The Truth on Cam Advertised Duration, Etc.

[spoolin ddub]

Here is some good info to read. This is from a Evo 8-9. Yes I know they are two different motors but I use the numbers as a reference to convert to DSM specs e.i. intake duration @ .050 lobe lift: 211.5 is universal on cam analyzer. So the breakdown speaks for itself and gives an idea of the real numbers vs advertised numbers.
4g63 Camshaft Research: The truth shall set the tires free!!

It gets really good when they get to the Evo 9 FP4R cams on the cam analyzer. Here are the advertise specs of the Evo 9 FP4R version 1 & 2. Both have more duration then the DSM FP4R (from what I have researched every evo cam has more duration then the corresponding dsm cam).
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/info/camcards/evo94rv1.pdf

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/info/camcards/evo94rv2.pdf


If you want to cross reference here are some evo cams at 1mm advertised duration. Also Jun 272 peak lift is advertised as 10.8 but shows 0.41829 =10.6mm on the cam analyzer.
Cam Specs Thread - Updated - evolutionm.net

I will say this. I have to give props to Darren at FFWD. He is the only person my machine shop and I have ever seen that posted the true specs of cams on a site. They have always been there. Most just dont understand them.
DKS 3 Camshafts - DKS Camshafts - DSM/EVO

 

[bastarddsm]

.....

 

[ceedawg]

Here is some good info to read. This is from a Evo 8-9. Yes I know they are two different motors but I use the numbers as a reference to convert to DSM specs e.i. intake duration @ .050 lobe lift: 211.5 is universal on cam analyzer. So the breakdown speaks for itself and gives an idea of the real numbers vs advertised numbers.
4g63 Camshaft Research: The truth shall set the tires free!!

It gets really good when they get to the Evo 9 FP4R cams on the cam analyzer. Here are the advertise specs of the Evo 9 FP4R version 1 & 2. Both have more duration then the DSM FP4R (from what I have researched every evo cam has more duration then the corresponding dsm cam).
http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/info/camcards/evo94rv1.pdf

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/info/camcards/evo94rv2.pdf


If you want to cross reference here are some evo cams at 1mm advertised duration. Also Jun 272 peak lift is advertised as 10.8 but shows 0.41829 =10.6mm on the cam analyzer.
Cam Specs Thread - Updated - evolutionm.net

I will say this. I have to give props to Darren at FFWD. He is the only person my machine shop and I have ever seen that posted the true specs of cams on a site. They have always been there. Most just dont understand them.
DKS 3 Camshafts - DKS Camshafts - DSM/EVO

Props to Daren. He built my present short block.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Props to Daren. He built my present short block.

no doubt. Im trying to get the real specs of kelford 280's, GSC3 and a few other cams now.

 

[keltalon]

I just love my Bc 272s they are awesome

 

[spoolin ddub]

I just love my Bc 272s they are awesome

I feel you kels. I feel the same way about my dsmtuners certified kelford 280/fp5r cloned FFWD KING KAMS !!! Darren put his ass in those cams. The Real specs are crazy!!

 

[performance]

I am currently running snyder 272's does anyone have input on these. My buddy, who built my motor, swears that they are pretty good, but I haven't heard anyone running 'em.

 

[keltalon]

I am currently running snyder 272's does anyone have input on these. My buddy, who built my motor, swears that they are pretty good, but I haven't heard anyone running 'em.

Well one way to find out, put them in the car and post the results If you are happy after putting them in then they are good if you are not happy after putting them in then you know what I mean

 

[ceedawg]

Yea Dee its a good article I read years ago on the spec accuracy of the cams. I still say it goes based on how your whole combo works big cams, accurate cams or not.

 

[keltalon]

Yea Dee its a good article I read years ago on the spec accuracy of the cams. I still say it goes based on how your whole combo works big cams, accurate cams or not.

