Replacing head,have some questions...

[TSiAWD91]

Im replacing my head because of a recent timing belt failure,and i just wanted to know if theres any other special tools im going to need besides that tool for the timing belt.And is there anything special that needs to be done to a 90 head to go on a 91 motor?I already know about the different CAS.And anyone have any words of advice before I start this arduous task?Im also replacing my cracked ass exhaust manifold with a EVO unit.Does this require the same grinding as the 2G variant?Thanks for any help you guys can provide.This will definetely prove to be a whole new learning experience for me!

 

[direw0lf]

There is a crank tool that will make your life easier. It keeps your crank from turning so you can get the nut off. I used air to get it off but the tool was still nice for keeping the crank from turning when I was putting the belt on.

Good luck, its a pain in the butt. Oh. make sure that you rotate the exhaust cam clockwise one tooth forward when you are putting the belt on. Its a little bit of a pain to get the marks to all line up. Once you release the tensionior it will always be a tooth off if you dont go clockwise one tooth off on the exhaust cam. Even with turning the cam one tooth, we still had a time getting the engine timed right until we locked the crank down to keep it from moving. We put that belt on like 30 times before the engine was timed right. I'm sure it will be easier to do the job next time but it's definitely a learning experience for a first timer.. Prepare to cuss a lot.

I haven't installed the EVO manifold personally but was reading on it since I am thinking about that same manifold myself. Everything I've read says it needs to be grinded on just like the 2G manifold.

 

[TSiAWD91]

is this tool a DSM only tool.or is it something that i could possibly rent or even rig one up?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by TSiAWD91
is this tool a DSM only tool.or is it something that i could possibly rent or even rig one up?

The easy way is to use a long breaker bar and hit the starter. Great care must be observed for it can do a lot of damage or hurt someone.

Remove spark plugs, loosen cam tower bolts and remove cam followers. Place breaker bar end so it is 6" or more from ground in the 4:00 oclock position, and hit the starter for a second. If your breaker bar is too short use a stout cheater pipe to get some extra length. It will break loose with a resounding bang if it's been on there for several years.

Do not allow anyone to be near when you do this for on some cars the breaker bar can fly off or break. If working on dirt floor you may need to put a piece of wood for the impact will be softened in the dirt.

The timing belt eccentric cam tensioner tool will be hard to find, you might be able to substitute some 90 degree circlip pliers or needle nose with less than 1/8" tips. You will understand better when you get in there but don't hesitate to ask questions.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[kak]

or you can just put the belt on not worrying about time, have someone above you take a crescent wrench (or two) and hold the cam(s) in place while you go clockwise with the 1/2" drive on the bolt. if your friend doesn't let go, it'll just slide right off.

you'll need that tool to take the head off.

just wondering, how much did you pay for your head?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by kak
or you can just put the belt on not worrying about time, have someone above you take a crescent wrench (or two) and hold the cam(s) in place while you go clockwise with the 1/2" drive on the bolt. if your friend doesn't let go, it'll just slide right off.
...

I think this is awfully risky for you are depending on the belt not being stretched and all the other parts not being being worn. It may have been done successfully before on another engine but if the breakaway torque on the bolt exceeds 250 lbs because of molecular bond then chances are it's going to break the belt or jump time. Those cam pulleys just aren't that beefy especially since most of the load will be taken on the tensioner and exhaust side. On top of that you are asking the cams to wind up half their length as part of the resistance and I've watched them twist enough to know they could suffer serious damage or break.

The acceptable alternatives are to use a chain wrench with a towel to protect the pulley from scaring or to pull the starter and lock the flywheel ring gear if an air impact gun isn't available.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[steve]

Originally posted by TSiAWD91
Im also replacing my cracked ass exhaust manifold with a EVO unit.Does this require the same grinding as the 2G variant?

The EVO Exhaust manifold requires grinding the lower driver side corner just like the 2G to clear the motor mount.

If you have access to a bench grinder and a drill you can make the crank holder. If you have access to a 8mmx1.25 die you can make the tensioner tool.
A timing belt eccentric idler tool can be as simple as a short piece of brass strip and two 4-40 bolts.

