The Top DSM Community on the Web

For 1990-1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, and Galant VR-4 Owners. Log in to remove most ads.

Please Support STM Tuned
Please Support Fuel Injector Clinic

2G Ring gap wear on wisecos

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
So I tore down my built engine to figure out why it was using so much oil.

Setup is a 6 bolt with eagle/wiseco 8.3:1 85.5mm .Motor used bout a quart every 3k miles when fresh built on Mobil 1 50 weight oil. No smoking at idle or under boost.

Fast forward 40k miles later its using a quart every 500 miles, time to take it apart.

Specs when I built it I had set ptw to 3.5, top ring 17, bottom ring 19 thousands and oil ring left ungapped. I measured these myself at time of build.

Compression after breaking it in was 155 on each cylinder. Compression before tear down was 150 on each cylinder.

Ptw is still 3.5 , not a single vertical line in the bores hone lines still visible but bores have thick coating of fresh oil. Top ring is now 28, bottom 32(one was 60) and oil rings have 30 thousands. So to me clearly the rings are shot but is this common of wiseco rings?

The one variable I don't know is what grit my machinist used to hone the cylinders.
 

donniekak

DSM Wiseman
5,622
969
Mar 23, 2008
Surprise, Arizona
Measure the difference in inner diameter vs outer diameter "depth" of one of your rings vs new. If they are missing a lot of material it's possible the bores were honed incorrectly.

I'd also run a bore gauge down the cylinders and make sure they're cylindrical.
 

zedicus

Proven Member
469
71
Aug 4, 2011
Garden city, Kansas
sounds like the wrong grit on final hone was used. if the PTW is still good and there are no vertical lines just replace the rings and have at it. and i am assuming your PTW is 0.0035 not actually 3.5 .
 

SasaniFab

Proven Member
2,440
790
Dec 1, 2013
Mexico, Connecticut
So I tore down my built engine to figure out why it was using so much oil.

Setup is a 6 bolt with eagle/wiseco 8.3:1 85.5mm .Motor used bout a quart every 3k miles when fresh built on Mobil 1 50 weight oil. No smoking at idle or under boost.

Fast forward 40k miles later its using a quart every 500 miles, time to take it apart.

Specs when I built it I had set ptw to 3.5, top ring 17, bottom ring 19 thousands and oil ring left ungapped. I measured these myself at time of build.

Compression after breaking it in was 155 on each cylinder. Compression before tear down was 150 on each cylinder.

Ptw is still 3.5 , not a single vertical line in the bores hone lines still visible but bores have thick coating of fresh oil. Top ring is now 28, bottom 32(one was 60) and oil rings have 30 thousands. So to me clearly the rings are shot but is this common of wiseco rings?

The one variable I don't know is what grit my machinist used to hone the cylinders.
How much boost were you running? This seems rather tight for a forged motor? .0035 ptw with .017 ring gap? I have always been under the impression that you want at least .0045 in the .002+ range for ring gap. I know clearances are relative to material being used and how much boost pressure you plan on running.
 

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
my new rings just got here, looks like used ring depth was 0.122 top,0.134 bottom,0.095 oil ring. new wiseco rings are 0.125 top, 0.140 bottom, 0.097 oil.

so difference is like what 3 thousands top, 6 thousands bottom, and 2 thousands oil. would that really cause it gap to open up that much?

i was running 22-25 psi on a stock mitsu td05 20g, i wanted to set a bit tighter since it was going to be street driven alot.
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,720
1,466
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
Not a fan of Wiseco 4 stroke rings at ALL, and this is coming from a person that has installed tons and tons of Wiseco stuff as a tech at a dealership on my own recomendation to the customer, my recomendation was based on my great experience with the two stroke parts that Wiseco makes, I actually purchased Wiseco parts for my own build at one time and later just couldnt bring myself to install the stuff and ended up selling it off and having custom parts made instead.

As I said I used to be a big fanboy, as I started seeing stuff with Wiseco parts exibiting piston slap and oil burning early into the part life I changed my opinion, and the bigger eye opener was seeing the piston pin come in a pouch that said "made in China" or Korea or whatever on the actual cheap plastic package right in the high dollar piston kit! Its truley a shame that companies would outsource parts from the cheapest places possible with no regard for anything but price point when your selling a performance product, but I guess thats the game, just not for me. With all this being said, who KNOWS where the rings come from? possibly made from China recycled Bud Light cans or something, they are very thin and bend easily and when I have put them into a brand new cylinder (and I'm talking factory new) I have seen light past them which is never a good thing for a tech thats a perfectionist, major turn off for me, wont use them.
 

kmetiuk

Proven Member
521
125
Mar 10, 2010
Edmonton, AB_Canada
Just got my Manley's a few days ago (85.5mm and 8.5:1)and I've been thinking about/looking into this. Lots of opinions about PTW and ring gaping.

