The long lived "Should I run a Gates Timing Kit?" question response, and new timing belt kit options inside:

[mitsubishikid]

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I know this is old post, but That's 100% an autozone duralast water pump that wave looking emblem gives it away, and the ph-1860 is the part number, I know because I ran a few on my car never had any issues with them, I am not sure what brand autozone reboxed but I remember buying mine bnib and it looked exactly like this one.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

This just might be the thread for it, but has anyone ever 100% confirmed who supplied the original belts for Mitsubishi? I’ve seen some talks over the years that it was Gates, I’ve seen other claim Continental, I’ve seen others claim Dayco, but never a for certain “this is who made it”. I’ve used multiple Gates rubber belts over the years making power with no issue, I’ve installed Dayco belts boxed as Duralast from Autozone on high power cars no issue, I’ve used Goodyear when they were still available, and used a Continental Contitech on my own car making well over 400 for a few seasons as it was only $11 bucks from rockauto and I said “good enough for an Audi oem then good enough for some shitty ass dsm”. I just threw Gates belts on my winter beater 1g, I’ll be pulling that engine to drop into the other dsm in the spring and will be obviously replacing the belt again and deleting the balance shafts while it’s out, but I’ve seen credible sources having issues with Gates belts in the recent years (mention made in this thread) making me second guess them a bit.

If it says anything I’ve never had a single problem with Gates stuff, then I bought an upper rad hose for my ‘94 Ranger that was Gates with no hesitation, turns out the ID was molded too open and no worm clamp could close down enough to keep it from leaking. Picked up a Dayco hose that was molded to the correct ID and haven’t had a problem. That was enough to make me start to second guess Gates just a touch.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

Suppliers have different grades of parts at times, so it’s not always fair to look for the original supplier’s offering and assume it’s the best. Mitsubishi had specific requirements for the part they outsourced, because they have/had standards to meet, and they have customers willing to pay accordingly. Usually these are the top quality you’ll find. Sometimes the supplier will sell the equivalent to the public, sometimes they’ll have a cheaper piece with inferior materials or attention to detail. As I get older, I’m happier buying what is known to be good through the experience of the community, instead of trying to pull a sneaky with possibly unknown “equivalents“ and saving a couple bucks.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

Suppliers have different grades of parts at times, so it’s not always fair to look for the original supplier’s offering and assume it’s the best. Mitsubishi had specific requirements for the part they outsourced, because they have/had standards to meet, and they have customers willing to pay accordingly. Usually these are the top quality you’ll find. Sometimes the supplier will sell the equivalent to the public, sometimes they’ll have a cheaper piece with inferior materials or attention to detail. As I get older, I’m happier buying what is known to be good through the experience of the community, instead of trying to pull a sneaky with possibly unknown “equivalents“ and saving a couple bucks.

I can’t knock that mindset, and I do believe that to be true myself. One fine example of that are certain brand auto tensioners do closely resemble that of the OEM one, however I suspect the quality wasn’t held to the same standard for ‘X’ company opposed to when they provided them to Mitsubishi OR engineering changes occurred that ‘X’ company is ok with that Mitsubishi didn’t give the green light to when they were providing them 30 years ago, etc. However finding that supplier can be useful in potentially finding adequate replacement parts once the Mitsubishi labeled part is gone. I for one have never been a huge stickler for “everything OEM!!” as I’ve had hands on with using and abusing plenty of non OEM stuff with no issue as well as others in the area within our huge local 4g63 following, however there are pieces im more confident in knowing when it “can’t” be wrong. Timing belts are a gray area, however the dirt cheap stuff like “DNJ engine components” I have seen literally turn to damn near plastic over time and shear teeth right off, the balance shaft belt I removed off my ‘91 Talon is a prime example of this and not the first time I’ve seen that occur. However, I’ve never had any issue with a known name rubber belt installed and tensioned correctly with proper components and neither have many others in the area (one car in particular threw down just over 1000 on a heart breaker Mustang dyno with whatever was cheap through the parts store commercial account slammed on to an aluminum rod engine). Only reason I bring it up now is Gates has had some awfully suspect stuff going on lately again from credible sources.