Yeah I read that article myself a while back and was like okay what's the point really and this was not to be sarcastic either. Most cam makers use advertised specs to give a purchaser an idea of where their cams are and help them to purchase cams based on the flow numbers of the head. In my case when my head was ported I had jerry to print off a graph of the flow and match a set of bc 272s to the head and man the results was more than my expectations. Here is something else to consider is that each cam maker uses their own methods of measuring duration. One measuring device can vary from another measuring device ask me how I know, well I happen to deal with measuring devices on a daily basis that how I feed the family and I usually stick with what I am familiar with. In the end its all about results whether time at the track or numbers on the dyno if you change from one cam to another and it shows improvement in one or both of these areas then that's all that really matter right

 

[spoolin ddub]

Yeah I read that article myself a while back and was like okay what's the point really and this was not to be sarcastic either. Most cam makers use advertised specs to give a purchaser an idea of where their cams are and help them to purchase cams based on the flow numbers of the head. In my case when my head was ported I had jerry to print off a graph of the flow and match a set of bc 272s to the head and man the results was more than my expectations. Here is something else to consider is that each cam maker uses their own methods of measuring duration. One measuring device can vary from another measuring device ask me how I know, well I happen to deal with measuring devices on a daily basis that how I feed the family and I usually stick with what I am familiar with. In the end its all about results whether time at the track or numbers on the dyno if you change from one cam to another and it shows improvement in one or both of these areas then that's all that really matter right

Its a point. Without knowing how the cams are measured for each company a cam analyzer will give the real numbers of the cams. Like you having the flow numbers of your head. Which gives you a better indication of how it will perform vs a head of another company claiming to be the same. But when you have it tested the other company numbers flow 2/3 less then yours. That's because although they claim to be the same level the ports are not as aggrresive etc. That's like having two different companies 280 cams with the same adversied duration @ 1.00mm valve lift 238 but on the analyzer one company may really show 216 and the other 210 etc. Thats doesnt make on cam better then the other because they all suit a purpose. But it does give a better starting point to what someone may be looking for. Just think if you had access to put the cams you tested in a cam analyzer. Those are the initial numbers that you could use to determine which companies cams are really closely matched to each other. Now you have accurrate cam numbers to match the flow of your head. Not just numbers the cam company thru on some paper. It would make testing and comparing easier and more accurate across the board.

 

[keltalon]

.....

Bastard I have to agree with you on this one

 

[spoolin ddub]

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Here is the exact cam analyzer format Darren had for the KING KAMS on FFWD's website. One could have easily copied these cams with all the info he had on it's page. So I blocked out all the info out except the intake and exhaust valve duration @1.00mm lobe lift. Number wise compare it apples to apples to the applicable Evo cam analyzer durations @ 1.00mm in the first link I posted. Then compare it to the evo cam durations @ .050" .

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[keltalon]

Here is the exact cam analyzer format Darren had for the KING KAMS on FFWD's website. One could have easily copied these cams with all the info he had on it's page. So I blocked out all the info out except the intake and exhaust valve duration @1.00mm lobe lift. Number wise compare it apples to apples to the applicable Evo cam analyzer durations @ 1.00mm in the first link I posted. Then compare it to the evo cam durations @ .050mm .

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I think most are still scratching theirs heads and are wondering What the ???? How about some back to back dyno images track results?? Most here don't give a rat's rear about the scratching out of some spec on a sheet of paper post up or shut up

 

[spoolin ddub]

I think most are still scratching theirs heads and are wondering What the ???? How about some back to back dyno images track results?? Most here don't give a rat's rear about the scratching out of some spec on a sheet of paper post up or shut up

This info is relevant to dyno numbers. These numbers directly explains why and how a one company 272 e.i. HKS 272 vs kelford 272 would make less power or more vs another cam. regardless of the advertised duration. You seeing the numbers even before getting on the dyno would give someone a better starting point of which cam is better suited for a street car vs for a race car etc. Then you can test from there. It's just another option to help save time and money.

 

[keltalon]

This info is relevant to dyno numbers. These numbers directly explains why and how a one company 272 e.i. HKS 272 vs kelford 272 would make less power or more vs another cam. regardless of the advertised duration. You seeing the numbers even before getting on the dyno would give someone a better starting point of which cam is better suited for a street car vs for a race car etc. Then you can test from there. It's just another option to help save time and money.

