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The big nitrous tuning thread

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
So before I start, I'm posting this in the Dsmtuners and the Ecmlink forums alike to get as much information from people, and to people so that there's plenty of information being shared. So feel free to check out both places for the information.

That being said, I've been in the dsm scene for a good while, but nitrous is totally new to me and although I figured it would be a quick, "install kit, make sure it works correctly, and go", that definitely hasn't been the case and there's a steep learning curve if you're new to it because there's a lot of information to go over and to be learned if you want to be safe about it. I've asked and appreciated the answers given by a few folks like Kevin Jewer, Jeff Bush, Derek Austin, and Chris Keagy. But if there's one thing I'm learning so far is that everyone seems to have a different way of doing things and setting things up for what works for them. I hate bugging them to keep asking questions so maybe it's better to just throw it up on the forums. Because if I'm asking a question, certainly other people have questions as well. I'm hoping that this will blow up into a huge post with lots of good information in it. So let's begin with some of the questions I've had and maybe some of the things I have the answers to so far. If anyone is contributing, please state what your question is pertaining to as to whether it's regarding a wet, dry, direct port setup, etc to make sure the questions/answers given is in relation to THAT topic. Because we don't wanna see anyone blow up an engine due to a misunderstanding on this topic. So let's begin....

-Why would I want a Direct Port, Wet, or Dry from one over the other and advantages/disadvantages of each. Why would I want to run a 50 shot of dry over a 50 of wet for example?
-When to activate the nitrous and when to shut it off? Just for stalling a converter or all the way down the track? And why would I want to do one over the other? This should pertain to the 5 speed guys as well.
-What afr should I see while stalling for a launch? If I run it down the track, what should the afr's be while driving it? Does the fuel being used make a difference for the desired afr I want to target?
-What should an octane table look like when using the nitrous? What should a timing table look like? Examples would be great.
-What is a good bottle pressure to be running with nitrous? What happens if I spray outside of those parameters?
-Does the coolant temps matter when spraying?
-How long does it take for a bottle warmer take to get a bottle up to temps before I can use it?
-What happens if I run out of nitrous while racing?
-How to prevent a nitrous backfire and/or blowing up my engine?
-Can I use 2-step and/or Anti-lag with nitrous?
-Should I purge my system before each race? Only after the bottle is newly filled?
-How do I know what size jet to use and how do I know what is too big?
-Which plug and gap do you recommend using? Which heat range?
-How long should I expect a bottle of nitrous to last before needing to fill again?
-Should I use a single stage or dual stage? If I use a 2-step and need to stop spraying, how soon should I turn off before using the 2-step and/or before I turn the nitrous back on again?
-Does nitrous build boost when I stall? How long should it take to stall a converter with nitrous? Should I turn off the nitrous when I reach the desired rpm's for stalling, or stay on it until the light drops on the tree and/or staying in it all the way down the track?
-What to look for when inspecting plugs when using nitrous?
-If my ignition system breaks up while using nitrous, can that hurt my engine or cause a nitrous backfire?
-Does the turbine housing of my turbo make a difference and what about exhaust gas back pressure due to the nitrous?

I'll stop there but you can see all the questions in my head regarding nitrous and reason I felt it's best to make a post so as to not pester people to death. Lol. Please post your questions and/or answers at will to help everyone out. Feel free to copy and paste the questions I've posted and then answer each if that makes life easier. If you've made it this far, I appreciate you.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Of course I'm new to this but here are some of my current settings that I'm sure I'll be adjusting on mine personally but this is to basically get things sorted out. I have a rather large turbo (Borg Warner S476 SXE) and sure I'll need around a 75 to 100 shot but I need to make sure I'm not screwing it up. I'm trying to make it to the track on the 10th and initially just want to use it to stall the converter which is a Precision #6 which is pretty tight. But feel free to critique my settings as I'm a totally green newb in this area.