Steve

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
... If you have access to a 8mmx1.25 die you can make the tensioner tool.
A timing belt eccentric idler tool can be as simple as a short piece of brass strip and two 4-40 bolts.
Steve

Hi Steve: It's difficult to know people's skill levels here, but a bit better tool can be fabricated almost as easily as what you have described.

Rather than a straight piece of flat bar stock make it from two pieces like a shaped something like a "Y" except the long leg will be straight more like a lower case "y" with a pivot bolt at the joint and one leg should be a bit longer than the other. IF you can drill the holes accurately to the correct size you can press roll pins (. 124") or a sanded down 1/8" drill bit shank in the drilled holes for the tool. By having one leg longer it's possible to then flop the tool over to gain a better pull advantage and with the "Y" shape there is plenty of room for a socket or wrench to lock it in place. The pivot bolt should be kept pretty snug so it doesn't wiggle or the pins may creep out of the tensioner holes. Should cost under $5 for all the materials, to make the .124" pins chuck the drill bit shank in a 1/4" drill and sand it down. Can't remember the number size drill to get the interference fit but use a brass or lead hammer / punch to drive in place if a bench vice isn't available with a little heat. The nice thing about this is it can be used for other application like bicycle or motorcycle jamb nuts Necessity _IS_ the mother of invention.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[TSiAWD91]

well i was gonna respond and say i had no idea what the hell you guys were talking about,but i looked up the timing belt vfaq and read that the tool is needed for the b-belt replacement.i think ill go get some metal bar and make the tool,so i can have it for future use if need be.thanks for your help guys.anything else???

 

[steve]

Originally posted by TSiAWD91
i looked up the timing belt vfaq and read that the tool is needed for the b-belt replacement.

It's used to tension the Timing Belt idler pulley in step 32 instead of buying MD998767. Since the shop special tool doesn't really fit between the frame and the pulley very well many people use needle nose pliers or their fingers. I couldn't get a solid grip on it so I made bar to apply some torque. I used what I had handy like GTM said "Necessity is the mother of invention".

I hope your taking the time to look everything else on the front side of the engine over for wear and tear. You'll see in the VFAQ that you need to inspect the tensioner arm and it's pivot point for wear. It's normal for the tensioner to wear a divot on the arm where the touch. You weld and grind it flat but if the pivot wears you have to replace the mount. Check your seals, replace the water pump if you haven't yet.

Steve

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by TSiAWD91
well i was gonna respond and say i had no idea what the hell you guys were talking about,but i looked up the timing belt vfaq and read that the tool is needed for the b-belt replacement.i think ill go get some metal bar and make the tool,so i can have it for future use if need be.thanks for your help guys.anything else???

Yup, as mentioned lot of different skill levels here, what's neet is bringing minds together to solve problems and provoke more knowledge by reading the Vfaq. Because my son's car had jumped time so badly to bend all the intake valves it was not critical to use the belt tensioning screw. I just slipped the belt off the cams a little at a time for each one and let it fall since the cover was going to come off. Reusing the belt proved to be a bit of a pain since it had stretch a some and it took 3 passes to get it right after pulling the engine through by hand several times. ALWAYS, read my lips, _always_ pull a dohc engine through by hand before ever thinking about the starter. If you bump a valve you will know it so it will give you a chance to back up a few degrees and sort out what's wrong.

Because of the damage caused by no oil pressure which caused the followers to fall off the valves and I did what some say not to do. When the head was finished, turbo in place I took a 1/4" drill and attached a socket to the oil pump sprocket and spun it up, this filled all the galeries and squirted oil onto the windshield and 5 feet in front of the car... yup the oil pump works.

Now about that $50 for professional advice I'll take it in a virtual glass of wine of my choice. Don't hesitate to ask for help, there are plenty of people here that have been in your shoes who may have other shortcuts or solutions which can be effectively used. I've been promising Ludchris an article on making a valve spring compressor for under $5 that will work on DSMs so better get that done.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
... replace the water pump if you haven't yet.
Steve

Yup, if you don't take Steve's advice on this item you are asking for problems unless you have proof positive it was changed in the last 6 months. I took a shorcut (professional license) and it jumped up and bit me. After solving several other leaks from neglect and rust on the car including an inclusion in the stainless steel w/p inlet pipe which required removing soldering the inclusion and adding a safety tubless tire patch with hose clamp all was well.

