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The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

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Wow, I'm out of it. Missed this too. Yeah, that's all. I just think it's nice to compare. That's what alot of this is all about. Comparing numbers. It's fun to me, especially since I'm not ouy executing like some of you guys are.

Well your curiosity is driving mine just to see what kind of numbers I am making. I'm in the process of swapping trans back to the fwd. I have til the 5th of Oct to be track ready. That's a lot of time in between. Maybe I'll schedule an apt to get a number on the rollers.
 
Well your curiosity is driving mine just to see what kind of numbers I am making. I'm in the process of swapping trans back to the fwd. I have til the 5th of Oct to be track ready. That's a lot of time in between. Maybe I'll schedule an apt to get a number on the rollers.

Awesome.

Have you done anything to possibly drop your overall weight under 2000?
 
Just glancing through this and thought i'd toss some thoughts/info out there.

Shane: As far as your knock goes, I'd leave the AFRs a bit rich and play with timing until you see the annealing point on the plug where you want it.. Also I hope your running a non-projected tip plug, a projected tip plug can give you odd knock readings. I wouldn't step to a hotter plug, we normally use a BR8ES on E85.

As far as how hp gains on the dyno relate to track ET/MPH. When I changed cams/compression at the end of last year I only gained 20whp and 15 ft/lbs. My times went from 10.48/128 to 10.26 @133, Although the peak numbers didn't change much the average was quite a bit higher. Lots to consider when looking at power gains.. Tuning by MPH works well because your normally not going to make changes that will lower the average and increase the peak numbers. Generally dropping average HP with an increase in peak power is related to a combo change. Like camshaft/intake manifold etc. etc.
 
Shane: As far as your knock goes, I'd leave the AFRs a bit rich and play with timing until you see the annealing point on the plug where you want it.. Also I hope your running a non-projected tip plug, a projected tip plug can give you odd knock readings. I wouldn't step to a hotter plug, we normally use a BR8ES on E85.
.

I've always ran the projected tip plugs. But, I've read advice back and forth on them. I'll give some non-projected tips a try when I pick up some new ones.
 
Awesome.

Have you done anything to possibly drop your overall weight under 2000?

Always adding after the fact LOL.

Weights still the same. The overall weight can drop a few lbs on a cheap diet. After that its where it starts getting expensive. Aside from me losing 20lbs I plan on doing a few things to try and get it under 2k. Lexan front window, lightweight brakes, chromoly tube front end. I can probably think of some other thing but we are talking single digit lbs with that.

Under 2k is a goal.
Just glancing through this and thought i'd toss some thoughts/info out there.

As far as how hp gains on the dyno relate to track ET/MPH. When I changed cams/compression at the end of last year I only gained 20whp and 15 ft/lbs. My times went from 10.48/128 to 10.26 @133, Although the peak numbers didn't change much the average was quite a bit higher. Lots to consider when looking at power gains.. Tuning by MPH works well because your normally not going to make changes that will lower the average and increase the peak numbers. Generally dropping average HP with an increase in peak power is related to a combo change. Like camshaft/intake manifold etc. etc.

That's quite the mph gain for only 20hp and 15ft/lbs.
 
Always adding after the fact LOL.

Weights still the same. The overall weight can drop a few lbs on a cheap diet. After that its where it starts getting expensive. Aside from me losing 20lbs I plan on doing a few things to try and get it under 2k. Lexan front window, lightweight brakes, chromoly tube front end. I can probably think of some other thing but we are talking single digit lbs with that.

Under 2k is a goal.


That's quite the mph gain for only 20hp and 15ft/lbs.

Thats what I'm saying, peak power is a small part of the game..
 
Just glancing through this and thought i'd toss some thoughts/info out there.

Shane: As far as your knock goes, I'd leave the AFRs a bit rich and play with timing until you see the annealing point on the plug where you want it.. Also I hope your running a non-projected tip plug, a projected tip plug can give you odd knock readings. I wouldn't step to a hotter plug, we normally use a BR8ES on E85.