My launch limit is 7000 because I have an M&W box with no 2-step control so I don't want the 2-step kicking in if I'm spraying.
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I'm enabling the secondary fuel adjustments because I'll be using a wet system because Ecmlink just isn't giving me enough fuel with the dry setup. Not sure if I'll need to be pulling any fuel out.
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Since my turbo is pretty huge, I'm sure I'll be upping the max rpm for it to be spraying to keep it moving once I let off the brakes, and probably keep spraying at least through all of 1st gear. I'm sure that'll be in the 50-60+ mph range. I didn't want to enable to max speed in the case that I get a spike in the log that causes it to shut off and then on again. Depending on if the converter goes too high and I need to shut it off and then use the 2-step to limit my rpm's for the launch or not, I might need to turn it off and then back on using a EGR output once the 2-step goes off. But that's a test still to be performed. Just the FPS for now.
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My max octane table for now using E85, although I will be ditching the E85 after this tank runs dry and using pump 91/93 and an AEM meth kit with two 1000cc nozzles to try and achieve a 1000hp level. This table may stay the same.
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The minimum octane for when the secondary map kicks in with the nitrous. I have noooooo idea if this is a good starting point to use with a wet kit at the moment though and still a little fuzzy on the desired afr with pump gas/meth injection.
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Max timing table I'm using at the moment with E85. This could stay the same or have to change depending on what the car likes with the meth.
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And lastly, the minimum octane where I just copied the max table, and subtracted about 5 degrees in the nitrous area and ramped it back up a bit just before the nitrous turns back off.
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P.S. I don't expect people to answer every question I've listed here but would be great for people to just share some of what they know so we can compare notes and maybe get ideas or learn new things on the topic.
 
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ist dwa

Proven Member
537
296
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
Dude you want a books worth of answers. I could answer all of those questions except the auto stalling questions and it would take me hours to do so.

Start researching the V8 forums, there is tons of all that info out there by doing simple google searches.

I'll add this, Nitrous works, but it's very taxing on the system even if you use it just right. It's all about setting it up perfectly with all the checks and balances in the system. You have to have EVERY safety feature with switches and arming perfect , 1 wrong turn ruins your shit. Then you get into semantics with the thing running Nitrous through NLTS, etc. Fueling is easy you just adjust pills to lower or raise A/F ratios.

IMO on a DSM running anything less than a 75 is pointless, it just doesn't do anything, but once running a 100 .......things get real, real quick when also running high boost, you will over spin your turbo, you have to keep the turbo in check with boost cuts.

Do a ton of research and just try it for yourself, that's how you really learn, at some point I myself just had to try it, for the most part I have been successful running it in multiple turbo setups for years now, nothing has blown up yet, your tuning MUST be SPOT on. Any car this is poorly tuned and you try to add nitrous I can GAURANTEE it will fail and fail very quickly.

Good Luck!! Oh, and you have to baby sit it, because what .....it's a bottle and babies need their bottle.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Appreciate the input. However, yeah, I guess you're right. I do want a books worth of information. Maybe not by one person. But tid bits here and there to make the book.

I've been trying to research other places but not sure if things that apply to V8's apply to 4g63's. Are the afr's and timing targets the same? Do they react the same, and so on? They're not awd so do we need to stall differently to keep from breaking axles, etc?

There's a lot of little things I (and I'm sure I don't just speak for myself) don't know that make up the big picture. But what I will say is this. People say to search. We search for information that's been posted and posted to help each other out. And that's what this post is for. But to try and consolidate a lot of the answers all in one place. To make it easier so when someone has a question, they can say, "Hey look over this post. It has a wealth of knowledge and you don't have to search long because it's all in that post". That's what I'm trying to do here.
 

ist dwa

Proven Member
537
296
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
Very few and I mean almost no one runs Nitrous in a DSM (for power, not for stalling converters) nor have they ever so the information here is about nada. That's why you gotta go to V8 forums, and trying to find Nitrous info on turbo cars is even more rare because most V8s aren't turbo charged.