Just to add and this isn’t to knock anyone’s opinion, Buschur now says to NOT use Kevlar belts including the oem Evo 9 replacement as it causes excessive fatigue on the oil pump over time and only to install a rubber timing belt. Doesn’t mean I agree with that as I have used Kevlar myself along with many others I know with no such issue over long periods of time, but just to go to show the varying opinions of different reputable shops and vendors, it still makes for a gray area all these years later.

 

[Jon Lane]

Speaking of belts. OEM isn't a guarantee of quality either. This is a OEM belt at less than a thousand miles. The parts store belt that replaced it went the usual 60k miles.

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[DSSA]

This just might be the thread for it, but has anyone ever 100% confirmed who supplied the original belts for Mitsubishi? I’ve seen some talks over the years that it was Gates, I’ve seen other claim Continental, I’ve seen others claim Dayco, but never a for certain “this is who made it”. I’ve used multiple Gates rubber belts over the years making power with no issue, I’ve installed Dayco belts boxed as Duralast from Autozone on high power cars no issue, I’ve used Goodyear when they were still available, and used a Continental Contitech on my own car making well over 400 for a few seasons as it was only $11 bucks from rockauto and I said “good enough for an Audi oem then good enough for some shitty ass dsm”. I just threw Gates belts on my winter beater 1g, I’ll be pulling that engine to drop into the other dsm in the spring and will be obviously replacing the belt again and deleting the balance shafts while it’s out, but I’ve seen credible sources having issues with Gates belts in the recent years (mention made in this thread) making me second guess them a bit.

If it says anything I’ve never had a single problem with Gates stuff, then I bought an upper rad hose for my ‘94 Ranger that was Gates with no hesitation, turns out the ID was molded too open and no worm clamp could close down enough to keep it from leaking. Picked up a Dayco hose that was molded to the correct ID and haven’t had a problem. That was enough to make me start to second guess Gates just a touch.

A lot of people have ran bargain-basement parts on their cars and have gotten away with it--I've yet to see *any* part fail 100% of the time. At the same time, stay in the game long enough and you'll find an example of a quality part having an unexplained failure--I've yet to see *any* part be 100% failure-free.

The problem is when someone proclaims, "Well I've ran part X for XX,XXX miles with "XXX" h.p. and haven't had an issue" as if their particular, very limited, data points towards a trend of a part being just as reliable as another brand.

The same problem exists when someone points out "Well, I've ran this supposedly reliable part and had an issue! It's no longer reliable!". These are brief data points that should be used as such.

When you start seeing *many* of these reports coinciding with one another over the years, then you can start turning them into an informed decision. Even at that point, as has been proven on the thread, it's all a gamble like anything else in life, and like gambling, you want the best odds.

Look at the people who work on/have worked on these cars for years/decades as well. See what they're running. I can't speak for everyone in the industry, but I know that I and most everyone I know/have known in the industry won't use parts store belts on our own cars. Sure, I've also seen people who have gotten away with using Gates belts. I can also get them cheaply. I can also get continental belts cheaply. I obviously buy them at wholesale/distributor pricing. Why am I not saving money on my own Mitsus that I've owned over the years (no idea how many at this point to be honest). Why, when profit levels are higher on aftermarket belts/kits, do I post things like this, and even say on our site that we don't really recommend them? Shouldn't I be pushing people towards them when there's more money to be made, and why did I hold off even adding them to the site back in the days when you could make 100% markup on Gates timing/pump parts and only about 20% on OEM stuff? I can give you a hint--it wasn't because I'm rich, and it's not because I hate money.

Since Gates almost doubled the cost of their timing kits in the last year or so, I didn't think there would be much more discussion on the matter (much less price difference).

