1G Sufficient or restrictive? Ic, wg, etc (long post).. 600ish hp guys HELP

[Geeb]

Hey guys. Obviously by the post I'm on the road to 600hp, but it being winter time it's perfect time for part hoarding . This was always a budget build,
So my original setup was going to be..
-60 trim jb Garrett,
-ebay cast t3 manifold,
-fic 750cc,
-21x9x2.5(core)ic with 2.5" piping,
-tial 38mm,
-stock block,
-stock head,
-2.5 to 3inch dp to 3inch apexi exhaust,
-2g maf,
-walbro 255 with aeromotive fpr on stock lines to and from stock rail...
That was when I had 375, maybe 400hp goals...
And before I ever even started the car once, I got bored with it..

I've since disassembled the head and got
-ferrera ss valves,
-crower springs(then sold them and got)
-kiggly beehive springs, seats, and titanium retainers,
-felpro stem seals,
-hks 272s,
-unorthodox gears.

Im getting the block out now to get it bored out for the pistons i bought.
I now have
-manley h beams,
-manley pistons .040 over (going to coat with Techline's Powerkote CBX),
-eagle 4340 steel std crank

-fic 2150s,
-t3 pte bb 6165,
-3inch v band full TBE,
-ecmlink v3,
-aem wideband..

Future parts list include
-SD bundle (gm),
-with ethanol sensor adapter
-gm ethanol sensor (I'm gonna do a junk yard run this week maybe I'll get lucky)
-walboro e85 450lot
-8an feed, 6an return lines.
-(maybe) fic, or Magnus fuel rail
-built trans (tmz most likely, maybe tre or jacks who knows..)
-???
-???
-....???

So.. I guess now finally after that book comes a few questions.

Remember that intercooler I was talking about? The overall width is something like 27", but the core is like 21x9x2.75 with 2.75 in and out, it has 2.5" piping to a brand new greddy type FV bov. Is this piping and intercooler too small?
..This is one of the only aftermarket things that came with the car when I bought it.

And im still running the stock (maybe 2g, probably 1g) throttle body, and stock intake manifold. If I upgraded the piping to 3 inch, wouldn't the stock tb (about 2.1-2.2in I think) choke it out? Or are these parts still okay for my goals?

And that tial 38mm? see a lot of 600hp guys running 44mm. So is a 38 okay? Or is that gonna restrict me. (Ps. It's got a 15psi spring..)

Also I'm still running the ebay t3 cast manifold (turbonetics knock off) with a 38mm ext casted flange. I know this MIGHT work for a while. But I've heard some disaster stories about these (more positive stories then negative, but the few negatives are out there) of heat stress cracks all the way up to full breaks. So this will be something that replacing immediately will be based upon whether or not the tial 38mm will be effective enough. I hate adding adapters to things so if I have to upgrade to a 44 I'll just sell off what i got and save for what I need..

Question on the valves... The used ferrera ss valves I got, do I need a 3 angle valve job to get them to seat? Or could I just lap them with lapping compound and the suction cup tool? I already have those from when I lapped my stock valves to get them to seat and it did seal the stock ones, when I water tested them nothing leaked. But I don't know if I trust it with this higher hp build.

...thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[Operate]

In order to meet close to your goal with that turbo you will need to get rid of the ebay intercooler core and get a high quality ETS FMIC kit, 2.5" piping is more than sufficient at minimum a 3.5-4.0" intercooler core to keep efficiency up. You should get a high quality top mount T4 twin scroll tubular manifold and opt for the T4 .96 twinscroll turbine housing in order to break the 600 mark, if that is not an option and all you have is the .82 T3 and you are stuck with that then I dont think you will hit the 600whp mark on the turbonetics with the 38mm wastegate but should get 500 give or take which would still be awesome.

A sheet metal intake manifold and upgraded throttle body would help the cams but if that is not an option the stock intake manifold and throttle body will be okay until you can upgrade. The 2150 fuel injectors and 450lph fuel pump are awesome for now and the future, you could go with 1600cc fuel injectors but if you have the coin to get 2150's go ahead.

You do not want to second guess anything mechanical, its going to be 2017, not getting the machine work straight isnt worth it and not cool. I am assuming the machine shop had the .40 over pistons that they bored and honed the block to and made sure your piston to wall/piston ring clearances are what the manufacurer recommends for the power/boost how you are planning on using the pistons you have. The valve seats/valves need to be machined and vacuum tested, valve stem height set and head resurfaced/checked for flatness.

You can use a composite head gasket but if you want to use an mls get the block decked if it has not been, obviously upgraded head studs.

Rewire the fuel pump with 8-10 gauge wire and 30/40 amp or 75amp relay.