From the spec sheet that came with them:

PTW: Mitsu coated skirt - 0.0035 (uncoated 0.0040)
Med Boost (15-30psi): Top - 0.007 | 2nd 0.007 | Oil - 0.015
High Boost (+30psi): Top - 0.008 | 2nd 0.008 | Oil - 0.015

Of interest is the note on ring seating...it says DO NOT (in caps like that) run synthetic for the first 2-3K miles. Also Manley recommends not idling and suggest getting the motor under load as soon as possible.

Not sure what I'm gonna/should run but just thought I'd share Manley's info.
 

motomattx

Proven Member
3,720
1,466
Dec 9, 2010
wampum, Pennsylvania
Just got my Manley's a few days ago (85.5mm and 8.5:1)and I've been thinking about/looking into this. Lots of opinions about PTW and ring gaping.

From the spec sheet that came with them:

PTW: Mitsu coated skirt - 0.0035 (uncoated 0.0040)
Med Boost (15-30psi): Top - 0.007 | 2nd 0.007 | Oil - 0.015
High Boost (+30psi): Top - 0.008 | 2nd 0.008 | Oil - 0.015

Of interest is the note on ring seating...it says DO NOT (in caps like that) run synthetic for the first 2-3K miles. Also Manley recommends not idling and suggest getting the motor under load as soon as possible.

Not sure what I'm gonna/should run but just thought I'd share Manley's info.


I wouldnt recommend synthetic for the first 10k myself just to be safe, I wont run it anyway due to seal leakage when using it in the past, I only run Valvoline 20w-50 VR1.
 

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
The ring boxes say made in japan on them. Thats interesting the
Just got my Manley's a few days ago (85.5mm and 8.5:1)and I've been thinking about/looking into this. Lots of opinions about PTW and ring gaping.

From the spec sheet that came with them:

PTW: Mitsu coated skirt - 0.0035 (uncoated 0.0040)
Med Boost (15-30psi): Top - 0.007 | 2nd 0.007 | Oil - 0.015
High Boost (+30psi): Top - 0.008 | 2nd 0.008 | Oil - 0.015

Of interest is the note on ring seating...it says DO NOT (in caps like that) run synthetic for the first 2-3K miles. Also Manley recommends not idling and suggest getting the motor under load as soon as possible.

Not sure what I'm gonna/should run but just thought I'd share Manley's info.

waaa thats crazy, if thats correct its tighter than stock...
 

SasaniFab

Proven Member
2,440
790
Dec 1, 2013
Mexico, Connecticut
So I tore down my built engine to figure out why it was using so much oil.

Setup is a 6 bolt with eagle/wiseco 8.3:1 85.5mm .Motor used bout a quart every 3k miles when fresh built on Mobil 1 50 weight oil. No smoking at idle or under boost.

Fast forward 40k miles later its using a quart every 500 miles, time to take it apart.

Specs when I built it I had set ptw to 3.5, top ring 17, bottom ring 19 thousands and oil ring left ungapped. I measured these myself at time of build.

Compression after breaking it in was 155 on each cylinder. Compression before tear down was 150 on each cylinder.

Ptw is still 3.5 , not a single vertical line in the bores hone lines still visible but bores have thick coating of fresh oil. Top ring is now 28, bottom 32(one was 60) and oil rings have 30 thousands. So to me clearly the rings are shot but is this common of wiseco rings?

The one variable I don't know is what grit my machinist used to hone the cylinders.
Did you have the engine built or did you build the engine yourself?
 

