Stroker + e85 + GT30r | Is Mitsu Bolt on Enough?

[grantman10]

Ok, let me start by saying that i am new to the ball bearing turbo world. Having a 16g car and going out and buying a 2gb stroker GT30r on a whim, im now faced with major restrictions in the exhaust arena...

Mod List:
Base: 1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

Engine: (Fresh Rebuild)
6-bolt turbo block
4g64 Crank
Eagle Rods
Weisco Pistons 8:5:1
ARP head and main studs
Mitsubishi MLS Headgasket
Crower Springs
Titanium Retainers
Nitrided valves
BC 272 Cams

Flow:
SBR GT30r Bolt On (4" inlet comp side | surge?
Internally Gated
Stock 2g Manifold
Stock 2g o2 Housing
2.5" Until Flex, 3" Unrestricted
SBR Long Route Intercooler
Bushar UICP w/ Gus modded 1g bov
JMF SMIM
1g TB
4" Recirc Intake

Drivetrain:
TRE Stage 2 Trannsmission
ACT 2900
Stock Flywheel?
B&M Short Shifter
ES Shifter Plate Bushings
UH Shift Bushings

Fuel:
Walbro 255 (rewired)
Aeromotive AFPR
FIC 850cc Injectors

Tuning:
DSMLink V2
Greddy EGT
AEM wideband
Glowshift Oil Pressure
Unhacked 2g MAF
Turbo Timer / EBC

Suspension:
Eibach Prokit Springs
KYB GR-2 Struts
Polyurethane Bushings
Power Slot Rotors
Enkei RSF2 Wheels
225/45/17 Falken Ziex ZE-512

So i have been thinking of my plans with this car, and its getting a rebuild right now, so the different stroker parts are up in the air, but i want to reuse the crank and rods at least, heads fine.

Im going to get some nice parts on the car while the engine is getting built. With the GT30r when i drove the car I was getting full boost at about 3600-3800 (27-28psi). I think that is too high for my liking and want to drop it at least a couple hundred rpms (300 too much?) and get more efficient throughout the entire exhaust.

So here is what I am asking of you, what is the best path to get the lowest spooling, most efficient 93 oct and e85 monster as possible. If its the GT3076r, can't I get a FP Turbine housing and sell the bolt on? I wouldn't loose that much on the deal. The I would want a o2 mounted wg back to the downpipe. What is the turbine housing exaust size on the FP turbine housing.

Or would it be better to go t3 or t4? My friend has a tubular ex manifold flanged for a wastegate sitting in his garage. Could I get a 3" v-band out of the t3/4, after the flex section i have full 3".

I want better flow and get 400awhp on pump, and 500awhp on e85? I want below a 11.5 in the 1/4 mile. Is it possible, if so what do I need to change?

attached is a dsmlink v2 log where dynojetwb is actually the aem wb. i think boostest is off.

The Car
Engine Bay
Terbo

 

[grantman10]

Forgot to attach the log, two logs actually. One is 23psi on 93, and the other is a mix of 104 and 93 at 26psi. What kind of boost could this thing push on e85? Because im wondering if the turbo can get me to these goals.

 

[JusMX141]

From what I've experienced with turbos used by different customers of mine, it would be a good idea to switch to a T3-style turbine housing and exhaust manifold.

For example, a close buddy of mine running a PTE SCM6031E at the end of last season couldn't log more than 48-49 lb/min with that turbo on pump gas in a DSM bolt-on turbine housing at 28-30psi. At that point he would've been better with a 50-trim. He swapped the turbine housing for a .82 a/r T3 setup and went with a Turbonetics cast manifold, and the airflow numbers magically jumped up 8 lb/min or more. No other changes were made. He lost about 300-400rpms of spool time, but the tradeoff was well worth it!

Another issue he was facing was the DSM bolt-on housing / T31 turbine combo with the 9.0:1 compression pistons in his 6-bolt was causing knock at very low boost because of the excessive backpressure. This was remedied with a Meth injection setup, but the housing was still restricting the turbo from living up to the compressor's potential.

The only DSM bolt-on turbine housings capable of flowing what a T3 housing can come on FP turbos.

 

[grantman10]

FP Turbine Housing

Garrett T3

How can I tell if this is the gt3076r compressor wheel?

 

[2gGSX]

I find it weird that you have to add airflow to have BoostEst match up w/ actual boost pressure, as I haven't seen that too often. There's not too many things that cause this, but one thing that comes to mind is a pre-turbo intake leak somewhere.

The 23 psi and 26 psi logs don't really show any peak airflow differences, which leads me to think that you may be blowing the internal gate open.