 

[HIGHPSI4]

The valves will have to be set to the seats. 38mm Tial probably not work at such a high exhaust flow. You will have to get a better TB and IM. A good exhaust manifold is necessary and should go straight to 3" out of the turbo. A better IC core will help as well. You are very close.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I can't help but think the Walbro 255 or 450 will not be enough pump for you. maybe a double pumper or adding an inline pump will get you to your goal. Neither of those pumps flow that much at high boost.

 

[Kapok6]

I can't help but think the Walbro 255 or 450 will not be enough pump for you. maybe a double pumper or adding an inline pump will get you to your goal. Neither of those pumps flow that much at high boost.

I run a single 450 with stock lines and filter on e85 and a DSM76 at 35-40psi. If that isn't 600, or stupid close, I don't know what is. The car trapped 130.75 and weighed 3395lbs. Do the math. Now if your looking for 600 at the wheels, I'd agree, a 450 by itself probably won't be enough.

 

[dexterholland04]

This is how I would do it, and why. I won't claim this to be the be-all-end-all way to build for 600+whp; but it's safe, works, and will leave you some room to grow:

Fuel:
On ethanol, you'll need a much larger pump. We made 610whp with one of our cars on STM's Mustang dyno completely maxing out an in-tank 255hp with an inline 044 pump. Personally, I like external pumps because they flow (a lot more)...but you'd have to move to a fuel cell setup to make it as painless as possible. JM Fab makes a sweet bolt-in cell for the 1g DSM, and it's not too expensive. I've made over 700whp with my car on STM's dyno using two 044 pumps. Still had room to make more power fuel-wise, too. If you want to stay with an in-tank solution, then two 255hp, or two aeromotive 300lph pumps could probably get you there.

Intercooler:
Trash what you have and just get a VRSF kit. No need to get some super expensive ETS kit if you're only going to make 600. Both cars I mentioned before had VRSF kits on them. Run a TiAL blow-off valve, period. They are bulletproof, made in the USA, and work.

Intake Manifold/Throttle Body:
You will need to run a sheet metal intake. A JM Fab race intake manifold should be fine. Also, I would recommend switching to a non-turbo throttle body. They're larger, and don't use the dumb flanged elbow that hits everything while coming off of the throttle body.

Wastegate:
How much boost are you planning to run? This will dictate the wastegate size you require. Low boost with larger turbos require more of a wastegate to allow low boost. I'd stick with a 44mm, and as much spring you can put in it.

Manifold:
Any legit tubular (non-eBay) manifold would work. T3, or T4 would get you there. I would say T3, since that's the back-housing you have on that PTE turbo. Open manifolds are the way to go IMO. They're logistically simpler...(no second gate and dumptube to route). The 500rpm difference in spool is really not worth the extra headache.

I think this should have answered your questions. Feel free to ask some more.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

If you need a t3 manifold to replace that cast one let me know

 

[Vegas Smith]

I run a single 450 with stock lines and filter on e85 and a DSM76 at 35-40psi. If that isn't 600, or stupid close, I don't know what is. The car trapped 130.75 and weighed 3395lbs. Do the math. Now if your looking for 600 at the wheels, I'd agree, a 450 by itself probably won't be enough.

I'm merely going off Walbro's chart they posted at 80psi (43.5psi + 36.5psi of boost) where it only flows 273L/hr. That is short of the project 307L/hr by the calculator below.
http://www.raceworks.com.au/calculators/fuel-pump-calculator/

But if it works for you then I believe you.

 

[Kapok6]

I'm merely going off Walbro's chart they posted at 80psi (43.5psi + 36.5psi of boost) where it only flows 273L/hr. That is short of the project 307L/hr by the calculator below.
http://www.raceworks.com.au/calculators/fuel-pump-calculator/

But if it works for you then I believe you.

I recently looked at the 450 chart as well and also wondered why I haven't had fueling issues based on their chart. Maybe they underrate them. I can only go off my personal experience.

 

[donniekak]

I'm merely going off Walbro's chart they posted at 80psi (43.5psi + 36.5psi of boost) where it only flows 273L/hr. That is short of the project 307L/hr by the calculator below.
http://www.raceworks.com.au/calculators/fuel-pump-calculator/

But if it works for you then I believe you.

I just vd'd 600 the other day with a 450, and made close to 700 on the previous setup. This is around the range they max out. For my current setup, I'll probably just throw another 450 in the tank.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I have been fine up to 38psi on my 450 with the 6466 gen2 but i have -8 feed -6 return so more vomume per psi. Punch the relief valve and itll be good! Or throw in an inline 044

 

[Kapok6]

I was gonna toss a 044 inline when I put a bigger turbo on as I'm not sure if I can fit two 450's on a 1g hanger...

