2G Pushing coolant again

[jakk220]

here is a 4th gear

 

[jakk220]

A little bit of a cruise log. I blew a coolant plug so i have to stop it. The plug was one I had capped off for the oil cooler. It was a hose with a bolt in it. Maybe it was part of the issue. Or maybe it built up too much pressure and it was the weak point.

 

[jakk220]

Well turns out on the 4th gear pull I was logging blew the head gasket. That's where the excess pressure came from that blew the plug out. I also now have coolant in my oil. So I have to rip it apart. Since it didn't really get driven should the bearings be okay?

 

[diambo4life]

You may be ok depending on how long the car was driven with contaminated oil and how hard. But you need to do another leakdown test and find out why the coolant system is being pressurized. Read my previous post.

 

[jakk220]

You may be ok depending on how long the car was driven with contaminated oil and how hard. But you need to do another leakdown test and find out why the coolant system is being pressurized. Read my previous post.

Well in regards to your previous post I can eliminate a few things
1. The head was flat. It was machined with an RA finish and was checked by the machine shop and myself
2. Block was flat. Checked by myself after being cleaned. Checked with feeler gauges and a straight edge.
3. The block and head have both been pressure tested. No cracks. The issue also goes a way for a while after replacing the gasket. Unlikely culprit.
4. Oil cooler does not have coolant running to it.

As far as the prep work and hardware goes it has to be one of these I would assume. Or my tune causing too high of cylinder pressure with the 9:1 pistons. I'm going to switch to a new set of L19's and a new head completely.

You may be ok depending on how long the car was driven with contaminated oil and how hard.

It was driven for about 2 miles at most after I noticed the coolant plug had blown out (which was when this gasket gave way, after the 4th gear pull above. No coolant in oil before that pull and no white smoke until after that) and maybe 10 min of idle time. It also was babied home that 2 miles.

 

[jakk220]

Head's do get soft from hard use.

Biglady, I'm pretty sure almost every system in the world shows total timing in the maps, as long as you have the cas set correctly. I do get your point, his map probably assumes 5* base, and if he was at 10* by chance he has 24 when his logger shows 19. I think 19 is a bit high. I had my best luck on the holset setup in the 12.0 AFR region with 17-18* of timing at high rpm, and BR8ES plugs. The BR8ES plugs and tight gaps, has an effect of retarding the timing some.

The other point is what is your timing like at peak torque? That's where your wounding gaskets. You should be around 10* at 5000RPM at 35psi.

Any chance you would have a minute to look over the logs I posted and see whats wrong with the tune or if that might have caused it?

 

[biglady112]

I am with Mike. You likely have damage somewhere that is causing the system to be pressurized. Do you have any pictures of these or even this blown head gasket? It is quite easy to tell if they are sealing or not. Regardless of what kind of gasket it is. It will show on the block and cylinder head as well. My vote is it is going to be deeper than you would like for it to be. Be prepared you may have a junk engine.

How was the head and block tested? I have only ever seen the intake and exhaust ports pressure tested for valve sealing. I have had 125+ blocks machine and i personally assembled all of them and in 18 years have never had a block tested. This would be a new procedure to me say over magnafluxing (which I have never done to a single block or head). How was this block pressure tested? I sure would love to know. And what proof do you have that it was done?

What kind of water pump is on the car? Does it look like a fan blade or a disc brake rotor? We had an issue long ago that eventually led to multiple freeze plugs getting forced out. It ended up being a water pump (after market disc brake type). Went back to a factory fan blade type and the car ended up back on track and made big boy horsepower like it was built for.

 

[jakk220]

I am with Mike. You likely have damage somewhere that is causing the system to be pressurized. Do you have any pictures of these or even this blown head gasket? It is quite easy to tell if they are sealing or not. Regardless of what kind of gasket it is. It will show on the block and cylinder head as well. My vote is it is going to be deeper than you would like for it to be. Be prepared you may have a junk engine.

