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Question about solder method to determine proper shim thicknesses (updated with numbers doing it the right way, 2 passes now)

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XC92

Proven Member
1,573
358
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
So I got my stacks reassembled with new parts and did the solder method yesterday, but many of the measured values seemed way off. Then I realized that I might have done it wrong.

What I did was first install all new or removed bottom (closest to clutch/engine/bellhousing) races into the case sections using a bearing and race installer kit and small hammer, to get them fully, firmly and permanently installed since they don't have shims under them and won't need to be removed again (at least until the next rebuild hopefully many many years from now).

Then I inserted all the solder pieces of the appropriate length and thicknesses and bent to match each race's curvature, secured with grease (I used silicone brake grease because it's what I had handy, I hope that's ok), placed each respective top race over them, and then fully installed them the same as I did with the unshimmed bottom races, with the appropriately-sized bearing/race kit plate and hammer, so they were firmly seated as far as they'd go.

I think that this is where I erred, since I basically smashed those solder pieces as much as they can be smashed, giving thickness readings that had nothing to do with actual preloads or zero values for the gear stacks, diffs and output shaft.

Should I redo it all, this time inserting each top race just enough so they don't fall out when I assemble the case pieces, and let the stacks, shaft and diffs compress them to the proper thickness as the case is bolted to 29 ft-lb?

Also, a different but related question.

Once I got the right thickness values and correct shims and it's time to assemble the trans, I understand that you need to put a drop of green Loctite 290 on the 3 poppet plugs. Why 290 instead of blue, and can I substitute green Permatex 29000 instead?
 
Yeah you did it wrong. You let the solder smash when bolting down the case. I prefer to do one race at a time. Yes that means you have to bolt the case together multiple times. I don't put the top(end) case on. I space the bolts with washers for the setup. Once you have the smashed solder you have a zero measurement. Calculate preload or endplay from there.
 
Thanks. I realized my mistake both when the readings were way off and just thinking about it. Hopefully I didn't damage anything by pounding on the races to get them all the way in (using race installation plates of course).

But those races are really tough and the shims I end up putting will I assume take up any tiny stack I might have added by compressing the softer aluminum holding the race "holders" (I mean what the races go into) go into.

I just redid everything, all five bearings at once, end case on, per Tim and the FSM, and properly (I hope) this time. Giving it 30-60 min at an ambient outside temp of ~75F and overcast so the case won't get too hot. Hopefully this will do the trick.

What about the threadlock? Any ideas?
 
Ok, did it a third time, the right way this time, and got numbers that make a lot more sense. The 2 lower ones, the output shaft and front diff, were very close to the previous readings, but that makes sense as the diff doesn't have a top race to jam in too far and the output shaft I guess presses in pretty tight.

But the 3 upper ones were way different from the 2 previous readings where I did things wrong, and a lot closer to the current shims that were in the trans when I took it apart, but still different enough that I probably need new shims for most if not all races.

Here's the average of the 2 pieces:

Output Shaft: 1.32mm
Front Diff: 1.03mm
Center Diff: 1.49mm
Input Shaft: 1.05mm
Intermediate Shaft: 1.01mm

These are Tim's recommended preload/endplay range for each for under 400TQ (my Talon TSi AWD is stock):

Input Shaft --> 0.004" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Intermediate Shaft --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Center Differential --> 0.005" - 0.007" PRELOAD
Output Shaft --> 0.003" - 0.005" PRELOAD
Front Differential --> 0.002" - .0067" ENDPLAY

Going with these values and adding or subtracting the average of the upper and lower numbers (converted to mm), here's the shim thickness I should get for each and the closest shim to each value (assuming I did the numbers right):

Output Shaft: 1.4216mm (1.43mm, B43, MD724328)
Front Diff: 0.9195mm (0.92mm, 92, MD720940)
Center Diff: 1.6424mm (1.64mm, 64, MD718529)
Input Shaft: 1.1847mm (1.19mm, L, MD710456)
Intermediate Shaft: 1.1624mm (1.16mm, 16, MD720960)

Does this look right? By way of comparison, here's what was in the trans:

Output Shaft: 1.36mm (1.37mm, B37, D724326)
Front Diff: 0.845mm (0.83mm, 83, MD720937)
Center Diff: 1.415mm (1.43mm, 43, MD718522)
Input Shaft: 1.090mm (1.10mm, J, MD710454)
Intermediate Shaft: 0.920mm (0.92, 92, MD720952)

Should I do it a fourth time (or a second time, the right way)?
 
