Reciepe for 12's

[james13]

I have hopes of hitting a HIGH 12 second quarter in my car. As you can see by my time now i am far from it. So I have been researching a reciepe for the past month and still haven't found what im looking for.

First...can i hit HIGH 12's with any form of a 16g? or should i just go with bolt on 50trim? which version of either should i go with?

It seems that i would be hitting at the least 350 hp to get the 12 second goal so what is needed for the engine and transmission to handle a 12 second time?

If possible i would like to keep the oem ecu and not have to go with dsmlink or similar.

And finally is this goal realistic? or am i pissin in the wind?

If someone knows or has this type of setup let me know where to begin.

thanks

-james

 

[CanadianTSi]

12's on a 16g is pretty easy, with my basic bolt-ons(16g, FMIC, 650's yada yada) and my bone stock 213,000 km motor I just ran 12.9 at 110 with 20psi on pump gas.(first time out)

Next trip to the track I will have all the kinks worked out and drive it harder, so I should she mid 12's with just the basic bolt-on's, no fancy stuff.

 

[98spydert]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Hehe, j/k

Evo3 16G turbo seems to rise above the other 16Gs(and the 18G according to some )

Don't forget a good clutch and good tires!!

 

[G_S_X]

I think there is a post with this EXACT title " reciepe for 12's " I sware Its like deja vu

But anyway, they have all said true things about the 16g, but I will offer some advice on my own part. Being a previous b16g owner, I had spent a good amount of money in mods to max out my 16g. It will get you into the 12's with all the supporting mods. But the question you want to ask yourself is... Do I want Only 12's? Do I ever want to break into the 11's ? Or do I only want a high 12? It's pretty difficult to get a 11 out of a 16g without some decent engine work. Also, I would think it would be cheaper just to buy a bigger turbo, and you could probably get a 12 with less money then if you were to get a 16g with all the supporting mods. A 16g being maxed at 22psi wont last THAT long. Where as another turbo could flow the same CFM at less psi. I don't know if I am making much sense to you, but yeah, thats what I think.

 

[james13]

! That is a great pic 98spydert!

I don't see 11's in my future, but i have contemplated the newsest trend of bolting on a 50 trim....but thats when spool issues come into my head.

My real worry is will all the stock internals of the engine and transmission hold up boosting 18-20 psi?
What do i need to replace to reliably boost 18-20 psi?

and since ya brought it up 98spydert, what clutch would you recommend? i was looking at the centerforce setup.

thanks for the replys

-james

 

[98spydert]

The popular clutches are the 2100, 2600, and centerforce bb set up. As far as a 12.x all three will get you there but the 2600 can take the most abuse, i.e. repetitive launching for that 12. The 2100 heats up the fastest and starts slipping after repetitive launching, and the centerforce is in the middle somewhere.

If your engine and tranny are in good shape, they should be able to handle 18-20 as long as you're a good tuner

 

[james13]

engine and tranny are about to hit 130 grand.

-james

 

[98spydert]

Milage doesn't mean a whole lot. Do a compression test and leak down test. Besides that, it's a judgement call on whether or not your car can handle big power. If it drives wierd and is unreliable because of worn out parts or the tranny grinds real bad... fix it first. Do all your maintence before any speed modifications!!! hint, hint, timing belt.

BTW, you've got a 95 ecu so look into a DSMchips.com EPROM chip. It's a good alternative if you can't/don't want to go with DSMLink.

Good luck

 

[G_S_X]

! That is a great pic 98spydert!

I don't see 11's in my future, but i have contemplated the newsest trend of bolting on a 50 trim....but thats when spool issues come into my head.

My real worry is will all the stock internals of the engine and transmission hold up boosting 18-20 psi?
What do i need to replace to reliably boost 18-20 psi?

and since ya brought it up 98spydert, what clutch would you recommend? i was looking at the centerforce setup.

thanks for the replys

-james

To be totally honest, im not trying to persuade you here but my 50 trim spools faster to 19psi then my b16g did. about 300rpm sooner. Ball bearing.. would be the best

 

[1993eclipseGS]

There are a few guy's in the 11's on the 14b. Bigger is not always better. There are some guy's with huge turbo's not even close..