How was the head and block tested? I have only ever seen the intake and exhaust ports pressure tested for valve sealing. I have had 125+ blocks machine and i personally assembled all of them and in 18 years have never had a block tested. This would be a new procedure to me say over magnafluxing (which I have never done to a single block or head). How was this block pressure tested? I sure would love to know. And what proof do you have that it was done?

What kind of water pump is on the car? Does it look like a fan blade or a disc brake rotor? We had an issue long ago that eventually led to multiple freeze plugs getting forced out. It ended up being a water pump (after market disc brake type). Went back to a factory fan blade type and the car ended up back on track and made big boy horsepower like it was built for.

I never really asked how it was tested to be honest. I suppose I could call the machine shop that did all my work and ask exactly what their procedure is. I used a reputable shop that my friend has had numerous motors he's built at and I trust his judgement.

I suppose I cant "Prove" anything. Short of standing over their shoulder and watching them pressure test the head and block I'm not sure how I could ask them to prove it. If their is a way by all means please tell me so I can ask for it next time. The machine shop that did my head was aware of the issue I was having and said the head is not cracked and it was tested.

Either way my only issue with a cracked head or block is that after I do a head gasket job, the problem will completely go away. Like I do not lose a drop of coolant... for a while anyway. When I take the head off this time I will post pictures of the gasket and everything. I do have one from the first failure I will post when I get off work.

I appreciate everyone helping me with this issue. I normally can handle things on my own for the most part but this is frustrating.

 

[jakk220]

Here is a photo of the first gasket. I believe I still have to second one in my garage. I will look tomorrow and post pictures if i do.

 

[biglady112]

Not the best picture but, I don't see anything out of the norm there other than the ring that would go around the teardrop feed/stud. And everything I see looks just like you would expect from removing a stock gasket after some use. Notice how intact the fire ring is with no damage or blackening? And pretty much that whole picture looks intact with no major trama or blackening.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but, I have never seen a blown head gasket look so good in 18 years.

 

[jakk220]

I wish i had a full picture of the gasket with both sides. But unfortunately I don't. I will post pictures of this one that i take off for sure. What ever the problem is not it is going to be VERY apparent seeing as how I have coolant in the oil, burning smoke, and TONS of pressure in the coolant system. I'm willing to put money on those head studs not being torqued down properly anymore. Haven't checked them since I did the last gasket after a few heat cycles. Either I'm betting they are stretched or something...

 

[jakk220]

If anyone could look over my logs in the mean time for anything out of the norm that would be awesome.

 

[EGLTAWLN]

i looked at your log and your mafcomp needs some work. at wot, the wideband does not reflect the desired afratioest from the da tables. more WOT tuning is needed. In fact your cruise mafcomp needs some help as well.
You don't have the narrowband simulation set up, you should try to get that working.
Nothing really bad in the log, no knock is strange for how out of tune the maf comp is. the da timing table seems alright. Your deadtime seems excessive for the injectors you have... a MAP sensor would really help the tuning.....

 

[brownfinger]

I've had almost the same problems with a nearly stock 4G63T. new Mitsu thermostat, cap, etc... arps, double checked the torque, some is tune, some is home-made engine. tried different heads, different gaskets. Just a stock engine w/ a 16G at about 16 psi. exact same shiz. overheating and pushing coolant. but it's been getting better. I know it isn't technical, but sometimes you just have to work for it. you're way out of the parameters the thing was supposed to work at

 

[brownfinger]

I mean you've built a totally custom machine. it shouldn't be an easy thing to make it work right

 

[brownfinger]

i was running a wallbro w/ a stock fpr. once i figured out that, things cooled down a lot.

 

[jakk220]

i looked at your log and your mafcomp needs some work. at wot, the wideband does not reflect the desired afratioest from the da tables. more WOT tuning is needed. In fact your cruise mafcomp needs some help as well.
You don't have the narrowband simulation set up, you should try to get that working.
Nothing really bad in the log, no knock is strange for how out of tune the maf comp is. the da timing table seems alright. Your deadtime seems excessive for the injectors you have... a MAP sensor would really help the tuning.....