As far as how hp gains on the dyno relate to track ET/MPH. When I changed cams/compression at the end of last year I only gained 20whp and 15 ft/lbs. My times went from 10.48/128 to 10.26 @133, Although the peak numbers didn't change much the average was quite a bit higher. Lots to consider when looking at power gains.. Tuning by MPH works well because your normally not going to make changes that will lower the average and increase the peak numbers. Generally dropping average HP with an increase in peak power is related to a combo change. Like camshaft/intake manifold etc. etc.

Good call. We do seem to speak in terms of 'peak' hp rather than the more important ''area under the curve.''
 
So much easier to compare peak hp numbers though! But, the area under the curve is more important in the long run. Which is part of the reason I try not to get hung up on hp numbers. There is also so much variation dyno to dyno and day to day. But, it's still fun to compare and things can be learned by doing so. Hopefully I'll have a chance to figure out a date for that soon. I'm still trying to figure out the day to go racing. September 27th is the next day that there is a T&T and I should be available at the 1/4 strip. After that Oct. 12th is the next available T&T. Our local 1/8th finally opened up so there is a possibility I'll have a chance to try that out too. It's getting cooler and time is flying by on me!
 
Shane, looks like we are looking to run about the same time. I'm shooting for the 5th t&t, the 12th t&t, and then the next day is an event. All in Sacramento
 
So much easier to compare peak hp numbers though! But, the area under the curve is more important in the long run. Which is part of the reason I try not to get hung up on hp numbers. There is also so much variation dyno to dyno and day to day. But, it's still fun to compare and things can be learned by doing so. Hopefully I'll have a chance to figure out a date for that soon. I'm still trying to figure out the day to go racing. September 27th is the next day that there is a T&T and I should be available at the 1/4 strip. After that Oct. 12th is the next available T&T. Our local 1/8th finally opened up so there is a possibility I'll have a chance to try that out too. It's getting cooler and time is flying by on me!

It is the quick-n-easy comparo for sure.

That 1/8 strip sounds awesome. That's a great seat-time track since all of the driving is done before the 1/8, and us AWD guys are basically running an 1/8 mile race anyway.

Would love to have an 1/8 around here. I live in the wrong state. The only strip that was here, closed in 1986, and now is the Consumer Reports auto test site.

Shane, looks like we are looking to run about the same time. I'm shooting for the 5th t&t, the 12th t&t, and then the next day is an event. All in Sacramento

Sounds good man.

Good luck to both!

How silly would it be if both of you dropped below 11.0?

Don't wanna jinx it so forget I said that...LOL
 
Just got back from the track, first pass was 11.92 @ 115.39, was a bit jerky on the launch, only a 1.73 60'. Next pass went 11.795 @ 115.85 with a 1.599. Backed it up with an 11.784 @ 115.12 and 1.586. Had 2 passes with better 60' times but missed 4th both times. Both of the 11.7 passes were 90.67 in the 1/8th. I'm guesstimating weight at around 2800 with me in the car.

Happy to finally have the 11 second monkey off my back, not to mention a new personal best on any car/setup (previous was 11.82 @ 123 on my S258 T3 setup on pump with my '90 TSI beater). I'll get the slips scanned and upload the vids tomorrow and post them up.
 
Congrats! Nice to see you were able to pull those numbers off...especially at that weight.

Updated list, regardless of English Racing's numbers. Once your slip or video is up, then the proof is there to kick the ER guys off the list!

1. Joe Bucci 10.876 @ 123.83 FWD - 2005
2. Justin Aichele 11.036 @ 125.59 FWD - 2013
3. Shane Webster 11.146 @ 118.17 AWD - 2013
4. Nate Crisman 11.377 @ 116.63 AWD - 2011
5. Phil Beers 11.497 @ 113.85 AWD - 2009
6. David Womer 11.514 @ 118.13 AWD - 2008
7. Leon Reitman 11.642 @ 116.56 AWD - 2004
8. Nick Carleton 11.767 @ 115.93 AWD - 2005
9. Aaron Sadorf 11.76 @ 113.37 FWD - 2008
10. Steve Strzempek 11.784 @ 115.12 AWD - 2013
 
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Congrats Steve!!!. I saw and commented on the pic Chris posted up on fb earlier. Was pretty excited to see another current 14b car bump up into the top 10 list this year.