My buddy just ran a 12.6 with a small 16g

 

[98spydert]

I think these anecdotes suggest you just build your "recipe" around a turbo rather than a number.

 

[Revolution]

12 seconds huhn?

Well the evo will get you their, but not past the 12.01 mark with out engine work.

Hey listen 12 seconds is fast for a street car , but the more deeper you you get to the 10 second mark the more trade offs you will start making.

I suggest you go evo 3 ,with all and I mean all the supporting mods .

Funny I could have sworn their was an upgrade path on the very first page of this site .

Take a look .


p.s by upgrading you'r lsd's to aftermarket ones like the kaaz model you could also become faster.

How ,easy by giving you better traction , it's all about homework , the more you do the better you'll be on making you'r own decisions .


P.s if some one posts ( wtf 12's you could do that on the t25 ) their probably pulling you'r leg or not , the question is can you really tell the difference?


Hence thats why we all state to search so you can become better informed on topics like this that have been posted to death.

Im not trying to be a jerk in any way or form , but really we dont know you'r learning curve only you do , so my advice is read as much as possible about everything.

Most members rarely post unless they can help directly ,instead they just read .

So heres a link ,,go wild

http://www.dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/

 

[Kevin Jewer]

FWIW, on the minimalistic side of things, I ran a 12.7 at 109 in my 95 with a 14b, UICP/BOV, EBC, AFC, pocketlogger, tmo chip. Daily it drove it as well (35k miles a year) like this for years, racing every week. But knowing what I know now, I would go bigger on most things right from the start to avoid countless incremetal upgrades...

 

[james13]

thanks for the replies guys.

i have looked at the tuning guide...but it doesn't discuss wether or not i will need to build the internals of the engine or work on the tranny. That and the 16g or 50 trim delma were the main goals of my post.

but i think i have a better handle on things

thanks to everyone who posted

-james

 

[PieTSI]

Go with the 16g if your on a budget and 50trim if you ever plan on going faster. As for building your engine. No you do not need any internals for 12's.

 

[meh]

might want to think about upgrading cams if you get a 50trim since they have a larger powerband...but not necessary.

 

[james13]

right now it is looking that the 50 trim will actually be cheaper than going with the 16g and having it ported and getting an install kit. And with the 50 trim supposedly spooling to full boost by 3500 rpm i don't see a need for the extra money on the 16g. is this 50 trim spool just a fluke or are they really hitting full boost by 3500?

when running running different cams....what all is involved?


-james

 

[G_S_X]

My 50 trim spooled to 18psi at about 3600 on pump gas, with stock cams; Now that I have HKS cams I upped the boost to 19psi, spools even faster[or so it seems].

 

[james13]

Leaning more and more towards that 50 trim....but should i be looking at external waste gate or internaly gated?

-james

 

[GSX_RCR]

Leaning more and more towards that 50 trim....but should i be looking at external waste gate or internaly gated?

-james

External if you have the money and plan on running big boost. Internal for cheapskates like me.

 

[kpt4321]

Well the evo will get you their, but not past the 12.01 mark with out engine work.

Two local friends of mine have run high 11's on the EvoIII 16g, both of them in their daily drivers (full or almost full weight).

One of them (2g, still has AC, etc) has HKS cams. Otherwise, stock bottom end, His name on here is "ShapeGSX," but he may not be around.

The other friend of mine (1g, light weight reduction, race weight around 3100 pounds probably) has a stock bottom end, and stock cams. 2.5" exhaust, FMIC.

With more engine mods, I think mid 11's are doable, and we are going to shot for 120 mph with the 1g.

