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ECMlink Slow Spool & Knock Retard

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XIT

Proven Member
63
9
Jul 20, 2015
Wisconsin
Hey guys, I'll try to keep this short. I'm just coming over to ECMLink from ECUFlash and I based my basemap off of the tables I built in ECUFlash. I wanted to post a couple logs and see what the gurus are thinking about it. I feel like the timing is relatively conservative. I had zero knock counts on the blackbox but I'm seeing that ECMLink is pulling timing due to knock. My boost ramp also seems a little slower than I'd expect from the setup. Attached are two logs and two tunes. One of each for the initial basemap and an updated tune after pulling some timing. I know my IDC is high and I feel like my IAT's are high as well, but I'm not sure. The wideband log is not accurate but on the gauge the afr hovers around 10.7 in boost. Cruising around, part throttle, and general street manners are phenomenal. The afr is exactly what I'd expect at all times. Mods are as follows:

Crower 272 cams
Built 2.0 ~ 9:1 comp
Twin scroll t3 manifold
Divided .75ar housing
PTE BB 6062
FP 4" intake tube
3.5" dp + exhaust
stock 2g IM
Denso 660's
VRSF FMIC kit
BR7ES gapped at .022
91 Pump gas 0 ethanol

I'll be switching to ID1300's and E85 soon but I just want to get the tune dialed in as best I can now before I start changing parts. Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • pulledtiming5.22.23.eda
    15.5 KB · Views: 15
  • basefromblackbox.eda
    15.5 KB · Views: 15
  • basemap1-2gear5.21.23.elg
    262.7 KB · Views: 31
  • pulledtiming1-2gear5.22.23.elg
    163.7 KB · Views: 17
How soon are you switching injectors and going to e85? You’ll have a completely different tune by then so if it’s only a week or so away just wait
It’ll be a few weeks cause I have to send the injectors out for service before using them again. The car drives great as it is so I’m not super worried I just wanted another set of eyes and some feedback on it.
 
After looking at the logs, I see the knock after 4K, plenty of boost on tap, and your AFR's are not well controlled.

That being said, 91 oct with 9:1 CR is likely to knock all the time at the boost level you are trying to run. You need less boost, less compression, or more octane.

Justin
 
After looking at the logs, I see the knock after 4K, plenty of boost on tap, and your AFR's are not well controlled.

That being said, 91 oct with 9:1 CR is likely to knock all the time at the boost level you are trying to run. You need less boost, less compression, or more octane.

Justin
What would indicate the afr not being well controlled?

From what I've seen, lots of guys are running 30+psi with hx35's on pump gas with more timing than I have in it and no meth injection. I understand my compression ratio is on the higher end but I'd still expect more capacity for boost/timing than 25psi at 8*. If that's all I can get with my setup so be it. I'll be changing parts soon I was mostly curious if this is a reasonable tune or if it shouldn't be knocking. Any comment on the spool characteristics?
 
I have a 10:1 motor and on gasoline I can only run 5*-6* of timing unless I switch over to E
On my 9:1 motor I can squeeze 2 more degrees and thats it unless I run E.
 
What would indicate the afr not being well controlled?

From what I've seen, lots of guys are running 30+psi with hx35's on pump gas with more timing than I have in it and no meth injection. I understand my compression ratio is on the higher end but I'd still expect more capacity for boost/timing than 25psi at 8*. If that's all I can get with my setup so be it. I'll be changing parts soon I was mostly curious if this is a reasonable tune or if it shouldn't be knocking. Any comment on the spool characteristics?
The AFR you are targeting in your tables is seen plotting AFRatioEst, and the AFR you actually achieved is AEMWB. The difference between these is an issue with your tune. If you plot WBFactor, it will show you the difference between the two. With a perfectly tuned setup, WBFactor would be 0% - but nobody ever actually makes it to 0% WBFactor everywhere - but this should be your goal during WOT. I find the most difficult part to tune is the "spooling" parts of the curve.

If this is your first time with ECMLink - you could learn a lot by turning down the boost to 18psi, and working on your AFRatioEst and AEMWB alignment.

Justin
 
Agreed, the spooling part is the most difficult as the inputs (RPM and pressure) are changing so fast.

How I've done it in the past is about 4-5 pulls, starting off from wastegate pressure and increasing the boost pressure 3-5psi or so with each run until you reach your target. Obviously with a heavy springed wastegate, this would make your starting pressure rather high.. so, for the tuning part, swap in the lighter set. Once you have all the data, you combine and average the cells from all the runs. LibreOffice Calc is a free alternative to Excel.

Just keep an eye on that wideband as lower boost levels will keep you in the same cells for longer and if the VE is too far off, you'll be lean (or rich) for a longer period of time. As soon as you see yourself too lean, back off, adjust those cells, and do it again.

Otherwise, doing pulls starting from the same RPM and reaching the same PSI gives you good vertical data but leaves you devoid of any horizontal.. on the street, it's a different game than during a controlled pull.

It really makes you appreciate more than 10psi, that's for sure.
 
I am also TS T3 with an HX35, similar peak boost, on a 8.5:1 CR motor with the same Crower cams.