As far as your goals, you're already in the 400-500 whp ballpark I'd think based on airflow and 70-90 times alone. If you did want more power, I would say consider an external wastegate before any major exhaust work. Although if you were really set on it, I'd recommend a small T4 setup over a large T3 as the spool characteristics can remain very comparable, while you still have room to grow.

 

[JusMX141]

How can I tell if this is the gt3076r compressor wheel?

Your compressor wheel has nothing to do with the turbine housing choice. I believe all GT30R's use the same turbine wheel.

FP gives you the lowdown right in the description for their 3065 turbo:

"Having a modern cartridge with ball bearings and super efficient blades isn't going to do anyone any good if it doesn't bolt up. The existing 7cm^2 and 8cm^2 Mitsubishi turbine housings were not only too small for the GT30 turbine wheel, but mass production design compromises such as an offset non-symetric volute and poor material made them very undesirable. It was decided to abandon attempts to force them to work. Design work started on a totally new turbine housing: a truly perfect turbine housing worthy of the GT30 CHRA."

Basically if you want to stick with a DSM exhaust manifold, you'll probably favor the FP turbine housing; if you want to lose your manifold, the T3 setup would be a good choice. Either way you'll be fabbing up a new downpipe setup- your wastegate will have to be placed on the manifold with the T3 housing or on the side of the turbine housing with the FP setup.

 

[grantman10]

From what I've experienced with turbos used by different customers of mine, it would be a good idea to switch to a T3-style turbine housing and exhaust manifold.

For example, a close buddy of mine running a PTE SCM6031E at the end of last season couldn't log more than 48-49 lb/min with that turbo on pump gas in a DSM bolt-on turbine housing at 28-30psi. At that point he would've been better with a 50-trim. He swapped the turbine housing for a .82 a/r T3 setup and went with a Turbonetics cast manifold, and the airflow numbers magically jumped up 8 lb/min or more. No other changes were made. He lost about 300-400rpms of spool time, but the tradeoff was well worth it!

Another issue he was facing was the DSM bolt-on housing / T31 turbine combo with the 9.0:1 compression pistons in his 6-bolt was causing knock at very low boost because of the excessive backpressure. This was remedied with a Meth injection setup, but the housing was still restricting the turbo from living up to the compressor's potential.

The only DSM bolt-on turbine housings capable of flowing what a T3 housing can come on FP turbos.

I like the sound of 8 more lbs, but I would really like to drop the spool time wile still flowing at least what I do now. I love the 16g like feel. Also, if the long route 2.25" piping FMIC is causing some spool delay I will ditch it for a SSAC. I recently put one on my 95gsx and I love it.

I was thinking the T3 .63 4 bolt discharge turbine housing. Heck, I may be able to sell my bolt on one with WG for at least half of that. Then buying the ex manifold off my friend.

 

[JusMX141]

I like the sound of 8 more lbs, but I would really like to drop the spool time wile still flowing at least what I do now. I love the 16g like feel. Also, if the long route 2.25" piping FMIC is causing some spool delay I will ditch it for a SSAC. I recently put one on my 95gsx and I love it.

I was thinking the T3 .63 4 bolt discharge turbine housing. Heck, I may be able to sell my bolt on one with WG for at least half of that. Then buying the ex manifold off my friend.

You're sort-of reaching that point where you're going to have to trade spool for flow if you want to make more power. I know the 16G-like hit is fun, but it's honestly holding that turbo back from reaching it's full potential.

Trust me- if you switch to the T3 housing, you'll love the power you'll gain on top. Back-to-back with the DSM housing, it's honestly like the car has a completely different powerband on top end...it never stops pulling until you shift.

My buddy's 2G had the exact SSAC Short-Route FMIC kit you're speaking of on it, and the 6031E made 457whp on pump gas with a very conservative tune (10.5:1 AFR's) at 34ish psi....of course, the turbo wouldn't stay together at that boost so he's dropping it in favor of a HX40 this season.

 

[grantman10]

I find it weird that you have to add airflow to have BoostEst match up w/ actual boost pressure, as I haven't seen that too often. There's not too many things that cause this, but one thing that comes to mind is a pre-turbo intake leak somewhere.

The 23 psi and 26 psi logs don't really show any peak airflow differences, which leads me to think that you may be blowing the internal gate open.

As far as your goals, you're already in the 400-500 whp ballpark I'd think based on airflow and 70-90 times alone. If you did want more power, I would say consider an external wastegate before any major exhaust work. Although if you were really set on it, I'd recommend a small T4 setup over a large T3 as the spool characteristics can remain very comparable, while you still have room to grow.

Yeah, those logs were from the previous owner and I think since the sliders were messed up it could have caused the airflow to be off. Is this a safe assumption? I think the car had a hacked maf for a while.

Where would one be able the find a t4 gt30 turbine housing. I lost on where the best place to buy those is.