 

[SHicksRUS]

A well supported 16G is a great turbo. I myself had low 12 second passes out of mine on pump gas and a 3in exhaust with a cat. The car was basically full weight and didn't have that much special on it. Cams, injectors, fuel pump/regulator, AFC and a frontmount should take care of you. If you can tune and drive there is no reason why your car shouldn't run low 12s or even high 11s with a 16G. 50 trims spool slower than 16Gs in my experience and a good 50 trim set up is both more complicated and more expensive than a 16G. The whole KISS idea applies here and the trap most people seem to fall into is assuming that the biggest turbo is the solution to their problems when in fact it usually is not. I say go with the 16G and you'll be more pleased.

 

[G_S_X]

You say "50 trims spool slower than 16Gs in my experience and a good 50 trim set up is both more complicated and more expensive than a 16G." Have you ever had a 50 trim? If you have then correct me, but if you havn't how are you basing this? I had a 16g for a long time, and switched to a 50 trim because I wanted more. I believe that I have "experience" when it comes to 50trim and a 16g decision. I spent a lot of money on my b16g and the whole setup. Now people with 50trims are making the same amount of power, with Very minimal mods. If by more complicated you mean harder to install, well I guess I just don't really see whats more complicated about it. A turbo install is a turbo install, you will have to find oil/water lines and connect them, then bolt the turbo up. The only thing I think your talking about is maybe in a scenario where you would have to make or get your own custom lines. This was not my case, It was a Bolt on, and the oil lines were practically identical and simply put the gasket there and bolted it on. Now before when I had a 16g, I felt obliged to sware by it, telling people it was the best turbo for a DSM. Now I don't know what you are really thinking, but im saying that was my experience. I think it might be the most popular, and probably the most universal, because of its reputation. Back to the issue of spoolup, my non- ball bearing externally gated setup spools faster then my 16g did. I would get full spool at about 3800 with my 16g. [19psi]

Conclusion - 16g is a good turbo for people who , you know, who some more power , maybe people who don't want to go all out on their car. I just felt like expressing my feelings on the topic, maybe clear up some information.

-Raymond

 

[Kevin Jewer]

My 50 trim had a larger flapper (38 or 40), and there was no way I could get sold boost control with it, even with an adjustable rod. If tightened the rod up enough to try to run high boost, it would creep to 20 psi. If I loosened it enough to get creep back in control, it would blow open at ~22 psi. I dont think I was ever able to get over 23-24 psi on that gate. Went to an external and could run from 13 psi (spring pressure) to as high as the profec would go. I bought a 2g manifold with a deltagate venting all 4 runners with dumptube for ~250 bucks. Best money I ever spent, and that setup lasted me for years. Still have it in fact. With vendors mounting small tials on the #1 runner for 50 bucks, I Cant see why you wouldnt do it, some chage for internal gate option anyway! Its not worth the small amount of money you save, IMO.

 

[SHicksRUS]

I think it might be the most popular, and probably the most universal, because of its reputation. Back to the issue of spoolup, my non- ball bearing externally gated setup spools faster then my 16g did. I would get full spool at about 3800 with my 16g. [19psi]
-Raymond

Ray,
You're not comparing apples to apples here. Anything with an external gate is going to spool faster, that's just one of the perks of having one. I'm not saying that the 50 trim is a bad turbo either, I just think that for the money spent the average person will get as good or better results with the 16G. I think most of the wisemen on this forum will agree with me there. I personally do not have a 50 trim on my own car, however a friend of mine has a vehicle with almost an identicle setup and a 50 trim AGP turbo with an SFP manifold. The thing has been a farking headache for him, mainly the shitty manifold but none the less my point was that my car drove very similar to his and the end set up cost less. Opinions are like assholes though, everyone has one. I prefer the 16G for the money, you prefer the 50 trim. I'm just offering a different opinion than yours, not attacking your opinion. Also, anymore espescially with this board it seems that everyone wants to run a 50 trim and by and large the results from the turbo are just ok. As kpt pointed out there are people with full weight 16G cars in the 11s so what's not to like?