Brandon I don't know if everyone else agrees since there is no slip, but Joe B did post on Tampa Dsm that he did go 10.84@126 on the 14b not long after his 10.87 slip was ran. That's the number I'm going for anyways.
 
Sounds good man.

Good luck to both!

How silly would it be if both of you dropped below 11.0?

Don't wanna jinx it so forget I said that...LOL

Us drop below an 11.0?? That's crazy talk right there. I ported my wastegate hole a bit tonight, think that's enough?
 
Brandon I don't know if everyone else agrees since there is no slip, but Joe B did post on Tampa Dsm that he did go 10.84@126 on the 14b not long after his 10.87 slip was ran. That's the number I'm going for anyways.

I would leave it as is. Not that I don't believe him, but having the proof (ie time slip or video) is what makes the record legit. So for the list, I say leave it...for beating the record, I agree...10.839 or quicker!
 
Justin, if you are looking more more weight, especially free weight, why not remove your rear brakes? It is a drag only car, no? You can runner a spacer for the wheel or turn down the rotor and run that as a spacer. This is what we did a few years back and it worked well. How about the parking brake as well? Or do you use it to stage/pre-load?
 
Justin, if you are looking more more weight, especially free weight, why not remove your rear brakes? It is a drag only car, no? You can runner a spacer for the wheel or turn down the rotor and run that as a spacer. This is what we did a few years back and it worked well. How about the parking brake as well? Or do you use it to stage/pre-load?

Just for safety reasons I plan to keep the rears. Only cause some tracks have shorter shut downs. It has crossed my mind to ditch them before. The design is just garbage. I have a staging brake that I'm going to install. With that ill probably ditch the ebrake setup altogether. But I do need something to get my burnouts goin for the times they are greedy with the water.

My preloads? Very carefully LOL. Once in the two-step I'll ease out of the clutch just enough to feel the car take up slack. Starts creepin ill use the ebrake.
 
Congrats! Nice to see you were able to pull those numbers off...especially at that weight.

Updated list, regardless of English Racing's numbers. Once your slip or video is up, then the proof is there to kick the ER guys off the list!

Congrats Steve!!!. I saw and commented on the pic Chris posted up on fb earlier. Was pretty excited to see another current 14b car bump up into the top 10 list this year.

Great job Steve! I knew the car had it in it! Welcome to the top ten. What are the plans now?

Thanks, guys! Here are the best slips of the night and a vid. Shane, my plan was to retire the 14b once I got it into the 11s. It's just too heavy to really be competitive so I don't see much point in pushing the car any more. I've got an HTA68 and an HTA76 sitting here. I was originally planning to run the HTA68 and shoot for 10s - my goal has always been 10s on a stock appearing turbo. Since I picked up the HTA76 at a great price, I may just go right to that though. I've also got a 2G head and EVO 3 intake manifold waiting to go on, along with an FP manifold.

Ideally, I'd like to do everything at once so the car may be done for the season. We'll see... Either way, I'm definitely hoping to put together another 14b setup down the line with a lighter car. If I get bumped from the top 10 maybe that'll give me some motivation to take another shot at it...

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Just for safety reasons I plan to keep the rears. Only cause some tracks have shorter shut downs. It has crossed my mind to ditch them before. The design is just garbage. I have a staging brake that I'm going to install. With that ill probably ditch the ebrake setup altogether. But I do need something to get my burnouts goin for the times they are greedy with the water.

My preloads? Very carefully LOL. Once in the two-step I'll ease out of the clutch just enough to feel the car take up slack. Starts creepin ill use the ebrake.

Have you checked the rule book? I was talking to Dave W. about possibly doing this a while back when I was working on my front brakes and he said that by the rulebook, brakes are required on all 4 corners.
 
