Spherical bearings 2g

[greengoblin]

If you decide to box the front crossmember up, post some pics when you get a chance. I'll be reinforcing it in a couple days also--it's pretty much the only thing in the front right now. Hard part is making it strong and having clearance for everything that's supposed to be there.

I was asking because when I was inspecting it, the lateral arm mounting point looks extremely cheesy from the factory. It's all rolled over sheet metal that's been tacked together. Doesn't look very robust at all.

I will be doing work on mine too. I'll post up pics. Please post pics of your in this thread too!

 

[greengoblin]

I read through your build thread on the other site. If more people knew about that I'm sure you'd have a huge following over here on Tuners. Incredible work I wish I had the equipment/knowledge to do what you are doing.

I am curious how your front end will hold up with the spherical bearings. Are you replacing the bushing in the rearward, curved arm as well? If so, rumor has it the 2gb arm is stronger than the 2ga. It might be worth switching out to this stronger arm since so much more stress will be placed on it.

Also, can you let us know in this thread when the other one is updated?

I'm going to see if it is possible to do the compression arms(rearward curved arms). I have a brand new set that I'm using which are the updated ones. Most the plans are drawn out. I just need to make sure that I have enough movement and there will be no binding with the way I currently have them designed.

I really want to keep the thread on topic so I will not be posting updates of my build here. This should be a place that anyone that is doing metal bearings can show how they have done it, tried too or are going too build theirs. Not so much look at what "I'm" doing but what and how are other building theirs. I hope you understand.

Kevin

 

[greengoblin]

Rear knuckles and upper arms loaded and ready to rock. Now I just need some time to play.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I decided to use a shouldered straight through design on theses. Then a spacer fits over it on the other side to spread the load out.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Rear upper arm with cone spacers

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[eclipsh]

I'm curious, did you find any solutions to the front UCA cracking the unibody?

 

[greengoblin]

I'm curious, did you find any solutions to the front UCA cracking the unibody?

I starting taking apart the strut towers 95TSIAWD$ sent to me to see just how the mounts for the upper control arms are built. I'm hoping this will give me some insight as to how or if I need to beef up this section. Since I'm running metal bushings it seems prudent to take a look. It's going to take me some time to get it apart. It has tons of spot welds on it. Here is one of the towers and the work I have started.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[greengoblin]

Here is the exploded view of our strut tower area. I was going to cut each spot weld out carefully but after finding rust I just took the uni-bit to it and made pretty short work of it. About an hour or so to pull it apart I think. I break my work time up into little chunks so I can't be exact.

Thing I noticed right off hand.

1 There was rust in both the location by the engine mount as well as near the hump for upper arm clearance. This rust it was not visiable from the outside. It was eating the tower out from the inside.

2 The upper control arm mounting points on this car did not have seam sealer around the tops in the engine bay like all three of my 95 cars did.

3 The inner cap of the where the springs rest is about two to three times thicker han the out cap and the rest of the tower area. I'll mic it for the hell of it so every one will know what the guages of the metal are.

4 The tubes that the upper arms mount through are only welded to the thin metals of the channel that they sit in, with min. spot welds holding them to boot. While they did add a second chunk of metal to help spread the load it looks pretty damn weak sauce to me.

I'm going to look at this some more and come up with my plan to make this area a bit better. Feel free to throw in your ideas.

I think a large washer welded around the top of the tube and to the tower area in the engine bay is a good start. As well as a plate like Charles reccomended.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[pagosa dsm]

Are you using part # QA1 wpb14tg for the lower control arms?
thank you for any help Rick

 

[greengoblin]

Are you using part # QA1 wpb14tg for the lower control arms?
thank you for any help Rick

Rick,

Yes, in my front lower lateral arms I am using wpb14tg found here:

Part Number WPB14TG, WPB-TG Spherical Bearing Series on QA1 Precision Products, Inc.

I'm going to load my compression arms as well, though I'm not sure which bearing I will use there yet or how I'm going to reinforce my front cross member as I'm still waiting for Robi spec to get it back to me.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

FYI, RTM Racing will be whipping up a batch of modified front lower lateral control arms in the next week or two. They will be brand new OEM control arms machined for PTFE-lined spherical bearings w/ clips and stainless steel standoffs (all included). A pair (two arms) will go for around $440 CDN + shipping and applicable taxes.

If you are interested in a set, give them a shout within the next couple weeks.

Phone: 289-296-9780
Email: [email protected]
Website: RTM Racing


Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with RTM Racing, just a long time customer.

 

[Flash]

I JUST bought new lateral arms for the dealer and put them on my car. You think RTM would take my arms and put the bearings in?

 

[greengoblin]

FYI, RTM Racing will be whipping up a batch of modified front lower lateral control arms in the next week or two. They will be brand new OEM control arms machined for PTFE-lined spherical bearings w/ clips and stainless steel standoffs (all included). A pair (two arms) will go for around $440 CDN + shipping and applicable taxes.

If you are interested in a set, give them a shout within the next couple weeks.

