Tein Flex (2G) questions

[jtmcinder]

These questions are really (only) for people who have Tein Flex coil-overs on a 2G or someone like a vendor who has them in hand.

These questions only concern the front of the car (since this is where 2Gs have suspension-travel issues).

1) When the lower mount on the shock is set to make the shock body as short as possible, what is the distance from (a) the lip on the shock that sits on the top edge of the fork to (b) the top of the shock body? In other words, how long is the shock body as measured upwards from the top edge of the fork?

2) When the bumpstop is removed, what is the distance from (a) the lowest part of the spring-hat mount on the shock shaft to (b) the surface of the upper mounting plate that is in contact with the chassis?

These are the two values that are required to calculate the amount of suspension travel for any given amount of lowering of the car.

Thanks in advance.

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

Won't get answered on dsmtuners.

 

[jtmcinder]

I hope that you're wrong, but I suspect that you're right.

In some ways, I meant this as a test. So far, all I've done on this board is try to explain some things and correct some misconceptions, and, in many cases, all I've gotten in return is ad hominem crap. I enjoy the sorts of thing that I've done to some extent, but that recent exchange about understeer was really not enjoyable. So, I'm looking for a reason to stick around. I'm sure that the trolls that I've been forced to "own" will be delighted by the implication that I might not.

I'd miss you and Wret and Defiant and a few others, though.

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

I'm in the same boat. There are 3 boards I frequent. You know one of them, since I see you there. The other 2 are also great boards, I know you will prolly enjoy the other one (PM me if you interested, or email me off the autox list).

This pretty much the only forum in here. I check it in hopes of conversation other than "will these rims fit" shit. Its not happening.

I will continue to use this place for comedy. Its always fun to throw up a link with some of "THE guys" and get a good laugh out of it.

But I'm done. I'm done with answering the same questions. I'm done with lazy people that won't research their own questions first. I'm done with stupid people, with stupid posts. I'm done with carrying people through problems. I'm done with tooners.

 

[wret]

Should be in the mechanical drawings that come with the intructions. If not I'll see if I can take a peek at mine this weekend.

 

[jtmcinder]

Thanks a bunch. - Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Everyone else is napping, so I just measured my Koni/GC setup.

The distance from the lip near the bottom of the shock to the top of the shock is 10 1/8". The distance from the small cup against which the bumpstop presses and the top of the GC upper mounting plate is 1 3/8". So the total amount of travel eaten up by a Koni/GC setup (between the top of the fork and the chassis) is 11 1/2".

I'm still hoping that someone will measure these distances on a Tein Flex system and posts them. I really would like to know if switching to such will cost me anything in terms of travel.

- Jtoby

 

[igs]

 

[jtmcinder]

Cool. That appears to answer half of my question, in that it suggests that the shock body is 9.45" long (although I'm not sure where they measured the front shock, since the picture is of a rear shock).

The other half of my question concerns the "thickness" of the upper mount. The picture is of a shock that seems to use the stock upper bracket.

Thanks, though.

- Jtoby

 

[wret]

Sorry, I didn't get any play time this weekend to work on my car. It may have to wait a week, unless someone else can get some measurements in the mean time.

 

[jtmcinder]

That's cool. No hurry (yet).

On looking more carefully at what igs posted, it seems that the front shock bodies - when in the full-down position - are actually only 8.66" long (i.e., 9.45 minus 0.79). That would be great. Even if the pillowball and springhat are much thicker than a GC (fixed) plate, the bottom end seems to be freeing up about 1.5" relative to OTS Koni Yellows.

- Jtoby

 

[R Squared]

jtoby- I don't check this board much anymore for some of the same reasons as yourself. I have mine on jackstands now for a new FMIC so I can get you something midweek.

R

 

[jtmcinder]

In case anyone (else) is confused by the picture in the upper left of the image that igs posted, I suggest that you go to Tein's website and download the installation manual yourself. I'm willing to give igs the benefit of the doubt and simply say that what he posted is not from the current mnaual for Tein Flex for 2Gs and leave it at that. Grrrr.

- Jtoby

 

[R Squared]

JToby-I checked my manual tonight and it showed the same as IGS posted earlier. I also just checked the website and it states different values for the front C and D values, so I would assume that the setup is slightly different. The one he pictured states that it is for both the front and the rear shock body. I'm wondering if I should adjust my specs to the website?

 

[jtmcinder]

I'm glad I gave him the benefit of the doubt!

Yes, I'd change the settings to match the new version of the manual. If nothing else, the new manual at least seems aware of the fact that the front and rear shocks on a 2G use very different lower mounts.

Did you get a chance to measure the upper mount depth?

- Jtoby

 

[R Squared]

I posted it somewhere else, for some stupid reason. If I'm reading your description correctly the distance from the chassis mount to the top of the shock body is 5.5" I hope this helps your decision, if this doesn't sound right let me know.

 

[kiakarimi]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I hope that you're wrong, but I suspect that you're right.