Make your own internet book, do the searches yourself, you are never going to get the answers you desire on Tuners, that not a slight but reality. I've been down this path.
 
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v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Very few and I mean almost no one runs Nitrous in a DSM (for power, not for stalling converters) nor have they ever so the information here is about nada. That's why you gotta go to V8 forums, and trying to find Nitrous info on turbo cars is even more rare because most V8s aren't turbo charged.

Make your own internet book, do the searches yourself, you are never going to get the answers your desire on Tuners, that not a slight but reality. I've been down this path.
Well, that's why I'm trying to bring it here. Because we don't have the information. No one really had information on auto transmissions for our cars, so I made YouTube videos and even posted them here. Same with nitrous. It's not here until we get it here. Once I learn it, I'll know it. But how will that help others by keeping it to myself?

If there's anything you care to share, please feel free to share. I can only contribute what I know otherwise I would have been doing so already. I don't mind.

On that note, from my experience so far, using dry kits, ecmlink hasn't done a good job of adding fuel when I stall the converter. I don't wanna go lean and ruin anything. So I'm going to use it as a wet kit instead so that I can add the fuel. But then worried about nitrous misfires. I'd love to use it pulling all through first gear which is a decent mph. But I'm taking it slow. And being that I'm about to convert from E85 to pump and meth, I have no idea what to look for, for target afr's compared to the E85. That's where I'm at. But gonna start small with a 35 shot just to make sure everything is working properly.
 

DSMPT

DSM Wiseman
1,999
1,553
Jun 12, 2014
Japan / Mexico, Arizona
And that's what this post is for. But to try and consolidate a lot of the answers all in one place. To make it easier so when someone has a question, they can say, "Hey look over this post. It has a wealth of knowledge and you don't have to search long because it's all in that post". That's what I'm trying to do here.
I think it's a good idea, this would help people who plan to run nitrous on DSM since actually there is no many info exist.
I have nitrous on both my manual 1g and auto 2g. Both wet single nozzle, running up to 250 shot. Since there is not many info, I have done many trial and error by myself. And YES I destroyed several engines, but I think I learned many things from the errors. I believe that it would be useful and fun, if you know how to properly control. I'm not a super guru but I am willing to share my real experience.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
I think it's a good idea, this would help people who plan to run nitrous on DSM since actually there is no many info exist.
I have nitrous on both my manual 1g and auto 2g. Both wet single nozzle, running up to 250 shot. Since there is not many info, I have done many trial and error by myself. And YES I destroyed several engines, but I think I learned many things from the errors. I believe that it would be useful and fun, if you know how to properly control. I'm not a super guru but I am willing to share my real experience.
Lol, well share away with what you learned. 🤣
 

DSMPT

DSM Wiseman
1,999
1,553
Jun 12, 2014
Japan / Mexico, Arizona
Before I did a simple test with a common wet single nozzle kit on my auto 2g GSX. I would share the result in here.
I have no access to dyno, so I can't provide the exact HP number. But hope this can be a little example for someone who is planning/starting to play with nitrous.

I went to the 1/4 mile track to see how much difference it would actually make by spraying from 0 shot to 175 shot. I ran a couple of times on each jetting to get average time.
I simply changed the jets and sprayed. I didn't change any setting like A/F, boost pressure, ignition timing, spark plugs gap etc. I didn't spray at line. Did nothing special for launching. Just pressed both brake and gas pedal on the 1st amber light and released the brake when the light got green. And I activated the nitrous after the car started moving. Launch was around 2000-2500 RPM and had only a few psi of boost.

The car was a full equipped 2g auto GSX w/ 6 bolt block, stock pistons/rods and mods below. It had no heavy mods at all. Just a lightly modified daily car.