Phone: 289-296-9780
Email: [email protected]
Website: RTM Racing


Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with RTM Racing, just a long time customer.

Glad to see a shop doing this! It will make things much easier. I think it would be good if there kit included new bolts just from a saftey stand point.

I have not dedcided if I'm going to use the factory bolts are look for an upgrade. I'will be using new bolts at a minium though.

Kevin

 

[kerndog8]

I commend a company doing something such as this. However, like this thread has discussed over and over; If someone was to purchase these, as an "upgrade" they will soon realize that their handling just got worse, due in part to the fact that these control arms will overload and take over for the weaker rubber or urethane bushings its sister control arms contain.

I just do not see how just putting spherical bearings/bushings in ONE control arm would be beneficial.

I also have a hard time grasping how they will even work on the fork arm bushing, as that is a "life" suspension/steering component that needs to twist and flex.

 

[Dallas J]

I do know however, that if you replace the bushing with a spherical bearing at one end of those links, then you've halved (very approximately) the stiffness of the combined bushings of that arm - so things will flex more, not less.

Force in series acts on all components equally. If one of two bushings are replaced in a link (assuming 2 force member) the force in each joint will be the same. It will reduce overall deflection in that member. Im not seeing your logic.

If you're talking about 2 arms, now assuming 2 2-force members, then replacing the bushings in one will not drastically change the force going into the other member. And increasing the stiffness in one will increase the stiffness of the system as a whole. Their will be a change in how the ball joints pivot now because one arm is now stiffer, but the position change will be negligible with respects to the force equation.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

I JUST bought new lateral arms for the dealer and put them on my car. You think RTM would take my arms and put the bearings in?

I don't see why not. Give'm a shout.

I just do not see how just putting spherical bearings/bushings in ONE control arm would be beneficial.

This excerpt from Denis Grant's website might help you understand:

The Talon has this oddball double-lower-balljoint front suspension, where there isn't one lower A-Arm, but rather two of them. Each has its own balljoint, and the steering kuckle pivots around the instant centre of the two pivots points.

It's really very strange, but it allows the front suspension to be packaged tighter. If we didn't have it, we couldn't run the huge wheels that we do.

But one of its quirks is that the two lower A-Arms pivot back and forth whenever the wheels are steered.

In order to accomodate this motion, Mitsubishi embeds the pivot bolts in thick rubber bushings. The rubber flexes enough to allow the suspension its full range of motion, and also provides some degree of noise isolation.

But along with allowing the necessary suspension movement, the complience in the rubber allows the A-Arms to move all over the place. Even worse, the main support for the shock/spring assembly is through one of these rubber bushings, effectively placing an additional, undamped spring in line with the suspension spring.

This is all well and good for a street car, but with a race car, we want the spring and shock to be doing all the work, not the bushings. The rubber must be eliminated.

But it's not enough to just hog out a solid bushing and press that in there (or use a polyurethane bushing) as the suspension MUST pivot or the steering won't work. The solution is to press in a pair of spherical bearings. These are solid radially, but allow the arms to swing free.

In my case, I've been wanting to do this for a while, but it wasn't until I started wearing out my inboard LLCA poly bushings that I decided to take the plunge. My poly bushing only lasted two seasons due to the angular rotation, so replacing it with a spherical bearing only makes sense.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I also have a hard time grasping how they will even work on the fork arm bushing, as that is a "life" suspension/steering component that needs to twist and flex.

The spherical bearings used in these arms permit angular rotation. So they move not only rotationally, but also at an angle.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[greengoblin]

I commend a company doing something such as this. However, like this thread has discussed over and over; If someone was to purchase these, as an "upgrade" they will soon realize that their handling just got worse, due in part to the fact that these control arms will overload and take over for the weaker rubber or urethane bushings its sister control arms contain.

I just do not see how just putting spherical bearings/bushings in ONE control arm would be beneficial.

I also have a hard time grasping how they will even work on the fork arm bushing, as that is a "life" suspension/steering component that needs to twist and flex.

I was going to answer this question but Scott beat me to it and spelled it ut very well. It works and very well.


Kevin

 

[kerndog8]

So, I am going over your rough sketches and I started to draft them out on Auto Cadd 3d, and I noticed that on the Lower lateral Stand offs you forgot to leave a dimension for the shoulder.

You left us a dimension of the shoulder (.090) for the Upper Control Arm Stand Offs shoulder.

Any chance you are willing to share the rough copies and PNs for the Rear Knuckle and Rear UCA Stand offs and such?

Because I thought it was very of you to leave use the front two!

 

[greengoblin]

So, I am going over your rough sketches and I started to draft them out on Auto Cadd 3d, and I noticed that on the Lower lateral Stand offs you forgot to leave a dimension for the shoulder. !

You can use the specs of the bearing to find this out in th future. It's O minus B
For the WPB14TG
0.995 - 0.8750 = 0.12 Shoulder

Any chance you are willing to share the rough copies and PNs for the Rear Knuckle and Rear UCA Stand offs and such?