In some ways, I meant this as a test. So far, all I've done on this board is try to explain some things and correct some misconceptions, and, in many cases, all I've gotten in return is ad hominem crap. I enjoy the sorts of thing that I've done to some extent, but that recent exchange about understeer was really not enjoyable. So, I'm looking for a reason to stick around. I'm sure that the trolls that I've been forced to "own" will be delighted by the implication that I might not.

I'd miss you and Wret and Defiant and a few others, though.

- Jtoby

I for one would not like to see you go. I know i couldn't answer that question (aside from the fact that i don't have Tein flex) but thats why i'm on this board. Everyday, several times a day in the suspension forum learning new things and i find that your posts are the most valuable. I also printed out your web page and study it like a bible. Anyways if there is some other cool place to learn about dsm suspension, let me in on the secret, otherwise this is all i've got.

 

[logic]

Originally posted by kiakarimi
I for one would not like to see you go.

I'll echo that sentiment; it's been a pleasant surprise seeing some of the more clueful dsm-autox folks (besides the DSMtuners regulars from there) pop in here from time to time.

JToby: You're running a Koni/GC combination, aren't you? Is this merely an interesting comparison modelling exercise, or are you switching setups? Feel free to elaborate.

Anyways if there is some other cool place to learn about dsm suspension, let me in on the secret, otherwise this is all i've got.

This is probably one of the best resources I've found for discussion (occasionally heated) of DSM suspension setups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dsm-autox/

 

[jtmcinder]

I've been running a GC/Koni setup with 500/400 and then 500/450 springs for about three years. I like it a lot, but there's one huge problem: the upper front plates from GC do not have a coaxial springhat.

Lots of people jump up and down about pillowballs, but for a lowered 2G on semi-serious springs, that's less than half of the issue. The real problem is that the spring does not hit the upper plate at a perfect right angle (and that the angle changes when you steer and bump). This imparts serious amounts of side-force on the shock shaft.

My front left Koni, for example, is toast. A rebuild might not even be possible.

The solution is a springhat that mounts to the shock-shaft and is, therefore, always exactly in line with the spring. In other words, a coaxial springhat.

I could wait for someone to start selling these for GC setups, ask RRE to make me a set for more money than I have, or I could try something new and different that already comes this way. Eenie, meanie ... Mo! So I'm getting Tein Flex with 10/8 rates (about 550/450).

The reason that I was pestering people to measure the upper mounts from a Tein Flex is that I wanted to know how much (if any) suspension travel I'm going to lose during this switch. When autoXing, you never - and I mean never - want to hit a front bumpstop. The car will wash out in an instant. You will have to lift, will probably bog, and the run is useless. But I also want the car at the same height as I was running with the GC/Koni set-up ... I think, but am not yet sure, if this will be possible.

- Jtoby

ps. special thanks to R squared for going the extra mile and calling me up and offering to measure his car ... even though it didn't work out, that was a very cool thing to do

 

[R Squared]

JToby-Please let me know what company will do the 10/8 springs (and valving), I have the 10/6 and would be interested in your feedback from the higher rear spring rates. I am currently working on getting a little more oversteer withought drastic changes, but this may be the only way. I have not hit my bumpstop(s) yet, but that doesn't meen it's not possible...

Hope you enjoy, please keep us updated.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by R Squared
JToby-Please let me know what company will do the 10/8 springs (and valving)...

Just call Mike Huml at SlowBoy Racing. 724 349-8417 According to Tein, you can go as high as 8kg in the rear without revalving. See if Mike can get you some of these springs to swap in. Then, if the rear is now underdamped (or the compression to rebound ratio is off), you can send then in to be revalved in the off season.

At least, that's my plan.

- Jtoby

 

[wret]

Is this what you are looking for?

The flange is about 1/4 inch and the base is about 1/2 so figure about 3/4 inch total.

 

[jtmcinder]

Yes. But in the meantime, it had finally soaked in to me that Tein Flexes only have coaxial springhats when it's a strut. The version for a 2G front is just a pillowball (which is why the 2G setup is cheaper). This is not acceptable to me. The pillowball will reduce a large part of the side-force problem, but I'm convinced that to bring the sideforce to zero, we must have a coaxial hat.

Why am I so worked up about coaxial springhats? Two reasons: I don't want to toast another front shock and I don't want the shock to suffer any "stiction" from the piston digging into the walls.

So I'm back to adding custom parts to my GC/Koni setup, after having the Konis rebuilt. But thanks for helping.

- Jtoby

 

[Jon Lane]

Jtoby- I may be adding Sports to my front GC/Eibach set, so I'm interested in where this went for you. (Currently I've got AGX's w/GC hats.)

Any progress with your project? If you need custom parts, I can offer A-CAD drafting if that helps...

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

Just call Mike Huml at SlowBoy Racing. 724 349-8417 According to Tein, you can go as high as 8kg in the rear without revalving. See if Mike can get you some of these springs to swap in. Then, if the rear is now underdamped (or the compression to rebound ratio is off), you can send then in to be revalved in the off season.

At least, that's my plan.

- Jtoby

Did you get these.....are they installed?