Also I hope your running a non-projected tip plug, a projected tip plug can give you odd knock readings. I wouldn't step to a hotter plug, we normally use a BR8ES on E85.

I don't know that I agree with this. I feel that he is well below the threshold where a projected plug can cause knock.

What I do know is that the switch to a non projected plug required about 3* more timing on my car. That is indicative of it starting the fire close to the edge of the chamber, and slowing down the flame propagation. That WILL hurt power. I don't know how much, but it does. I also know that closing the gap, effectively retards the timing, as it excites less molecules. So once again it slows down the initial flame speed. I think I've seen this on my car, but it's hard to do enough back to back testing to be sure. Anyway I'd have the most protected plugs I could find, and the widest gap you can run. Your at the point every little bit counts.

Anyway the point is that anything you do that reduced the amount of timing needed is good because it brings the engine closer to a ideal carnot cycle, meaning there is less pressure before TDC, and the engine has to do less work compressing burning gasses, and thus more power is produced.

Believe it or not, I have read journal articles from the 1920's of guys trying to make the engine run under detonation conditions, because it produces the most power/most efficiency. This is somthing my old man used to preach "best mileage under a light ping condition" I have seen this in my car. Multiple times. Give the car timing, car makes a best pass, pull the plugs and they have light peppering. Take the timing out and the car slows down, and the plugs are clean. This was in Volume 44 of Mechanical Engineer, Author Elmer Sperry, I have a PDF if anyone wants it.


Anyway, here are some references about what I have to say.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/455161-uh-oh.html -

Post of mine talking about burn duration, timing and torque.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/462700-too-much-timing-hard-parts.html
 
Have you checked the rule book? I was talking to Dave W. about possibly doing this a while back when I was working on my front brakes and he said that by the rulebook, brakes are required on all 4 corners.

On this subject, I say removing rear brakes is a careless move. Especially in a stupid lightweight FWD car that's trapping 120+ mph. There's no weight in the rear and could definitely result in loss of control. If you want to take out more weight, save your coins, and step to the plate and buy a lightweight wilwood brake kit. Or risk your life, and maybe someone else's for .05 on your 14b timeslip.

The first time I heard mention of thisROFL

I don't know that I agree with this. I feel that he is well below the threshold where a projected plug can cause knock.

What I do know is that the switch to a non projected plug required about 3* more timing on my car. That is indicative of it starting the fire close to the edge of the chamber, and slowing down the flame propagation. That WILL hurt power. I don't know how much, but it does. I also know that closing the gap, effectively retards the timing, as it excites less molecules. So once again it slows down the initial flame speed. I think I've seen this on my car, but it's hard to do enough back to back testing to be sure. Anyway I'd have the most protected plugs I could find, and the widest gap you can run. Your at the point every little bit counts.

Anyway the point is that anything you do that reduced the amount of timing needed is good because it brings the engine closer to a ideal carnot cycle, meaning there is less pressure before TDC, and the engine has to do less work compressing burning gasses, and thus more power is produced.

Believe it or not, I have read journal articles from the 1920's of guys trying to make the engine run under detonation conditions, because it produces the most power/most efficiency. This is somthing my old man used to preach "best mileage under a light ping condition" I have seen this in my car. Multiple times. Give the car timing, car makes a best pass, pull the plugs and they have light peppering. Take the timing out and the car slows down, and the plugs are clean. This was in Volume 44 of Mechanical Engineer, Author Elmer Sperry, I have a PDF if anyone wants it.

Very interesting stuff.
 
The first time I heard mention of this

The rumor is that it's the same guy who is known to run ceramic wheel bearings to shave a tenth... (no clue if there's any truth to it, just heard it from the interwebz)

I've also heard of people pulling their calipers and compressing the pistons so the pads don't have any drag on the rotors. Then don't touch the brakes during staging/launch. Would REALLY want those last few hundredths to go that far, and you wouldn't be able to use the parking brake for burnouts or as a staging brake.
 
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