car, and it ran fine.

Either way its your car so you do what you thinks best.

G/L

Jake

BTW, that was when I used a Contitech belt.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/352459-stripped-timing-belt-teeth.html
 

darkstar5456

Proven Member
209
0
Feb 23, 2010
Mitchell, South_Dakota
haha yea thanks well it could be my alternator belt beacsue somtimes when i start it up good god what a squeal and the problem with localy help is that i am really the only one with the 1g dsm around i mean there a few 2g but i swear these kids that have them should be driving a honda like u name it they have a that ricer stuff on theirs big old wing body kits all they stuff u could live with out:nono: i am just the more stock look i mean i have a exhaust and rims thats it nothing else so could any one of you guys help and telling me ab my idle issuse and it will idle around 1500 and i would love it to idle at 1000 rpm i would be very happy also quick ? will a rear hatch spolier of a 1992 ealge talon fit on my laser becasue they look amazing just stock wing that all i want no ricer stuff on my front well drive LOL and if you think of any mods or tuning i can let my know i am and well be honest a noob with the dsm my old car was a 1990 audi v8 quartto so big differnece i think but yea open to any ideas that came to mind but i dont have a lot of cash baically none but i am trying everthing i can to keep my baby running and running good i cant no bear to see it go to a junk yard or worse having to sell her me and her have been though a lot during the last six months and i tell you i have loved every min so thanks to all of you dsmer that will take the time and take me under your wing and well i am only 19:thumb:
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Start with the basics. Follow the link I provided to VFAQ. Read through some of the topics and get familiar with the easy stuff.

Depending on your skills and understanding,:confused: you'll be able to at least take care of the simple stuff like plugs and wires and filters. Once you have the engine at least running on fresh oil and plugs,etc, etc. you can then either search on this site for the answers or start doing some of the trickier stuff and ask lots of questions as you go. Most people on here love to help, but only if you've made an effort to educate yourself by doing the research FIRST!. If you have tried and come up stuck on something just about every possible case of repair or modification you can do, has been talked about more than once. If you still can't make out what's what, then, don't go as deep as to imobilize your car, without first talking with a trusty mechanic. ALSO.. even though you say the other DSM'rs around are 2G guys, most likely they had or know a little about 1G's and so don't discount them on their advice or help.:sneaky: If you can befriend one or more of these guys, do so. Nothing like having someone experienced in your corner when it comes to pulling down some tricky maintenance.

Good luck and ask lots of questions and DO LOTs of searches and you'll be fine.:D
 

darkstar5456

Proven Member
209
0
Feb 23, 2010
Mitchell, South_Dakota
k will do. but you might be able to help me . with a little problem in 5 gear i can not go over a 110 mph.plus i have to shift a 6000 rpm,when it was goin to 7000 rpm.so any info would help it might be my cat beacuse.when i get on it kinda smells a litlle so.any help would thanked.
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Where to start:coy:

Without knowing all that you have going on with a N/T car and how good your injectors and filters and timing etc, etc. 110mph out a little 2.0 isn't too bad.

As for the shifting issue, that could be anything. The ECU sees all the parameters your engine is developing and it might not like you getting up to the high of the RPM range, due to it seeing damage occurring if you battle through the last 1000 RPMs. Again without mod's and not knowing your state of maintenance you'll not be able to get much back from this car until you take care of the small stuff.

My suggestion is and I'm not trying to insult you;), is get a good overhaul of the basic mechanics of the engine, like I mentioned do all your general replacement and and get clean filters and oil etc and then start with "free mod's" which you can find on the VFAQ and once you are there. Go on the Noob section of this site and start a new thread asking pertinent questions to what you want to achieve.

Not too many people are looking at this thread and going to be able to help you, as this was a thread about my timing belt. Where you are now is needing to get some guys on the correct section of the website to jump in and start throwing ideas about.:thumb:

I'm always in and around the sections of this site, so ask away, or better still get multiple helps from different angles by being on the correct section for your question.
 

darkstar5456

Proven Member
209
0
Feb 23, 2010
Mitchell, South_Dakota
yea i bought the car with 213484. it now has 217532 on it but the werid part was the first day i had got i had it well over 120.maybe i guess it is just getting worn out and.for the hole overhual trust me no offense taking love the info from you guys.but would you happen to know how much the costs would be for it.also ok let i said i have the idle surge it only did it when it was cold strated.but now it is all the time and trust me its kinda embrassing to pull up to a stop light and the rpms bouncing with everyone looking at you like your dumb. i have heard that is it either a iac, or my throttle postion sensor but here is my question.i cant afford both so if you could tell me what one is casusing it it would help.agian i no this a different thread but your info helps the most and i apolgise for the nagging i am doin but i am so annoyed at this idle surge. it is bugging the crap out of me. i also find the price of the tps and the junkyard here in micthell told me to take half of the reatial price but i cant not find a iac on the web at all. so if you could help me with prices becasue i dont want to pay the money i really dont have to fix it and it does nohting.at all thanks and agian i really dont no how to get my own theards going i posted one but i got eaten. alive by the grammar guys LOL but agian thank i will try and get my own post going on this subject but your info would help me beacasue i am stumped :banghead:
 

LKWTSI

Proven Member
601
9
Feb 7, 2008
Lake Wylie, South_Carolina
Hey we all have to start walking before we run, so I know how you feel about diving in creating your own threads and getting the appropriate feedback. That being said, the best way to get going and start getting real help is to start with a basic idea of what you want to fix. On the main page look for "Newbie Section" open it up and you'll see some where on the right side a "New Thread" button.

Click on it and follow the prompts. Give it a title, at which point it'll throw up a few closely related problems that have already been discussed. The reason is, a basic message board rule, that if it's already been covered you should reference that thread and fix your problem, rather than starting another thread covering the same topic. Don't let it stop you, if you really feel that your problem isn't being covered, it's only suggestions.

Type as accurately as you can the problem and try to be specific and don't get overly vocal and using slang. Then hit "submit". Be patient and sometimes it'll take a day or so, sometimes only minutes. All depends on the problem you're addressing.

As for your IAC or TPS, I know there are tons of threads out there as to how to check them both and diagnose them, before you go spending money on replacement parts. So without sounding dismissive, we could talk for along time on how or what idle surge is and the cause and fix, so I suggest to get familiar with the workings of the site, that you go to the search button and type in idle surge and start from there. If you don't get any success try TPS or IAC in the search function and try that. What we're basically doing by "hijacking" this thread is keeping this thread alive and not getting responses to your issue and it's something the moderators don't like to see happening.

So I'm not trying to brush you off, but get a thread started and once you do we can start helping you fix and I'll chip in where I can, but we need to get this thing off on it's own thread and you getting the help you need.:hellyeah:
 
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