I figured someone would say my MAF comp is off. I have been playing hell trying to get it dialed in just even at idle. Ill change it so that its at .25 and then drive it down the street and let it idle and it goes way back up to 28-30. I have been fighting the same thing with the cruise logs. I will set it to what ECM link wants it to be after doing a cruise log and the next day it will want something else.

Not that I can really switch it now, but how do I go about getting my AFRest to match my wideband at WOT? I have always wondered that. I just never thought the AFRest matching really made a difference to anything as long as the wideband was on point. I'll be the first to say I am a newb tuner and am still learning things like this.

The reason that it may not be knocking could be because I'm on E85 maybe?

The dead time I was also playing around with to get the fuel trims in line. The have the same issue as the maf comp it seems. I will dial it in where it should be and after driving its completely off again. They are both constantly all over the place no matter what I do.

 

[jakk220]

I've had almost the same problems with a nearly stock 4G63T. new Mitsu thermostat, cap, etc... arps, double checked the torque, some is tune, some is home-made engine. tried different heads, different gaskets. Just a stock engine w/ a 16G at about 16 psi. exact same shiz. overheating and pushing coolant. but it's been getting better. I know it isn't technical, but sometimes you just have to work for it. you're way out of the parameters the thing was supposed to work at

believe me I understand that I am well out of the range that it was built for. But it should not be having this issue as many other people run this set up with out these issues. I think that I am going to just take the timing back to 10 degrees, get a new head, L19s and see what happens. If that doesn't work ill probably have to pull the whole motor. This will be the last time I attempt to just replace things top end wise.

 

[kmetiuk]

Your tune needs some serious work (not tryna be harsh as I know you're a noob, I'm just being honest)....there are some very basic ECMLink functions/settings that could be causing crazy cylinder pressures which is why you popped a freeze plug (which is crazy to begin with). You are definitely lifting the head due to an incomplete tune. If it were a cracked cylinder wall you'd have that symptom through a lot of the boost range and maybe issues with vacuum at idle as well.

Comments on your logs:
#### WB and AFREst don't match your WB and AFREst do not match at all through any range of the RPM. These need to match as close as possible (1-2% at most is what I shoot for). AFREst is what the ECU thinks it is at and is ONLY affected by MAF and the MAFcomp table. The OEM 02 is a narrowband O2 sensor and internally the ECU is not compatible with a wideband O2....they are 2 totally different animals....that is why there is a narrowband O2 simulation to "trick" the ECU. The WB you installed does not tell the ECU what the AFR is at all. It is simply an external sensor that is used for logging, a loggable item that you then use to calibrate the MAFcomp table by comparing AFREst (what the ECU thinks AFR is) and your WB (what the AFR actually is). Your MAF comp table is only calibrated up to 300hz (which is just over idling) but your pull goes to a MAF reading of 3000 hz. Use the MAF comp table to calibrate your MAF to the inake system of your specific setup by pulling or adding air as needed. This final calibrated MAF signal is what tells the ECU what the Loadfactor is...which then affects fuel delivery and spark time directly. If you do not have this dialed in then your timing could be at 19* or it could be at 30*

How to calibrate MAFComp using WB and AFREst: look at your 4th gear log at 4185 RPM...the MAF is showing 1500Hz, the AFREst is 11:1 and the WB is showing 10.2:1. In this case the ECU thinks you are much leaner than you are (7.9% leaner infact...use WBFactor in the log). You need to tell the ECU that you are in fact flowing less air than that by adjusting the MAFComp slider at 1500hz....in this case you need to subtract some air there. I personally would slide it down -5% or -8% then compare against the next log and see if the AFREst did come down at the 1500HZ point...if not move the slider more and log again. You need to do this at every single HZ point in the MAFComp table. Right upto 2400Hz that is...