Edit: Sorry, got on my soap box and forgot to touch on the OEM manufacturer of the OEM belts---the standard MD326059 belt (and reinforced 1145A038, Evo IX unit) are manufactured by Unnita Japan, which is now "Gates Unnita" as of 2002. Don't confuse them to be the same as a Gates belt just because of this. These OEM belts, pulleys and pumps are still made in Japan, whereas the Gates Power-Grip belts are currently being made in the U.S., and the pulleys and water pumps are currently made in China.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

A lot of people have ran bargain-basement parts on their cars and have gotten away with it--I've yet to see *any* part fail 100% of the time. At the same time, stay in the game long enough and you'll find an example of a quality part having an unexplained failure--I've yet to see *any* part be 100% failure-free.The problem is when someone proclaims, "Well I've ran part X for XX,XXX miles with "XXX" h.p. and haven't had an issue" as if their particular, very limited, data points towards a trend of a part being just as reliable as another brand.The same problem exists when someone points out "Well, I've ran this supposedly reliable part and had an issue! It's no longer reliable!". These are brief data points that should be used as such.When you start seeing *many* of these reports coinciding with one another over the years, then you can start turning them into an informed decision. Even at that point, as has been proven on the thread, it's all a gamble like anything else in life, and like gambling, you want the best odds.Look at the people who work on/have worked on these cars for years/decades as well. See what they're running. I can't speak for everyone in the industry, but I know that I and most everyone I know/have known in the industry won't use parts store belts on our own cars. Sure, I've also seen people who have gotten away with using Gates belts. I can also get them cheaply. I can also get continental belts cheaply. I obviously buy them at wholesale/distributor pricing. Why am I not saving money on my own Mitsus that I've owned over the years (no idea how many at this point to be honest). Why, when profit levels are higher on aftermarket belts/kits, do I post things like this, and even say on our site that we don't really recommend them? Shouldn't I be pushing people towards them when there's more money to be made, and why did I hold off even adding them to the site back in the days when you could make 100% markup on Gates timing/pump parts and only about 20% on OEM stuff? I can give you a hint--it wasn't because I'm rich, and it's not because I hate money.Since Gates almost doubled the cost of their timing kits in the last year or so, I didn't think there would be much more discussion on the matter (much less price difference).Edit: Sorry, got on my soap box and forgot to touch on the OEM manufacturer of the OEM belts---the standard MD326059 belt (and reinforced 1145A038, Evo IX unit) are manufactured by Unnita Japan, which is now "Gates Unnita" as of 2002. Don't confuse them to be the same as a Gates belt just because of this. These OEM belts, pulleys and pumps are still made in Japan, whereas the Gates Power-Grip belts are currently being made in the U.S., and the pulleys and water pumps are currently made in China.

Your last paragraph was the answer I was looking for, if not even to source parts at the least to shut down the argument whenever it gets brought up (as it usually does several times a year for the last 17 years or however long I’ve been doing this now).

I do want to clarify I also meant what I said in no offense and not doubting you by any means, more so looking ahead for the future as you probably know better than anyone in this business parts are drying up, and I’ve overcame I brick wall where I had talked myself out of a lot the past year or so because of this but finally realized I’m not going to let that stop the fun. I’ve never always went with the “best” thing for the pure fact I couldn’t have afforded the fun I’ve had with the platform over the years by doing that and absolutely hate to see fellow enthusiasts have to start treating their car like a delorean with limited parts available, I only share my experiences as I often see people get extremely discouraged thinking if they don’t use this or that it’s going to result in instant failure which most certainly isn’t true in many cases. Now more than ever with the way the world is hot rodding is more expensive than ever for the blue collar guy like me when it was born from the blue collar crowd, have to point out the options with the involved risks.

 

[DSSA]

Your last paragraph was the answer I was looking for, if not even to source parts at the least to shut down the argument whenever it gets brought up (as it usually does several times a year for the last 17 years or however long I’ve been doing this now).