Because I thought it was very of you to leave use the front two!

I will but but I need to sit down and clean up the drawings. Actually I need to sit down and draw them as I don't have the rough ones any more. This takes time and I have very little at the moment. Mine disappeared between Houston and here. I'll do my best to have it up soon.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

Final call for the modified control arms mentioned in post #34. RTM should be starting these early this week. So far, I'm the only confirmed customer. If no-one else contacts him by next week, he will only produce THREE sets total and put TWO in his webstore. He then WON'T produce them again unless he has three more orders.

So, if you want a set and don't want to risk missing out then I suggest contacting him ASAP (see previous post for contact info).


Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with RTM Racing, just a long time customer who asked them to make these arms for us.

 

[turbo addict]

Final call for the modified control arms mentioned in post #34. RTM should be starting these early this week. So far, I'm the only confirmed customer. If no-one else contacts him by next week, he will only produce THREE sets total and put TWO in his webstore. He then WON'T produce them again unless he has three more orders.

So, if you want a set and don't want to risk missing out then I suggest contacting him ASAP (see previous post for contact info).


Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with RTM Racing, just a long time customer who asked them to make these arms for us.

I would love to get a set but I am in the process of selling a few things to get the money. I should know by the end of the week as I have a couple people looking and going back and forth on price with me.

 

[greengoblin]

Toe arm is almost complete. The hole of the tie rod adaptor still has to be reamed out to the correct size. I'm going to go ahead a post the build sheet on it. A few thing you should note.

1: This is not a DD. IF you do this then it's your own risk even it is just your race car. I'm just showing what I am doing. I'm in no ways saying do it or that it's safe, sound etc.

2: This car has not touch the ground so there may still be issue that I'm not aware of. So if you run off and build this you may find out there is a problem before me.

I'm working on the other arms and should have info on how I built them soonish.

I'd like to see what other are doing. Or am I the only person doing something like this. Heck even ideas would be nice. I'm all ears on compression arm ideas.

Kevin
PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL NEED Part Number PCYMR10-12T, Male Rod Ends in place of the Part Number PCYMR12T that is list on the plans

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

What I used and where it came from.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[snowborder714]

Any other drawings? Maybe ones for the subframe bushings or rear upper cones?

Also, if you happen to get any of the standoffs in your hands with a caliper, I'd appreciate if you could measure both flat sections on either side of the angle.

The last drawing you posted should be very easy since it's a vertical transition instead of the angled one like the SPC and lower control arm standoffs.

 

[greengoblin]

Any other drawings? Maybe ones for the subframe bushings or rear upper cones?

Also, if you happen to get any of the standoffs in your hands with a caliper, I'd appreciate if you could measure both flat sections on either side of the angle.

The last drawing you posted should be very easy since it's a vertical transition instead of the angled one like the SPC and lower control arm standoffs.

I'll get these to you. I have been very busy and have not touch my car in sometime. Lots of powder work.

I'm not going to post up the front cross member since Adam helped me and is making them for a very reasonable price. The rear I'll post up since I made them and paid for them all with my own money. However Adam is making them for a very good price as well.


Kevin

 

[greengoblin]

Rear X-member bushing I posted it in my x-member bushing thread too.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

1st! This is not a DD. IF you do this then it's your own risk even period. I'm just showing what I am doing. I'm in no ways saying do it or that it's safe, sound etc.



Trailing arms

Here what I used:

Swedge Tubes: Two 3/4"tubes at 7 inches long
Factory mounting clevis off trailing arm
2 Grade 8 all thread bolt 3/4-16 RHT
2 QA1 PCYML12T Rod ends
4 custom built standoffs

How I did it:

I cut the clevis off the trailing arm leaving a small bit of the tubing. I then used the tub as a guide to center a drill it and popped a hole in it. Then I cut the rest of the tubing off.

My friend and neighbor Jake then machined the head of the bolt down in a lathe so that it interfaced into the hole. He then TIG welded around the hex of the bolt and plug welded inside the cup where it interfaced with the clevis. You can see this in the photo.



Lateral arms:

What I used:

Swedge tubes: Two 3/4"tubes at 9"long
2 Grade 8 all thread bolts 3/4-16 RHT
Factory mounting clevis off a 3g eclipse lateral arm ( box tube will work)
2 QA1 PCYML12T Rod ends
4 custom built standoffs

How I did it:

See above

What you should know:

I have not hooked up a sway bar yet. You can certainly do so I feel by using the mounts off the 3g arm or by building your own. I'm looking at a custom rear bar so I'm not going to be using the factory position but instead the shock mount.

Also you can adjust camber here a bit. However you will need to check for binding of the Axles if you do so. ETC. Also it would be best to do before you weld on your sway mounts. Currently I have my arm at stock length. I'll post back in when I get to seeing what "if" any camber adjustment I can make here.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[twicks69]

Absolutely AWESOME work!

Thank you again for the information, as it will make my life substantially easier when I do this in the upcoming weeks!

 

[96_killer]

Amazing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!