 

[GST with PSI]

@Kapok6 @donniekak

What kind of injector duty cycles are you guys seeing? Got any logs?

 

[Kapok6]

That 130.75 was in my old/lower compression setup. Idcs were mid to high 60's up top. Absolutely no sign of running out of fuel. Afrs were mid to high 11's. Boost was 29psi. My new setup is a different ball game as this high comp/bigger cam motor is requiring a ton more fuel so my idcs now are in the upper 90's up top.

 

[donniekak]

My idc's are nowhere near running out of fuel. I'm running fic 1650's and a huge wire to the pump holding 13.5+ volts.

I'm running 43 psi base, and not even 30 psi of boost now, but my pump is a high pressure.

The same setup was plenty of fuel for a dsm82 at 40+ psi on e85. The fact that I usually run 12:1 ish afr's helps stretch the fuel system out. Also, my current setup is more rpm based to make power than big boost, as my latest run made peak power at 8,700+ rpms. So I don't have a lot of pressure at the pump.

When I run out of pump I'll just throw another in the tank and set it up to come on at 15psi of boost or so.

 

[boostdawd]

When I run out of pump I'll just throw another in the tank and set it up to come on at 15psi of boost or so.

Are u planning on using ecm links function to turn on the second pump? Similar to how others control NOS? Would that be a better option than using a Hobbs switch?

 

[donniekak]

Are u planning on using ecm links function to turn on the second pump? Similar to how others control NOS? Would that be a better option than using a Hobbs switch?

It would be an option that doesn't require me buying more stuff. I also like controlling everything I can from the Ecu.

 

[Geeb]

My tuner said a 450 would work but when I said to him 600 was my goal I didnt say whp.. So that mighta got lost in translation...


New problem... I only have a .63 ar hot side on my 6165... Yeah it's got a 3 inch tbe straight from the v band out but until I get at least a .82 I doubt I'll see more than like 550 n even that numbers filled with wishes n hopes

 

[Geeb]

Are u planning on using ecm links function to turn on the second pump? Similar to how others control NOS? Would that be a better option than using a Hobbs switch?

My boy has a walbro 255 to an aem 380 or w.e he runs aem ems and has it set to the second pump turns on after like 7 or 8 psi or something... Does link have something similar? I have it but I don't mess with it at all.. Learning all that comes after its built my brain can only take so much at once

 

[Operate]

Yeah, Geeb there is some great input in response to your questions in this thread, the .63 will not let you max that compressor If I remember its rated at 670hp so in order for you to put down 600whp with that compressor you would need to address the issues brought up by all of us here, once you get all of that taken care of you may need to explore the twin scroll T4 .96 housing to meet your goal ultimately so if you keep the .63 housing 400-450 would be a reasonable assumption on power output assuming everything is working together. I do stand by ETS Intercooler cores, I am aware that VRSF has a very inexpensive option available and that X cars managed to put X power through them but you should consider the compressor you are using and what efficiency it will operate at how you are using it, The ETS Race core would be more suitable in my opinion it is larger and more effiecient than the other unit.

Anyways what is your response to the input you have recieved from other members about making 600whp, any changes in your direction?

 

[7"exhaust_tip]

I apologize if this is thread jacking and will start a new thread if need be, but I have similar goals to that of the OP, and was wondering if anybody has ran a walbro 450 with a boost a pump? Will the higher voltage support 6xx whp on ethanol?

 

[Operate]

Rewired with 8-10 gauge wire and 30-75 amp relay will be enough for that power level on race gas or ethanol, you just need to have the right injectors for the fuel you are running and the power level you are trying to reach, a boost a pump will work fine if you reach the limitations of the stock 450 but at that point it would be easier to throw another 450 in the tank. 1600cc fuel injectors would work at that power level and keep injector duty cycles in check on ethanol.

 

[donniekak]

This is the highest dyno I've seen with a 450.
750hp, the poster said pressure was falling off. Either way, 600 is well within reach for a single hot wired 450.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[buddahboost]

My boy has a walbro 255 to an aem 380 or w.e he runs aem ems and has it set to the second pump turns on after like 7 or 8 psi or something... Does link have something similar? I have it but I don't mess with it at all.. Learning all that comes after its built my brain can only take so much at once

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=29050&cat=0

Hobbs switch. Not sure how to use it but there you go

This is the highest dyno I've seen with a 450.
750hp, the poster said pressure was falling off. Either way, 600 is well within reach for a single hot wired 450.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Is this with the large gauge wired directly to the pump? Err wha?

 

[donniekak]

Yes a heavy wire ran to a relay. I wouldn't run a 450 on stock wiring.