Ha, my son has a friend that works for a dealer and the offer of a free cooling system flush was too much for the water pump which now leaks. Argh, just can't win, local Auto Zone had one in stock for $39.99 and guarantee. Now it all has to come back off just to change the w/p which spoiled a pretty decent job including the guides for under $300. Grrrr.

If you need cost effective parts contact me off list and I can give you our source.

Cheers,

 

[steve]

Be careful with aftermarket water pumps. I heard all kinds of horror stories over the years from people who didn't get a OEM one. The difference in price isn't worth the labor if you have to change it sooner than 120k that the OEM's last.

Conicelli Mitsubishi tends to offer the best discount on OEM parts (25%). They still show 1G water pumps for $78.11

Steve

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
Be careful with aftermarket water pumps. I heard all kinds of horror stories over the years from people who didn't get a OEM one. The difference in price isn't worth the labor if you have to change it sooner than 120k that the OEM's last.
Conicelli Mitsubishi tends to offer the best discount on OEM parts (25%). They still show 1G water pumps for $78.11 Steve

Is the $78.11 with the 25% off? Though I'd seen a factory quote of of $130+???

I'm fortunate enough to have a major pump builder here in Los Angeles that I've done business with for 40 years. They have fixed me up with Lancia Aurelia impellers and seals back when I had a stable of these cars...(5). There is nothing to these modern pumps and if parts are available, a good shop vice, some deep well sockets, and a butane torch you can rebuild them in a 1/2 hour. What fails is the ceramic slip washer / seal will get tiny hair line cracks which a good aluminum powder leak stop will fill and stop the leak. Now if the spring is weak which holds the washer in place because of design it won't leak under pressure but it will suck air at high rpm which was the clue for always having to add a cup of water every morning. The overflow bottle level would change but the 13 lb cap should have kept it from pumping water were it not for the small charge of air which would get hot and push the water out because of the weak spring and the flush job.

I've heard the horror stories about rebuilders but only can remember one time where I had installed a quad barrel carb which I had to take back twice for the same car (my own 53 Merc coupe). Since I know the water pump builder and have had good luck I'm probably going with the local pump at the Zone. Don't expect my son to have his dad doing this in a couple of years for I expect he'll be playing first chair flute in some major orchestra can afford to pay someone to get their hands dirty. hehehe

My Autocycle project has been neglected and I'm feeling it's not going to be ready by summer.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[steve]

Originally posted by GTM
Is the $78.11 with the 25% off? Though I'd seen a factory quote of of $130+???

That is their internet special price from the web page. They claim a list of $104.14 for the pump. I can't remember is that included the gasket and o-ring for the water pipe or not. I could look at what I ordered.

There's no question a QUALITY rebuilder couldn't produce a pump as good or better than OEM but sadly price pressure from the big chains usually means make it good enough that they don't get too many returns. Second is the issue
of whether the core was intended for your engine. The distributers tend to
lump parts of varing ages and specs. In you case you may be ok but like I said the issue of the labor involved in replacing a defective pump swamps the part cost so I'll stick to brand new in this application. On other engines where I can swap it in a short time I'm less picky.

As you point out, the skill level or people here varies a lot so I tend to be very conservative in my recommendations. I can't tell if someone has the ability inspect a part and decide if it's up to snuff.

I haven't seen or worked on a Lancia in years, the last being a few Beta's when I used to own a Fiat 124 sedan and 850 spyder.

Steve

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by steve
... "I can't remember is that included the gasket and o-ring for the water pipe or not. I could look at what I ordered."