SasaniFab

Proven Member
2,440
790
Dec 1, 2013
Mexico, Connecticut
The two successful engines I built I ran .0045 ptw clearance. My ring gaps were .0022 top, .0024 second. The pistons were wiseco hds....My startup procedure was.....After assembling the entire engine I filled it with cheap non sythetic 20w50 oil. I spun the oil pump drive gear with a drill and after I was finished threw the timing belt on and finished assembly. The first start I got the car to operating temperature, checked for leaks etc.....The motor didnt idle very long. After shutting off the motor, I drained the oil and checked the inside of the filter. I refilled the motor with fresh oil and a new filter, started the car and took it out immediately. I didnt beat the crap out of it but I would rev it out normally but I used engine braking to slow the car. After about 20 miles I drained the oil to check the filter and did the same thing for another 20 miles. This time after changing the oil and filter I started to boost the engine to redline to really load the rings......I did this for probably 100 miles of 20psi to redline pulls in 2nd-3rd-4th, basically ripping around nothing crazy. This was when I went to normal oil change intervals and switched to vp racing 20w50. I dont know if this is the best way to do it but it worked for me twice. My filters have been spotless.
 

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
Did you have the engine built or did you build the engine yourself?


I had the motor assembled by the same person that did the machine work, then I dissasembled everything to check the work and coat the bearings piston skirts and rods.

Interestingly enough, what I needed to change after getting the motor back from him was the ring gaps. He gapped the rings to 0.01 on the top and 0.012 on bottom at a 60 degree angle where the gaps come together so I opened the gap to 0.017 and 0.019 and made them parallel where they come together.
 

kmetiuk

Proven Member
521
125
Mar 10, 2010
Edmonton, AB_Canada
The ring boxes say made in japan on them. Thats interesting the


waaa thats crazy, if thats correct its tighter than stock...


Ya that's what I initially thought too.

I'm not sure what to run for gap now. I'm lightly leaning toward just following the spec sheet that Manley gives.....I mean you'd think they would get it right them making the pistons and rings and all.

I dunno tho.....
 

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
Ya that's what I initially thought too.

I'm not sure what to run for gap now. I'm lightly leaning toward just following the spec sheet that Manley gives.....I mean you'd think they would get it right them making the pistons and rings and all.

I dunno tho.....
You are supposed to multiply thous numbers by the bore diameter in inches, comes out in the 0.02" range.
 

SasaniFab

Proven Member
2,440
790
Dec 1, 2013
Mexico, Connecticut
I had the motor assembled by the same person that did the machine work, then I dissasembled everything to check the work and coat the bearings piston skirts and rods.

Interestingly enough, what I needed to change after getting the motor back from him was the ring gaps. He gapped the rings to 0.01 on the top and 0.012 on bottom at a 60 degree angle where the gaps come together so I opened the gap to 0.017 and 0.019 and made them parallel where they come together.
these number seem very tight to me...with a ptw clearance of .0035 and a very tight ring gap with forged pistons? As ive said both my motors were .0045 ptw, verified by me with a dial bore gauge. The rings were gapped .022, .024... the engine made 640whp on a mustang dyno. I would open up those ring gaps to leave room for expansion. I cant imagine ring gaps changing unless A: the measurements were done incorrectly or B: the rings butted and somehow got damaged?
 

m_0ney_pit

15+ Year Contributor
780
52
Jan 12, 2007
Easton, Pennsylvania
Wow that's a lot of power. Doubt I'll ever have the budget to get there.

I talked to my machinist and we used 280 grit final hone when the motor was built so grit should be out for causing the ring wear.

This may just be normal for wiseco rings after all they are quite a bit thinner than stock rings which means they should wear faster, and I get the reason for it its to make more power with less friction.
 

kmetiuk

Proven Member
521
125
Mar 10, 2010
Edmonton, AB_Canada
You are supposed to multiply thous numbers by the bore diameter in inches, comes out in the 0.02" range.

Oh ya.....you're totally right. Totally glazed over the "bore x 0.008" part. My bad.

So for the top Manley ring (85.5mm for me) it would be 3.3661 x 0.008 or 0.0269....which we'll call 0.027". That sounds better IMO.

Recalc'ing the Manleys it would be:
Top & 2nd : 0.027"
Oil: 0.050"


On the grit....Manley sheet states different grits for different Top ring materials. Moly-face or cast iron is 280-320, Chrome Face is 220-280. Not sure if that helps but just thought I'd add more info.
 
Support Vendors who Support the DSM Community
Boosted Fabrication ECM Tuning ExtremePSI Fuel Injector Clinic Jacks Transmissions JNZ Tuning Kiggly Racing Morrison Fabrications MyMitsubishiStore.com RixRacing RockAuto RTM Racing STM Tuned VR Speed Factory

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Latest Classifieds

Top