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T3 twin scroll vs T4 twinscroll ??

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ceedawg

Supporting Member
1,528
215
Nov 9, 2002
laurelton, New_York
This is one of the biggest dilemnas I have right now in my choice of exh mani's. The other thing is whether to go with 1.25 or 1.5" runners.

I spend quite some time on both EvoM.net and here at DSM tuners reading the different things said using either a T3 or a T4 TS mani. Seems like alot of the vendors,ETS,FullRace and others heavily promote the T4 mani with big hotsides(1.00+) especially if you are using a turbo like a 35r or bigger. I have heard that a T3 mani with anything bigger than a 30R with a big hotside will still choke the turbo higher up in the rpm range.

I see over here on DSM tuners guys like Dsmusmc,Steve93Talon have had pretty gd success using a S362 turbo with a TS t3 mani.
Anyone have any dyno's they can post where I could see a car using the same turbo,with pretty similar mods using either a T3 or a T4 TS so I could kinda see the difference. Driving experience would be gd to hear as well.

Right now I have a brandnew HX40 6 blade but I think I may sell it and get a S362BW turbo. I have about 4 different holset hotsides. 14,16,18c2m T3 hsings and 1 T4 19cm hsing. These maybe all up for sale once I get the S362 depending on if I go T4.

Either way I'm still confused as to what mani to go with. I've been very off and on again with my car but now I plan on building it since I've finally come into some nice extra cash. I'm looking to go atleast 550whp pump gas. Bottom end is already built.
 
I was going to build a full twin scoll HX35 set-up with a divided T3 JMF manifold.
FS: The Ultimate HX35 Twin Scroll Set-up - DSM Classifieds

I sold that set-up and bought the new Borg Warner 1.05 A/R TS T4 EFR7670.

I figured if I'm gonna drop $900+ on a true divided manifold it's going to be a divided T4.

If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it once, so I better do it right...

I too spend a lot of time over on the EvoM forums, and there have been tests done on different ID header tubing.
I called up a highly regarded fabricator who recently became a supporting vendor, and he and I chatted about twin scroll and my road racing goals.
We ended up talking about 1.25" ID exhaust manifold tubing and he told me about a test
using an open .82 A/R T3 set-up and both a 1.25" ID tubing manifold and a 1.50" ID tubing manifold.

From what he said the 1.25" ID tubing is good for 200-300rpm decrease in spool.
He said there were no losses in power output until up to 650whp where the 1.25" ID tubing becomes a slight restriction.

IIRC Buschur Racing did the test, but don't hold me to that.

I do not plan on ever running more than 600whp, so I choose to run a 1.25" ID primary tubing divided T4 exhaust manifold for my road racing goals of up to 600whp.
 
I was going to build a full twin scoll HX35 set-up with a divided T3 JMF manifold.
FS: The Ultimate HX35 Twin Scroll Set-up - DSM Classifieds

I sold that set-up and bought the new Borg Warner 1.05 A/R TS T4 EFR7670.

I figured if I'm gonna drop $900+ on a true divided manifold it's going to be a divided T4.

If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it once, so I better do it right...

I too spend a lot of time over on the EvoM forums, and there have been tests done on different ID header tubing.
I called up a highly regarded fabricator who recently became a supporting vendor, and he and I chatted about twin scroll and my road racing goals.
We ended up talking about 1.25" ID exhaust manifold tubing and he told me about a test
using an open .82 A/R T3 set-up and both a 1.25" ID tubing manifold and a 1.50" ID tubing manifold.

From what he said the 1.25" ID tubing is good for 200-300rpm decrease in spool.
He said there were no losses in power output until up to 650whp where the 1.25" ID tubing becomes a slight restriction.

IIRC Buschur Racing did the test, but don't hold me to that.

I do not plan on ever running more than 600whp, so I choose to run a 1.25" ID primary tubing divided T4 exhaust manifold for my road racing goals of up to 600whp.

This is my point do it right the first time. A T4 TS has more housing options. T4 TS 1.00 A/R really isn't as big and some think.

As far as tubing size goes this topic has been argued forever... 1.25 is where it's at!
 
If your going with the BW362 go with . 85ar on the divided T3 to get full potential. If you step up to the BW366 then go T4. I got rid of my JMFab manifold because I didn't like the fittment issues. You either have to run a 1G radiator or a smaller one and there is no room to get into anywhere to work on anything. Also that manifold was alot closer to the hood. Check out Redjack racing he makes really good manifolds and is a stand up guy. I really wish I was able to get some logs while it was going but should have link by the time the car is going again.
 