 

[grantman10]

You're sort-of reaching that point where you're going to have to trade spool for flow if you want to make more power. I know the 16G-like hit is fun, but it's honestly holding that turbo back from reaching it's full potential.

Trust me- if you switch to the T3 housing, you'll love the power you'll gain on top. Back-to-back with the DSM housing, it's honestly like the car has a completely different powerband on top end...it never stops pulling until you shift.

My buddy's 2G had the exact SSAC Short-Route FMIC kit you're speaking of on it, and the 6031E made 457whp on pump gas with a very conservative tune (10.5:1 AFR's) at 34ish psi....of course, the turbo wouldn't stay together at that boost so he's dropping it in favor of a HX40 this season.

Which a/r turbine housing would you recommend? Is there that big of a difference between 2.5 and 3" discharge? 2.5 would be a little it easier modification wise with the dp, and the housing would cost less.

 

[JusMX141]

Which a/r turbine housing would you recommend? Is there that big of a difference between 2.5 and 3" discharge? 2.5 would be a little it easier modification wise with the dp, and the housing would cost less.

He used the .82 a/r which might've been overkill- he just didn't want to buy it twice if he got one too small. If you want to keep your quick spool, I'd say the .63 housing should be fine. It'll still outflow the DSM bolt-on housing hands down.

I believe the 2.5" or 3" discharge is only referring to the exhaust flange size at the turbine housing, although I could be wrong. The 30R's turbine is only so big- I can't see how one would be better than the other, but if you're doing all the fabbing now you may just want to fab it for 3". Someone else may be able to offer some insight here.

 

[2gGSX]

Yeah, those logs were from the previous owner and I think since the sliders were messed up it could have caused the airflow to be off. Is this a safe assumption? I think the car had a hacked maf for a while.

Where would one be able the find a t4 gt30 turbine housing. I lost on where the best place to buy those is.

I think I had a senior moment--I don't think there actually is a T4 for a GT30 CHRA...only the GT35 and up have them available.

If it has a hacked MAF, then bumping the airflow would make sense. If you replaced that with an unmolested MAF, then it's very likely that you're now overestimating airflow, which will cause you to appear to run rich. You'll have to look at BoostEst in comparison to actual boost pressure and see how they line up around ~5500 RPM or so.

 

[grantman10]

I think I had a senior moment--I don't think there actually is a T4 for a GT30 CHRA...only the GT35 and up have them available.

If it has a hacked MAF, then bumping the airflow would make sense. If you replaced that with an unmolested MAF, then it's very likely that you're now overestimating airflow, which will cause you to appear to run rich. You'll have to look at BoostEst in comparison to actual boost pressure and see how they line up around ~5500 RPM or so.

Yeah, hopefully that ex manifold my friend has is t3, I didn't even think about it. I swapped a 2g maf that I know hasn't been tampered with, but the car won't be up and running until spring, so I will zero out the sliders and start new.

 

[grantman10]

Is it possible that my turbo is the GT3071R, and not the GT3076R? Didn't ATP sell a bolt on GT30r that was the GT3071R version?

I just don't want to waste money switching over if there is not much left in this turbo.

Everything that I know about this turbo is as follows...

Slowboy Racing Bolt on GT30r
Internal Wastegate
4" Inlet (Isn't there 2 compressor covers that have 4" inlets, how do I tell which one this is?)

Thats it. Does anyone have any info on this turbo? Slowboys site wasnt much help, I might try emailing them to see what ive got, but there has to be ways of telling by looking at it, right?

 

[2gGSX]

Your best bet is going to be measuring the compressor wheel. The 3071 is 53.1/71.0mm and the 3076 is 57.0mm/76.2mm (inducer/exducer, of course).

 

[daren_p]

Your SBR bolt on Mitsu housing will defently be hurting flow & like was said, more power can be made from a T3 housing. But this will depend on a few things. As far as bolt on housings are concerned, the FP is defently the best route. If you want to stick to a "bolt-on" that would be the route to go & you should see some nice gains in flow vs the current setup. Compared to a .63 T3 housing the FP housing is going to be very similar in flow, so there's not a real flow benefit going that route. Now if you swap to a larger T3 housing, such as the .82 you will notice some top end flow of course at the cost of some low end. The FP housing is a good match up to around a 900 cfm turbo, at that point it will start to become abit of a restriction but will make it a spool happy turbo. Guys have ran 9's on the FP housing, so it does have the potential. The 3052, which is a 3076 in their FP housing is easily a mid 11 second turbo. I ran low 12's last year on mine when the car was fwd on DR's & I have no doubt it would have ran 11's this summer if the car was still fwd. I'll be awd & my goals are to run mid 11's on pump with meth injection & street tires. Should be able to do this with mid-upper 20's boost.