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So I ended up doing it a 4th time (2nd time the right way), on a somewhat cooler day. All were done outside as my situation precludes doing it indoors. But it was around 70F and overcast. The first time it was 75F or hotter and partly sunny.

Here are the numbers, average of the 2 pieces:

Output Shaft: 1.38mm
Front Diff: 0.96mm
Center Diff: 1.45mm
Input Shaft: 1.08mm
Intermediate Shaft: 1.05mm

These were the numbers from the 1st (proper) pass:

Output Shaft: 1.32mm
Front Diff: 1.03mm
Center Diff: 1.49mm
Input Shaft: 1.05mm
Intermediate Shaft: 1.01mm

The center diff and input and intermediate shafts had a 0.03-0.04mm difference, but the output shaft and front diff were off by 0.06-0.07mm. Is that bad and should I do it yet again, or should I just average these and pick shim sizes that fit within Tim's recommended low/high preload and endplay values for my stock setup?

Btw is Tim on vacation or something this week? I PMed and emailed TMZ asking for prices and availability of shims and lock rings several days ago but haven't heard back yet. Without the proper ones I'm kind of stuck and can't put the trans back together and on the car. I mean I can, but what would be the point. Do dealers carry the most common ones or can they be obtained elsewhere, or can I fashion them from those Shim in a Can things?
 
Also make sure you don't use solder that expands after you crush it or you will get the wrong measurement. Manual says to use 0.063"D but not having that I used 0.055" flux core silver solder and got good measurements. I tryed solid solder first but kept getting inconsistant measurements so I reasoned it was expanding and switched to the flux core.
 
Both are rosin core. The deltas aren't that major so I assume it was due to temperature differences and maybe torquing the case bolts slightly differently each day. I used a torque wrench but the way I do it is I give each bolt another tiny tightening to confirm that I torqued each properly since there are 23 bolts in all and it's hard to remember if I did them all without checking. I think I have the right shims chosen but if Tim could confirm (and has them in stock and is willing to sell them to me), that would be great.
 
Does anyone know if Tim at TMZ is back from vacation and open for business? I've been trying to reach him regarding some shims and lock rings I need to order to complete my trans rebuild and haven't heard back. Can't finish the job without these parts since my existing shims are too far off from the ones I need to be useable.

Alternately, does anyone know if I can get at least some of these elsewhere? Cars been on stands for 6 weeks and I'm itching to get it back together again.
 
Can Jacks or bastarddsm help you with any of those parts.....or TRE? They all do DSM transmissions.
 
Thanks, I'll give them a try. I assume he's still on vacation as he hasn't posted here or responded to my emails or PMs. Is he a one man operation, basically?

Btw I finally got my stock flywheel resurfaced yesterday. I was amazed at how shiny and new the cut surfaces are. Looks like a new rotor. I thought it would just get a nice scrubbing but this took the old metal all the way down to fresh metal. Most impressive.
 
I gave them a step range of from 0.608"-0.612" and to aim for 0.610" and flat from the inner to outer edge. They said they did just that and checked it several times. When I got home I checked with both a digital caliper and dial indicator and pretty much every reading was within this range, with one or two maybe 0.6125". I think I'm good.

I'm also installing a new fork and fulcrum, Competition Clutch, and the clutch and PP are nearly new, 100-200 miles on them tops, so I doubt I have to shim.

The only thing I might have to worry about is that even with the proper step the resurfacing moved things ever so slightly towards the engine, which hopefully won't require more than a small adjustment at the MC rod.

I'm going to pull the pedal assembly and rebuild it once this is done, and probably rebuild or replace the MC and replaced the SC last year, so I'm good there too. Oh, and I'm also replacing the clutch hose and short line to the SC, with SS braided from JNZ. Just have to bleed everything properly when I'm done.

Also rebuilding the shifter and shift and select levers with new bushings (including shifter base) and shoe (including cable end), and I cleaned, derusted and painted all the non-sliding parts. Pretty much everything that can and should be replaced or rebuilt regarding the clutch, flywheel, trans or shifting, I've done or will have done.

I just need some damn shims! :banghead:

Yes he's a one man operation. BTW I have 5 or 6 shims. You can also put a couple together if needed.
The numbers are all above if what you have is what I need and you're willing to sell them to me.

The ones I can't get are the 1.61mm center diff and 1.43mm front output shaft shims, and the 1.60mm input shaft outer lock ring.