Still unnecessary when most cam
companies provide a horse power range and rpm range their cams will make power in the first place and in my cam test I found most of them to be dead on as advertised! Brian crower takes it a step further by listing a dyno sheet next to the cams being sold on their website. They do this because most if they had every spec on a particular wouldn't understand what those specs mean in the first place. Seeing a dyno sheet is better for about 99% of people to make a sound decision about what cam they want to run in their setup.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Still unnecessary when most cam
companies provide a horse power range and rpm range their cams will make power in the first place and in my cam test I found most of them to be dead on as advertised! Brian crower takes it a step further by listing a dyno sheet next to the cams being sold on their website. They do this because most if they had every spec on a particular wouldn't understand what those specs mean in the first place. Seeing a dyno sheet is better for about 99% of people to make a sound decision about what cam they want to run in their setup.

you don't need to understand all the specs. Just the real duration @.050mm and @ 1.00mm and the real lift. Most can't afford or don't have the time to do the awsome dyno cam test that you did. which I commend you for doing. But a person doesn't need a dyno to tell that although a new cam may advertised more duration that if the numbers are lower in a cam analyzer its going to make less power. You said it yourself. Each company may use different tools to measure their cams. This just makes it uniform across the board and gives a more accurate starting point.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Having the specs help match a cam, having the run out and the specs helps determine the manufacturing quality.

BC is consistently the worst in both consistency and grind quality.. Dustin basically admitted as much when we exchanged some PMs and Emails earlier in the year. Went so far as to send me their own Cam Pro readouts, but requested I keep them as they are proprietary to BC.

Quinn Whipple posted some fairly damning measurements as well.

That you and a relative handful of others made good power on them is in spite of them. I know you are happy with them, and glad they work for you as that is all that matters.

But the excessive run-out, lobe center issues, general inconsistency etc are very real and a problem that still rears its ugly head to this day. Everyone wants to feel good and justified in their decisions too.

I can testify to this feeling.. being left with some anger, resentment and embarrassment about a shop I had chose to do business with the last few months, that shall remain nameless. Fortunately they were a relatively small part of the process.

It's why I can't recommend them to any of my clients, friends or acquaintances.

 

[keltalon]

you don't need to understand all the specs. Just the real duration @.050mm and @ 1.00mm and the real lift. Most can't afford or don't have the time to do the awsome dyno cam test that you did. which I commend you for doing. But a person doesn't need a dyno to tell that although a new cam may advertised more duration that if the numbers are lower in a cam analyzer its going to make less power. You said it yourself. Each company may use different tools to measure their cams. This just makes it uniform across the board and gives a more accurate starting point.

You're not reading you're just busy running that john brown! Re read post #16 the dyno has already been done by the manufacturer no need for anybody to spend money on a dyno session except to tune for additional power!

 

[keltalon]

Having the specs help match a cam, having the run out and the specs helps determine the manufacturing quality.

BC is consistently the worst in both consistency and grind quality.. Dustin basically admitted as much when we exchanged some PMs and Emails earlier in the year. Went so far as to send me their own Cam Pro readouts, but requested I keep them as they are proprietary to BC.

Quinn Whipple posted some fairly damning measurements as well.

That you and a relative handful of others made good power on them is in spite of them. I know you are happy with them, and glad they work for you as that is all that matters.

But the excessive run-out, lobe center issues, general inconsistency etc are very real and a problem that still rears its ugly head to this day. Everyone wants to feel good and justified in their decisions too.

I can testify to this feeling.. being left with some anger, resentment and embarrassment about a shop I had chose to do business with the last few months, that shall remain nameless. Fortunately they were a relatively small part of the process.

It's why I can't recommend them to any of my clients, friends or acquaintances.

Well I love them and recommend them everytime I get ask what cam should I use. I recommend settings and am thanked many of times for such happy results. it boils down to run what makes you happy. You might note bc raised the price of their cams I wonder why? Oh I know from my last conversation with them they having a problem keeping the 272s in stock

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

McDonald's is pretty popular, and they got more expensive over the years too!

If they work for you, more power to ya though! It's more than most will ever make!

Now, can't wait till we can each get a half-mile under our belts so we too can get some healthy sh*t-talking going like Spoolin and Bastard

 

[keltalon]

McDonald's is pretty popular, and they got more expensive over the years too!

If they work for you, more power to ya though! It's more than most will ever make!

Now, can't wait till we can each get a half-mile under our belts so we too can get some healthy sh*t-talking going like Spoolin and Bastard

:beer:

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

:beer:

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[spoolin ddub]

I've had this for a while and forgot about it. Here some info for those that have fp cams. A List of every of the shelf dsm/evo 8-9 cam they have ever made with their cam advertised duration.

Forced Performance Turbochargers

 

[spoolin ddub]

Was just sent this. AMS breakdown on the cam analyzer.

http://amsperformance.com/attachments/article/69/TURP-080700-CAM-056-063.pdf