16g w/7cm housing
Small SRT4 Factory FMIC
650cc injectors
Old 5 knob SAFC and ITC.
Knock monitor
Spark plug BPR7ES w/ .024 gap
Stock cams
EVO 2 intake manifold
Stock exhaust system (CAT deleted)
Stock torque converter
Stock transmission
FD Rims w/ street tires
20-22 psi of boost/91 pump gas/Water Methanol
No nitrous bottle heater. (The pressure was a little bit low, it was slightly below 900 psi)

Without Nitrous : The car was running somewhere in high/mid 14s.
35 shot : I saw no real difference. The differences seemed to be no more than the difference of accuracy on each pass.
50 shot : I started to see a small difference, but not that much, maybe lowered a couple of 0.1 sec. The car started running in mid/low 14s constantly.
75 shot : It clearly started to lower the time. The car started running in high 13s.
100 shot : The car started running in mid/low 13s.
125 shot : This gave me the best result for the setup mentioned above. The car started running in high 12s.
150 shot : It stopped making difference. I saw no gain from 125 shot. (From here, obviously I needed some adjustment on tuning and larger wastegate port and exhaust system)
175 shot : It was obviously less effective than 100 or 125 shot.

* The result was with the mods mentioned above. You would have a different result if you have a different setup. Especially cams, exhaust parts size/flow and the bottle pressure would affect.
* The jet numbers were selected by following manufacturer's instruction. Usually if you select a fuel jet according to manufacturer's instruction by following base fuel pressure, it would go rich side when you boost since the fuel pressure would be raised by manifold pressure. So with a smaller fuel jet may make the car run better in some case. The best way is you adjust the fuel through ECU even with a wet kit.
* You can manually ON/OFF the nitrous but you need extra caution, and I don't really recommended that. If a wet single nozzle kit is used on manual transmission car, you shouldn't spray while shifting if you are lifting gas pedal to shift. You don't want BOV spreads fresh fuel under the hood and catch fire. So at least, have a WOT switch for safety. If you have no way to control it through ECU, combine with a rpm window switch or/and a pressure switch would be much safer.
* If you stop seeing any gain with proper tuning/setup, probably that's the limit for your current setup. DO NOT attempt to push the car more by using larger jets or widen the spraying RPM range, you would actually make less power and you would be just giving too much stress on parts, then something bad will happen shortly. I bent rods, cracked cylinder wall and broke rod bolts. All those happened after few attempts when I kept pushing the car by using larger jets even I wasn't actually gaining anything.
 
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ist dwa

Proven Member
537
296
Nov 5, 2009
Centerville, Ohio
35 shot : I saw no real difference. The differences seemed to be no more than the difference of accuracy on each pass.
50 shot : I started to see a small difference, but not that much, maybe lowered a couple of 0.1 sec. The car started running in mid/low 14s constantly.
75 shot : It clearly started to lower the time. The car started running in high 13s.
100 shot : The car started running in mid/low 13s.
125 shot : This gave me the best result for the setup mentioned above. The car started running in high 12s.
150 shot : It stopped making difference. I saw no gain from 125 shot. (From here, obviously I needed some adjustment on tuning and larger wastegate port and exhaust system)
175 shot : It was obviously less effective than 100 or 125 shot.


I concur with all of this to a T. IMO the nitrous starts to over whelm the hotside of a turbo and it needs to be bigger to handle the extra UMMPH. Point being, if he would have transitioned to an 8cm hotside the 150 shot would have been more responsive, too much shit being pushed down into a too small of hole!! This isn't a knock, mine did the same thing, IMO you need a 1 size bigger up hot side to take full advantage of the NO2.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Biggest 3 questions I personally have right here.

1. What afr are y'all targeting while stalling a converter with pump or E85 (dry/wet kit)?

2. If you're going down the track are you trying to keep the same afr? Example, you target 10.0 while stalling, are you targeting that all the way down the track while nitrous is on?

And 3. Does the target afr differ depending on if you're using a wet or dry kit?
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
So using a Dry 35 shot, I couldn't achieve my target afr and set it down to 8.0 and still only managed 11 or so afr (logs attached). Put in my wet shot and I managed to hit it pretty spot on at 10.0 afr. Had to bump my rpm's down to 2300 to activate the nitrous though because 2500 was too high. This is a Precision #6 converter from Jeff Bush and guess it's a pretty tight converter.