To compare flow I see right around 48lb/min at 26 psi. This is with an evoIII intake mani, FP1X cams & a 3" highflow cat. Ditch the cat, add a set of 272 varients & some sort of SMIM & the car will easily see 50+lb/min at those boost levels. The 3076 shouldn't have any problem seeing the 52lb/min its rated for when bolted to the FP turbine housing.

 

[grantman10]

Your SBR bolt on Mitsu housing will defently be hurting flow & like was said, more power can be made from a T3 housing. But this will depend on a few things. As far as bolt on housings are concerned, the FP is defently the best route. If you want to stick to a "bolt-on" that would be the route to go & you should see some nice gains in flow vs the current setup. Compared to a .63 T3 housing the FP housing is going to be very similar in flow, so there's not a real flow benefit going that route. Now if you swap to a larger T3 housing, such as the .82 you will notice some top end flow of course at the cost of some low end. The FP housing is a good match up to around a 900 cfm turbo, at that point it will start to become abit of a restriction but will make it a spool happy turbo. Guys have ran 9's on the FP housing, so it does have the potential. The 3052, which is a 3076 in their FP housing is easily a mid 11 second turbo. I ran low 12's last year on mine when the car was fwd on DR's & I have no doubt it would have ran 11's this summer if the car was still fwd. I'll be awd & my goals are to run mid 11's on pump with meth injection & street tires. Should be able to do this with mid-upper 20's boost.

To compare flow I see right around 48lb/min at 26 psi. This is with an evoIII intake mani, FP1X cams & a 3" highflow cat. Ditch the cat, add a set of 272 varients & some sort of SMIM & the car will easily see 50+lb/min at those boost levels. The 3076 shouldn't have any problem seeing the 52lb/min its rated for when bolted to the FP turbine housing.

As always, awesome post! About 80% of all the information I have learned about the GT3076 has come from your posts.

I just PMed Jeff from slowboy to make sure that the turbo I have utilizes the GT3076R. The only thing that is keeping me from committing to the FP turbine housing is the fact the my friend has a tubular t3 manifold already wrapped WITH wastegate off the manifold. Im pretty sure the wastegate is an ebay special, however I've had good luck with ebay, and a wastegate seems like a simple enough product.

With that being the case, I could get a t3 .63 a/r turbine housing a lot cheaper than I could get the FP ($400 vs $250). So T3 is probably the route im going to go, and as for the WG off the manifold, I will probably route it out the drivers side of the bumper. I've always wanted to do that.

Do you think a 4 bolt discharge 2.5" turbine outlet is going to be enough to max out the GT3076R? That is my goal with this turbo. REMEMBER, we are talking about a 2.3l with 272 cams and a JMF SMIM.

 

[andy4g63]

Even though 3" is better, 2.5" will be plenty for this turbo. Jake Montgomery was using 2.5 " O2 housing on both of his FP turbos 3065 and 3575 and he went well into the 10's well over 130MPH. And they are both bigger than 3076, that you have. Here is the link of his review on both turbos, read it, if you want is very nice and takes just a few minutes:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...d-performance-fp3065-fp3575-turbo-review.html

 

[daren_p]

The only way to get a 3" outlet Garrett turbine housing is to go with the actual GT housing. It positions the outlet flange an inch or two closer to the drivers side, so it does create a bit of an issue with PS & alternator clearance & a custom O2 would defently have to be made. Though it has been done. Tial may have a 3" outlet Vband but that will jack up your cost. Another place to look is ATP, they may have another varient, as they too, do offer different custom housings that Garret doesn't make.

Though like was said the 2.5" outlet should be fine. I think FP tested the 2.5" O2 housing vs a 3" up to something like 550whp, without any noticeable gains in power. So the 2.5" housing should be fine, just make sure to go with the 4 bolt.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

This thread is useless without ungodly amounts of up close pictures of your setup Daren =P

But Daren is right. For a mitsu bolt on housing, that FP turbine housing is the s**t. I unfortunantly, made the mistake of seeing this too late and got a standard PTE housing on mine. But after reading through this thread, im most likely going to swap to a FP housing (and go HTA too ;]) after I am done testing this current setup out.

Biggest reason for me NOT to go to the FP housing was all the additional stuff. V-band o2 housing, Tial 44mm, etc. All those add up and I already had my punishment and Tial combo I have now.

If I had the option of going T3 OR FP, It's really a tie for me. T3 makes more power sure, but the FP is compact. If I were going to go T3, I'd do the 4-bolt discharge. And then you can do a Punishment Racing T3 o2 housing that you can then keep your standard style downpipe. Makes it just a little more simple for both since both 2.5" housing for either a T3 or the FP can do this.