I can probably reuse the 1.50mm for the latter and be ok as there's a 0.10mm gap at most, but the other two are far enough from the shims I took out that I really need them.

The others I can get from a dealer within a week or so. But I'd really rather get everything from Tim as he's been so helpful and I ended up buying most of the trans internals from dealers, basically to save time. Which of course ended up saving me no time, effectively.
 
The others I can get from a dealer within a week or so. But I'd really rather get everything from Tim as he's been so helpful and I ended up buying most of the trans internals from dealers, basically to save time. Which of course ended up saving me no time, effectively.
Yep exactly what I warned you about. Dealers sites say they have the shims but they really don't and won't ever tell you - just forever say they are on back order. Plus Tim bought all the shims up from dealers years ago.
 
They actually had nearly all of the other parts I needed, hub/slider, synchros, keys, bushings, etc. And the ones I've dealt with have been up-front about availability, when I asked about specific parts. It's their online ordering site that often doesn't reflect it.

Other parts I got from JNZ, especially aftermarket shifter and cable bushings. It's the shims and lock rings they don't have in full, missing 3 out of 7, 2 of which are essential.

I realize that Tim should have these, but he's been unreachable for several weeks (on an understandably well-deserved vacation), so I can't complete the rebuild without him it appears. I'm not even sure he'd be willing to sell me the ones I need if he's low on them and prefers to keep them for his rebuilds.

I'll also look into the possibility of combining thinner shims to get the correct thickness. Maybe dealers or others have those. I'm literally just a day or two's work from getting my car working again, save for these shims and lock rings.

Bunch of other things to do but they're not a big deal, replacing the rear seal, cleaning the oil pan, possibly replacing the front wheel bearings, etc. It's the shims.
 
The only thing I might have to worry about is that even with the proper step the resurfacing moved things ever so slightly towards the engine, which hopefully won't require more than a small adjustment at the MC rod.

I just need some damn shims! :banghead:
Adjusting the MC rod adjusts pedal height but is not the proper way to change the fork throw. Think about it. If the fork is too far towards the passenger side it might never move far enough to completely disengage the clutch (it will hit the bell housing) no matter where you adjust the MC or SC rods (or what length rods you have). But what definitely WILL happen is the fork will bottom out against the bell housing and you'll crack it when the pedal is pushed all the way down. And if it's too far towards the engine side it will let the clutch disk move so far that it's springs hit the flywheel (personnel experience).

Ya my shims aren't the ones you need.

It's the shims.
Yep, welcome to the rebuild your own tranny club. But it's better than every local tranny repair shop. I can tell you from personnel experience that NONE of them (even tranny only specialist shops) will shim the tranny at all. I've talked with 8 shops and had one tranny specialist shop rebuild my tranny (which caused me to learn to rebuild it myself after it failed in just 1 year). They ALL just put the existing shims back in saying it's good enough, and that doing the solder method takes way too much of their time, and that they can't get the shims anyway. Every one of them told me this to my face.
 
With all the time and effort and parts and availability that Tim put into the forum posts, why didn't you just buy EVERYTHING from HIM :idontknow:
You would be time ahead and time is money.
I just didn't get why he gave you everything you needed but you bought parts from other unknown sources. A man has to make a living, this is nothing more than a hobby for us, or most of us.
Marty
 
Adjusting the MC rod adjusts pedal height but is not the proper way to change the fork throw. Think about it. If the fork is too far towards the passenger side it might never move far enough to completely disengage the clutch (it will hit the bell housing) no matter where you adjust the MC or SC rods (or what length rods you have). But what definitely WILL happen is the fork will bottom out against the bell housing and you'll crack it when the pedal is pushed all the way down. And if it's too far towards the engine side it will let the clutch disk move so far that it's springs hit the flywheel (personnel experience).

Ya my shims aren't the ones you need.

Yep, welcome to the rebuild your own tranny club. But it's better than every local tranny repair shop. I can tell you from personnel experience that NONE of them (even tranny only specialist shops) will shim the tranny at all. I've talked with 8 shops and had one tranny specialist shop rebuild my tranny (which caused me to learn to rebuild it myself after it failed in just 1 year). They ALL just put the existing shims back in saying it's good enough, and that doing the solder method takes way too much of their time, and that they can't get the shims anyway. Every one of them told me this to my face.