Was talking with another member a while back about the pump and radiator after I isolated the piece of dirt in the "S" curve. In any case what kind of 90 day engineer dreampt up that system, here the waterpump straight outlet comes not 9" from the bottom of the left side of the radiator... wham bam thank you mamm! Oh no that would be too simple lets make it turn 90 degrees (and not radius the inside of the casting that's a whopping 25% loss) run it behind the exhaust, behind the turbo an PRE heat the cooled water. All I can figure is they had a contract for 2 million radiators with the fitting on the bottom right so we will make a pipe because it will be cheaper than negotiating a new radiator contract. If I were going to be an enthuiast I'd throw that pipe away and have a rad shop make a new bottom tank with a L/S lower fitting and a R/S upper to meet the thermostat. Nothing could be more simple, you have a good cross flow design and minimum loss not to mention reheating the cooled water. Grrrrr

"There's no question a QUALITY rebuilder couldn't produce a pump as good or better than OEM but sadly price pressure from the big chains usually means make it good enough that they don't get too many returns.

You've been around long enough to remember the battery scam that Sears and others foisted upon us. Design them to fail within warranty so they could get you back in the shop to get more money for a prorate job with the potential they could sell you something else you DIDN'T need.

"In you case you may be ok but like I said the issue of the labor involved in replacing a defective pump swamps the part cost so I'll stick to brand new in this application. On other engines where I can swap it in a short time I'm less picky."

Another aspect of this is what you do with a customer so you don't have a comeback may be totally different than what you might do for your own car. I can remember one 10 year period when I didn't spend a dime on my own cars for I drove what I worked on. Hey, save that syncro ring it's close enough to spec that it will work in my car, hmmm those rod bearings are usable... You couldn't take a chance with a customer's car but was good enough for me. If it failed then it got warrantied,

"As you point out, the skill level or people here varies a lot so I tend to be very conservative in my recommendations. I can't tell if someone has the ability inspect a part and decide if it's up to snuff."

I get a kick out of reading TSiAWD91's response, his eyes must have gotten as big as saucers when he grasp how simple that tensioning tool was to make. Probably spent more time looking for the 4-40 screws or 1/8" drill bit shanks. But is the knowing that you have taught someone something that will last them a life time that's the real thrill.
........
"I haven't seen or worked on a Lancia in years, the last being a few Beta's when I used to own a Fiat 124 sedan and 850 spyder."

I had a 4 door sedan family car and the PF coupe which I don't think a DSM could keep up on a mountain road... kinda miss that one like the Aurelia's. I had a PF Flaminia and a PF Flavia with the 4 cylr opposed w/c which gave it a very low hood profile but the car was too heavy for the 1800 cc. After the Feds started requiring crash tests and strict smog laws they gave up on the US market so I never got a Thema which had the Ferrari power plant. For a sedate 4 door sedan to go 160 mph was pretty much unheard of back in the 80's. I think Canada imported them so there might be some way of getting it across the border as a Fiat. hehehe.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[TSiAWD91]

well as far as i know,the pump i have now has atleast 40000 miles on it.the guy i bought the car from had it since i think 60000,and he kept records on it and i dont recall seeing a w/p job,so i imagine its the stock pump.i think ill do that per your guys recommendations since mine most likely has 103000 on it.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by TSiAWD91
well as far as i know,the pump i have now has atleast 40000 miles on it.the guy i bought the car from had it since i think 60000,and he kept records on it and i dont recall seeing a w/p job,so i imagine its the stock pump.i think ill do that per your guys recommendations since mine most likely has 103000 on it.

By all means if it's got that milage then pull the pump, my son's car has 125,000 but there was so much oil crud from the turbo "J" pipe I couldn't determine how old it was. We didn't pull the crank pulley hub or cover completely off since the belt was fairly fresh. All I could see was the top weep hole which had no stains and there was no oil leak from any seals.

Besides this biting me in the back side it also reaffirms why I hate to pressure flush an older cooling system. We've drainded the cooling system possibly 6 times to clear all the rust but it needed a flush with running water though no pressure. Things that didn't leak will if you don't monitor what you are doing, my greatest fear is the heater valve and core will now let go. The intentions were good but the skill level at the dealer leaves something to be desired, it was free but who needs that kind of free. They also machined the rotors and balanced the wheels which was a joke for the shimmy at 40+ is worse than before... one wheel has a good 8 oz so I'll have to re-do that after the W/P.

Cheers,
GTM