When Jim builds my divided T4 manifold he'll use 1.25" tubing.
This will yield a slightly more compact manifold in terms of clearances and work around.... fingers crossed.

C&R Racing is building me a custom dual pass radiator with both inlet-and-outlet on the passenger side end tank.
There will also be provisions for -4AN for either turbo and/or wastegate water lines.
 
There will also be provisions for -4AN for either turbo and/or wastegate water lines.
If they do this, make sure the -4AN (which is very small for turbo water lines, by the way) fittings are placed at both the bottom and top tanks so your device (turbo, wastegate) can circulate the water hot-to-cold. You'd be surprised how often I see guys plumb trans cooler lines and such totally wrong.
 
This is what I had in mind.

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What size water lines do you recommend using for turbo and waste-gate water lines?

The EFR7670 has provisions for CHRA water-cooling, but I thought it wasn't mandatory to water cool the EFR's?

I would imagine I want turbo and waste-gate hot water lines entering the upper right tank just below the -20AN hot water inlet from the engine correct?

Then for cold water to the turbo and wastegates I'd have AN fittings just above the -20AN cold water outlet to the engine, correct?

Now, do you think it would be better to place the -20AN cold water outlet at the top of the bottom half tank on the passenger side to ensure that the entire lower half of the radiator core is full of water with no potential air pockets?

***EDIT*** Full-Race recommends water-cooling. And apparently the fitting is a 14mm Banjo Bolt. ***EDIT***

http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-7670-turbo.html

And no, I did not pay that much for it either!
 
I was going to build a full twin scoll HX35 set-up with a divided T3 JMF manifold.
FS: The Ultimate HX35 Twin Scroll Set-up - DSM Classifieds

I sold that set-up and bought the new Borg Warner 1.05 A/R TS T4 EFR7670.

I figured if I'm gonna drop $900+ on a true divided manifold it's going to be a divided T4.

If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it once, so I better do it right...

I too spend a lot of time over on the EvoM forums, and there have been tests done on different ID header tubing.
I called up a highly regarded fabricator who recently became a supporting vendor, and he and I chatted about twin scroll and my road racing goals.
We ended up talking about 1.25" ID exhaust manifold tubing and he told me about a test
using an open .82 A/R T3 set-up and both a 1.25" ID tubing manifold and a 1.50" ID tubing manifold.

From what he said the 1.25" ID tubing is good for 200-300rpm decrease in spool.
He said there were no losses in power output until up to 650whp where the 1.25" ID tubing becomes a slight restriction.

IIRC Buschur Racing did the test, but don't hold me to that.

I do not plan on ever running more than 600whp, so I choose to run a 1.25" ID primary tubing divided T4 exhaust manifold for my road racing goals of up to 600whp.

Yes I've seen u ovr there alot strm trooper. If I can get 600whp or even more I will go T4. Guess I'd have to go with the 1.5" Just hope it won't be to laggy. I gotta decide between Full Race and ETS as far as building it.


If your going with the BW362 go with . 85ar on the divided T3 to get full potential. If you step up to the BW366 then go T4.

Dsmusmc I thought that the S362 would be a good candidate for a T4 but u say it's better in a T3 mani?

I can't argue with the #'s Steve93 Talon said that his friend made with the T3 TS 362 setup I guess. I heard or rather read that the 366 is laggy as hell.
 
The 362 in open T3 usually gets full boost around 4800. My buddy has the 366 in open T3 and sees full boost around 5100-5200. Going divided T3 or T4 would drop spool time for sure and now that the 366 has the option for the billet wheel it will spool even faster. Tim at Bullseye Power said the billet 366 blade will spool at the most 200 RPMs slower if not just as fast as the 362. Just something to think about.
 
The 362 in open T3 usually gets full boost around 4800. My buddy has the 366 in open T3 and sees full boost around 5100-5200. Going divided T3 or T4 would drop spool time for sure and now that the 366 has the option for the billet wheel it will spool even faster. Tim at Bullseye Power said the billet 366 blade will spool at the most 200 RPMs slower if not just as fast as the 362. Just something to think about.
4800rpm open T3 hsing is not bad at all. I surely wanna go TS and since the 366 with the billet wheel may be an option,depending on the price, I will look at it. I'm trying to get a FMIC and exh mani package setup with a popular vendor right now if it's possible . Hope to get a turbo soon after.:thumb:
 
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