Timing on pump 93 maxes out at 5* at 7500 RPM. That is all the car would take on gasoline. E really makes a world of difference at these boost/airflow levels.

Depending on boost level, I am at 3-4* in the mid range where you are seeing the knock. This doesn't seem that abnormal to me for this type of turbo setup.
 
The AFR you are targeting in your tables is seen plotting AFRatioEst, and the AFR you actually achieved is AEMWB. The difference between these is an issue with your tune. If you plot WBFactor, it will show you the difference between the two. With a perfectly tuned setup, WBFactor would be 0% - but nobody ever actually makes it to 0% WBFactor everywhere - but this should be your goal during WOT. I find the most difficult part to tune is the "spooling" parts of the curve.

If this is your first time with ECMLink - you could learn a lot by turning down the boost to 18psi, and working on your AFRatioEst and AEMWB alignment.

Justin
I appreciate the feedback. The wideband is not logging accurately and the actual afr on the gauge is very close to what is commanded under wot
 
I am also TS T3 with an HX35, similar peak boost, on a 8.5:1 CR motor with the same Crower cams.

Timing on pump 93 maxes out at 5* at 7500 RPM. That is all the car would take on gasoline. E really makes a world of difference at these boost/airflow levels.

Depending on boost level, I am at 3-4* in the mid range where you are seeing the knock. This doesn't seem that abnormal to me for this type of turbo setup.
I appreciate it. It seems like I’m not too far off then. Definitely going to need some E before I turn it up any more haha. It’s definitely a game changer
 
I appreciate the feedback. The wideband is not logging accurately and the actual afr on the gauge is very close to what is commanded under wot
Not logging accurately? Fix that. You can manually adjust ECMLink sensor setup.

You will be looking at logs to tune, the gauge is not even needed. I only use the gauge for rough setup.
 
Not logging accurately? Fix that. You can manually adjust ECMLink sensor setup.

You will be looking at logs to tune, the gauge is not even needed. I only use the gauge for rough setup.
I understand and touched on that in the original post. I’ll be fixing it shortly. It’s not my first rodeo tuning. Fuel is pretty much dialed in I’m just working on timing. I’m just used to running more timing in other engines with similar boost.
 
I understand and touched on that in the original post. I’ll be fixing it shortly. It’s not my first rodeo tuning. Fuel is pretty much dialed in I’m just working on timing. I’m just used to running more timing in other engines with similar boost.
Got it. What I’ve seen with a DSM, 4G63t running ECMLink (stock ecu) the knock aspect is finicky.

Knock can show even when everything looks dialed in. Abrupt transitions in the timing or afr can introduce knock. Backing off with boost or timing and then working back to knock is generally done to find the pump gas limit. When you go full e85, knock wont be as useful as a tuning tool.

Stock 1G timing tables are considered aggressive for a 1G even on 7.8:1 CR

Stock 2G timing tables are generally a good starting point, and those were based on 8.5:1 CR

I would leave the timing as stock as possible to ensure your bottom end response is snappy, and dial in the AFR until you have good alignment between the tables and WB. Without good AFR alignment, there is little point to adjusting timing.
 
Got it. What I’ve seen with a DSM, 4G63t running ECMLink (stock ecu) the knock aspect is finicky.

Knock can show even when everything looks dialed in. Abrupt transitions in the timing or afr can introduce knock. Backing off with boost or timing and then working back to knock is generally done to find the pump gas limit. When you go full e85, knock wont be as useful as a tuning tool.

Stock 1G timing tables are considered aggressive for a 1G even on 7.8:1 CR

Stock 2G timing tables are generally a good starting point, and those were based on 8.5:1 CR

I would leave the timing as stock as possible to ensure your bottom end response is snappy, and dial in the AFR until you have good alignment between the tables and WB. Without good AFR alignment, there is little point to adjusting timing.
Thanks for the advice! I tried keeping most of the map based on the stock 2g map and the drivability ended up really good. Coming from tuning boosted mustangs, turbo ls stuff, and hondas, it’s definitely a different animal. I’ll get the wideband sorted this weekend and get the timing to a happy point until I switch to e85
 
I appreciate it. It seems like I’m not too far off then. Definitely going to need some E before I turn it up any more haha. It’s definitely a game changer
I am at a conservative 15* peak on E. Really removes that knock wall you will see on pump 93.
 
Thanks for the advice! I tried keeping most of the map based on the stock 2g map and the drivability ended up really good. Coming from tuning boosted mustangs, turbo ls stuff, and hondas, it’s definitely a different animal. I’ll get the wideband sorted this weekend and get the timing to a happy point until I switch to e85
Based on the ecu config in the logs, it looks like you are running MAF? And you have no MAF adjustments, its a flat line (stock).

Is this expected? or were you trying to run in speed density mode?
 
Based on the ecu config in the logs, it looks like you are running MAF? And you have no MAF adjustments, its a flat line (stock).

Is this expected? or were you trying to run in speed density mode?
Yes I am running maf. I haven’t played with the adjustments since it seems to be running fine. Speed density will be coming in the future though.
 
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