I do want to clarify I also meant what I said in no offense and not doubting you by any means, more so looking ahead for the future as you probably know better than anyone in this business parts are drying up, and I’ve overcame I brick wall where I had talked myself out of a lot the past year or so because of this but finally realized I’m not going to let that stop the fun. I’ve never always went with the “best” thing for the pure fact I couldn’t have afforded the fun I’ve had with the platform over the years by doing that and absolutely hate to see fellow enthusiasts have to start treating their car like a delorean with limited parts available, I only share my experiences as I often see people get extremely discouraged thinking if they don’t use this or that it’s going to result in instant failure which most certainly isn’t true in many cases. Now more than ever with the way the world is hot rodding is more expensive than ever for the blue collar guy like me when it was born from the blue collar crowd, have to point out the options with the involved risks.

I didn't mean to come off as offended, nor did I mean for you to take the entire post as it being directed towards you---simply to address some additional comments since I've last seen the post.

I'm in the same boat to some extent as what you're saying. I cringe a little when I see someone with a well used and highly abused example of these cars showing off their titanium bolts, and HKS Kevlar Belt and the rest of the car that they haven't gotten to looking like it's one step away from a part out.

With that said, and noting that I don't have the disposable funds with everything else in life sucking me dry to be sticking $20-$30K into one of these cars anymore, I refuse to skimp on things like oil pumps, timing components, etc., and increase the risk of having a catastrophic failure and ending up costing myself more in the long run. That's one of the other reasons I've spent so much time trying to be able to buy/sell/use actual OEM parts without having to bend over to Mitsubishi's ever-increasing markups.

On a side note, you're the second person I've seen talking about Buschur claiming you shouldn't use a Kevlar belt, but I haven't been able to find what he's actually claiming. Do you happen to have a link? I can't see any basis for this (other than someone over-tightening the belt, the regular belts may stretch a little to save you if it's only a *little*), but would like to see what he's actually claiming.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

I know longer see it listed, he had it listed in his store page as a “do’s and do nots” per se when buying a new short block or engine from them. This had also been discussed here amongst locals as im about 25 minutes east of Buschur. This is a screen grab from back in May, they might have found new reasoning as to no longer feeling this way. (And this isn’t to say David is wrong either by any means, just passing it on)

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[DSSA]

I know longer see it listed, he had it listed in his store page as a “do’s and do nots” per se when buying a new short block or engine from them. This had also been discussed here amongst locals as im about 25 minutes east of Buschur. This is a screen grab from back in May, they might have found new reasoning as to no longer feeling this way. (And this isn’t to say David is wrong either by any means, just passing it on)

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Interesting, as the Evo IXs seem to have no problem using it, nor do many other places experience increased pump failures due to them.

I'm guessing it was just a thought and they took it down after realizing that it had more to do with over-tightening the belt and not with the belt itself. *shrug*

 

[Nic_Di_Censo]

We're certainly going to make an attempt at it! Unfortunately, the creation aspect of adding all of those parts/options and sourcing suppliers for the "white box" parts takes up a decent deal of time, while it also being the "rush" season. I'm also somewhat of a mental gimp when it comes to website work, so it probably takes me longer than it should.

It's on my list to do 1G, 2GA/B on there as well.

If you want something similar in the meanwhile for a 2G, shoot us an email at [email protected] and we can send you a custom quote.

any updates on this?

 

[XC92]

FWIW a couple of years ago I replaced the entire front of my '92 Talon TSi's engine with OEM parts, tensioners, pulleys, WP, seals, etc., and both belts, each Kevlar.

Ok the TB was a Mitsu but the BSB was Gates, but their Kevlar version which was as good or better than the OEM Kevlar. But everything else was OEM.

Two years later not a single issue. I even took the case off this summer to make sure that everything was still good, and the timing was spot-on, everything was tight and clean, and it looked exactly as it did after I finished.

Btw I went this route after the overwhelming advice of folks here advised me to. Don't regret it for a moment. Didn't even cost that much more than aftermarket. But the peace of mind and reliability was priceless.