I've read not to turn on a wet shot sooner than 3000 rpm's but that's where I'm not sure if that V8 talk applies here because otherwise I'll just never get there. Any opinions? Thoughts? The wet shot hit it pretty dead on but just hoping that's a good afr. Someone critique this thing. 76mm turbo just as an fyi.

I'm only on a 35 shot here for testing purposes but wondering how well it'll do when I move up to a bigger one.
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  • Dry 35 shot. 3-26-22.elg
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  • Wet 35 Shot. 4-5-22.elg
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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,127
4,962
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
If the converter is that tight (mine is too), you will have to get on the juice before 3000 rpms. Just make sure you are at WOT and DON'T let off then go WOT again, that is where you would risk a NOS backfire with a wet shot. I am meaning, don't let off the button and then get back on it. That is when it gets risky. When I ran NOS on my V8, I would use it whenever I wanted. That car was geared very low in the dif so I never got to use it until 3rd and 4th gear (4 speed car) as all it would do is toast the tires, but just goofing around I would hit the button when just cruising (for just a second) and it never ever gave me any issues, it just revved the motor some. It is a 150 plate shot that I ran back then and supplied fuel with a Holley Blue electric fuel pump. I still have that setup and 2 other plate systems (one being a 300 shot, variable) plus my nozzles for my DSM's. I have used NOS since 1982 so I might be able to answer some questions.
Marty
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,127
4,962
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Ya know guys, I've always wondered how a 6 bolt 4g motor would run on JUST NOS and no turbo. In my experience and seat of the pants feel, both hit hard and fast when compared to each other. Both increase cylinder pressure and make the motor come to life but the bottle is an on demand system.
Just something I've been thinking about if I ever get my "normal" turbo car to work.
Food for thought and just adding more questions than answers so my apologies on that.
The following pictures are what I plan to do when I get my car fueling correctly, its a wet shot "magic" box, ZEX #82218 ;):cool:
Marty

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v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
So I went from a Borg S476 to a S369 to make life a little bit easier on me and not have to spray the whole freaking bottle just to get moving. I tried yesterday with the 75 jets just because they were already in there. Was lean and the car jumped forward and the brakes wouldn't hold it back. So I dropped it down to 35 jets like I should've had in there to begin with and made some fueling adjustments. Car stayed planted where it should've but not sure if I should throw the 50 jets in there. Assuming this is a bit long to get into it with the 35 jets??? I dunno. Anyone care to critique?

Fyi, I'm running meth injection and trying to pull the fuel back for wot so it's not so rich so ignore the fuel sliders. Irrelevant to this post anyway. But trying to get the nitrous sorted out and hoping I'm closer to where I need to be now. Prefer feedback from those that know more than me on this topic though. Thanks!!!
 

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  • S369. 35 wet shot test. 5-18-22.elg
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  • S369. 75 Shot test. 5-16-22.elg
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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,127
4,962
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Do you have to stay on the NOS long with the 35s in it? Does it come up on boost with those little jets?
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Well, if the log is showing on my post, you'll see I was full throttle for about 3.8 seconds and got about 4 pounds of boost and got to 3500 rpms. I have no idea how long it normally takes for other people though with whatever they have. Precision #6 converter.
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,896
558
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
I have zero experience with N2O, so I can’t offer any advice but I am commenting just to follow the thread. I plan to use nitrous in the future to not have to deal with a loose converter on the street. I’d love to keep the stock converter and just use nitrous for the 60’ only or until boost came in strong. The 2G OEM converter is too tight to launch properly on a 16G sized turbo where as the 1G converters don’t have this issue.

Thanks to all those actually willing to share their experience and advice and not just say “go search”. We n00bz appreciate it!
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
"Go search" replies drive me nuts. How bout post a link or just don't comment?