Then how does one deal with the clutch & pressure plate being moved every so slightly towards the engine after every resurfacing, especially with a new clutch, pressure plate, fork, fulcrum and release bearing? Is it basically a non-issue for the first X resurfacings, and then you either replace it with a new one or compensate somehow, and if the latter then how? And isn't this one of the reasons the MC rod can be adjusted?

And as for DIY rebuilds, I did this less because I wanted it done right (although that too) than because I couldn't afford or justify spending what a decent shop would have charged, at least local ones before I found out about specialist send out shops such as the ones folks here use. But I generally like to do things myself as a rule. Of course, this comes with certain drawbacks. But they're usually manageable.
 
Maybe theres messaging issues on his site? I never got a response when I sent one, although I chalked it up to being busy.
 
Then how does one deal with the clutch & pressure plate being moved every so slightly towards the engine after every resurfacing, especially with a new clutch, pressure plate, fork, fulcrum and release bearing? Is it basically a non-issue for the first X resurfacings, and then you either replace it with a new one or compensate somehow, and if the latter then how? And isn't this one of the reasons the MC rod can be adjusted?

And as for DIY rebuilds, I did this less because I wanted it done right (although that too) than because I couldn't afford or justify spending what a decent shop would have charged, at least local ones before I found out about specialist send out shops such as the ones folks here use. But I generally like to do things myself as a rule. Of course, this comes with certain drawbacks. But they're usually manageable.
This is exactly why people shim the pivot ball under the fork. Moves the fork closer to engine.
You can check the fork position just as soon as trans is bolted down. If it needs shims you could drop it back out before hooking up all the rest of everything. Much easier than the 8 times I dropped a trans one time.

Read this.
 
Then how does one deal with the clutch & pressure plate being moved every so slightly towards the engine after every resurfacing, especially with a new clutch, pressure plate, fork, fulcrum and release bearing? Is it basically a non-issue for the first X resurfacings, and then you either replace it with a new one or compensate somehow, and if the latter then how? And isn't this one of the reasons the MC rod can be adjusted?
Whenever you resurface the flywheel OR replace any (even all) of those parts (especially if ANY are not OEM factory), the geometry gets slightly changed, and so you MAY have to shim the pivot ball to get the fork back into the proper place in the window (fork window: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclipsetech/clutch/armcentered.jpg). There's no way to tell if you need shimming until you bolt the tranny back onto the engine to see where the fork now ends up.

Adjusting the MC rod adjusts the pedal height and/or how far you press the pedal before the MC hydraulics force the clutch to start disengaging/engaging, and so may account for some small clutch adjustment after everything is together. But adjusting it too far can be disastrous (or not enough). Remember, once the clutch starts disengaging, the fork position (not the MC rod) determines the maximum it can go (and so then if it is enough or too much). And too far fork movement, depending on starting position in the window, can either bottom out against the bell housing and crack it (fork starting too far left of center), or move the PP fingers against the flywheel (fork starting too far right of center so fork moves too far). So shim the pivot ball if it needs it (to get the fork in the correct starting position) while you still can before putting all the rest of the car back together. Yes you'll have to remove the tranny again to shim it. But it beats cracking your bell housing or having the PP fingers hitting the flywheel, both of which you'll be removing your tranny again and replacing expensive parts.

BTW I made a small error in my post #18. I said "And if it's too far towards the engine side it will let the clutch disk move so far that it's springs hit the flywheel (personnel experience)". I meant to say "And if it's too far towards the engine side it will let the PP fingers (part the TO bearing pushes) move so far that they hit the clutch disk (personnel experience)".
 
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pauleyman, luv2rallye,

Thanks, this makes things clearer. And installing the trans to check the fork position and maybe having to take it out again to shim the fulcrum doesn't seem that bad since I'll have the trans on a trans jack and like you said I don't need to install anything else until I've got things just right, e.g. starter, cables, torquing everything down, etc.

My guess is that a shim won't be necessary as this is either the first or second resurfacing for this flywheel, but I'll see when I put the trans back on.

Is there some sort of minimum thickness for a flywheel before it needs shimming, or are there too many variables for this to be possible?

I now wish that I had measured and recorded both the friction surface and bolt step heights before and after resurfacing, to know exactly how much surface had been removed. Perhaps the shop did this and if I call them they can give it to me, but I doubt it.
 
I use this as a guide. A stock flywheel surface rides pretty high. Above the cast recesses between the pads if I recall. When it starts getting 100 thousandths below that it's noticeable and looks weird. Where is the limit? I don't know. Might have to go check my manual.
 
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