Trying to add all the experience I can because I'm sure it's gonna help someone. Sometimes it even helps myself. Lol. I was making the auto transmission videos and TRE had my center diff to weld. Took so long to get it back that I forgot how to put it back together. Luckily I was making videos and I had to refer back to them and it certainly saved my life.
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,896
558
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
"Go search" replies drive me nuts. How bout post a link or just don't comment?

Trying to add all the experience I can because I'm sure it's gonna help someone. Sometimes it even helps myself. Lol. I was making the auto transmission videos and TRE had my center diff to weld. Took so long to get it back that I forgot how to put it back together. Luckily I was making videos and I had to refer back to them and it certainly saved my life.

DSMTalk used to be bad about that and DSMTuners used to be more open and kind about asking questions and not just saying “LOL search”.

I’d understand if there were thousands of nitrous threads and it was the same basic question like “how do I put a 14b on my 2G” or “how do I turbo my 420a” type stuff, but this is good important info that hasn’t been covered yet. At least not here. I’d rather be ignored than just have the “do a search, you’re not worth my time” responses.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
I think I posted this log elsewhere on here but maybe not. So I put in the 50 jets yesterday and took it for a spin last night. It felt pretty dang good and strong for only 30 psi on the S369 turbo that I recently purchased. But I'm thinking of stepping up to a 75 shot if I can keep the car planted while stalling. Wanting to get the slingshot effect with the nitrous out of the hole. Making some fuel adjustments to richen it up a bit at wot where I need it. But I'm curious as to what afr I would need if nitrous is on while the meth injection is spraying. Including pictures of what I'm changing my settings to if I throw in the 75 jets. Trying to stay in it through most of 1st gear so I'm raising the boost parameter so it doesn't shut off early but using a higher speed or rpm instead. Keeping in mind this is a wet kit. Thoughts? Opinions?

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Min Timing for Nitrous
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Max Timing where Meth injection would normally be used but in most of 1st gear, would be nitrous and meth at the same time.
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And why this one wants to be posted again I don't know. I can't seem to delete it no matter how many times I edit my post and remove it. So just ignore this one.
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  • S369. 30 psi. 50 Shot. 5-18-22.elg
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v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
So just an update but my older daughter wanted a ride today and I wanted to test changes with the Dragy to see about where I stand before getting to the track. This log was at 35 psi and let off after I saw the 1/8th mile time and coasted after that. My 60ft is killing me so have to work on the launch. Would be running 6's otherwise on this boost if I could get a good launch. Plan on getting back to the track this Friday but I'll be bumping up the boost when I'm there. I'm stalling up in 2nd but my timing is crossing from high to low, and then stays low when I launch which I'm going to fix.
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This is what I'm gonna try, to keep it out of that high area at the top, and then ramp it back up as soon as I start moving while the nitrous is on.
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One of the things that hasn't really helped me much is not really knowing where my timing should be during stall up. Just told it should be low to help build boost. A guy named Sid McMullen on my Facebook page advised me I should be around 5 degrees on the launch, and then around 11 degrees or so after the launch. I'm definitely nowhere near that. But that gives me a better starting point. So basically I'm trying to ramp it right back up after the launch. Guess we'll see how it goes come Friday. This is on a 50 shot by the way. Might have to go to 75 if my 60ft doesn't improve. Wish me luck. I'll post back when I have updates on it.
 

Attachments

  • S369. Dragy Test. 35 psi. 5-28-22.elg
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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,127
4,962
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Put -10* in the 4 boxes that the car is in on your VE table during stallup and see if she builds boost better. I have a log called "launch tune" that my son used on his 95 TSI, no NOS. HERE is how it left the line.
 

v8s_are_slow

Proven Member
2,769
240
Sep 30, 2002
Panama City, Florida
Shawn posted this on Facebook, so guess I'm changing the timing table a bit and testing out the antilag. I didn't think I could use it at the same time so I'm happy he's correcting me on that.

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1990TSIAWDTALON

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Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Nice information! Thanks for posting it! :thumb:
 
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