#### MAF is being over run So another issue is that you are running over 2400 hz...but the log is showing upto 3000Hz. The 2G MAF is only usable upto 2400hz hence why the MAFComp table only goes that high as well. You are over running the 2G MAF. Since you are running V3Lite I am not sure what your ECU does over 2400HZ of air flow. From the ECMLlink site full V3 (but not V3Lite) has the following feature: "MAF Comp Simulation: Allows you to run a nice, smooth factory MAF for all your idle and cruise functions and then switch to pseudo SD when the MAF sensor is about to over run. This function basically disables the MAF under high boost and simulates and extrapolates airflow automatically.)" So I really dunno what the ECU does in your case since you are clearly over running the MAF.

#### Fuel and Timing as stated earlier your calibrated MAFComp table is what your ECU uses to get a true MAF reading. This value is then used in a calculation to to produce LoadFactor. Loadfactor is then used to for fuel delivery (direct access fuel target tables) and spark timing. If your MAF is off (which it clearly is) so is your timing and fuel (as we mentioned earlier the WB and AFRest do not match).

For fuel I can see from your log that in the fuel tab in "config" screen that you are running -45.3% (which works out to a 1250cc injector based on base pressure of 42.5 psi and E85) and a deadtime of 795. BUT your profile says you are running 1450cc.... the global should be -53.8 (for 42.5 psi and E85) and a dead time of 730 is the general consensus for the 1450cc. Then when I look at your cruise log at the start where you are idling I can see that again your WB and AFREst do not match (however at least the car IS idling) which is a symptom of the wrong dead times and global fuel % and an improperly calibrated MAFComp table. Then I looked at your direct access tables and I can see that your deadtimes in InjBatteryAdj are still at stock....which is NOT possible unless you compensated for battery voltage deadtime by using global fuel % instead.

I have ran the 1650cc blue max injectors and they were terrible to get the idle dialed in. The injectors should have came with a data sheet that has the proper dead-times by voltage. You absolutely need this data inputted into the InjBatteryAdj table to get cruise and idle dialed in properly. THEN you can start calibrating the MAF. Without the proper deadtimes your cruise and idle will be near impossible to get dialed in. If you lost the sheet or don't have it call FIC and get the values. Its absolutely necessary....no if's and or buts. Once the data is inputted into the voltage table and global is at -53.8 and 730us then your base fuel is setup. NOW you can do idle/cruise/WOT tuning. If you have the wrong global fuel % the rest of your tuning is slightly off and the ECU will have to use fuel trims to try and compensate for the improper setup. If you change the global fuel % (or base fuel pressure) at any point after you have calibrated the MAFComp, you will need to recalibrate it again so get theese values right before you do anything.

My MAFComp at idle with the 1650cc was like -30% for the 0-50hz sliders....it needs a large negative adjustment around idle b/c idle does not flow very much air through the MAF and therefore it's not exactly laminar flow. Non-Laminar flow through a large diameter MAF like the 2G has needs large adjustments in the low hz range.

In the same fuel tab you have adjusted the sliders up by ~ 8%. I am assuming that you did this in order to richen up the WB in th higher RPM....but the issue is it will richen up this amount wether it is at 0 psi or 40 psi it always gonna use 8%. This is no the way to richen it up (using MAFComp) and will give poor results.

For timing; since your LoadFactor is off so too will your timing be off as loadfactor is one of the axis in direct access. For example at 4902 RPM in the 4th gear log it says your load factor is 2.9 and your BoostEst is 30.8 psi but you say its 34 psi on the gauge so that is a difference of nearly 10%. That means your Loadfactor is actually higher than what the ECU thinks it is. If the ECU thinks it is lower in load factor it is going to use more aggressive timing from the DA table than what you actually want/set it too. Again, you MUST dial in the MAFComp to give the ECU an actual idea of where it is airflow wise or everything else is going to be off. That being said you have V3Lite and the loadfactor only goes to 2.6 so I am not sure what the ECU is doing outside those values.

#### Open Loop Thresholds and Narrowband O2 These were all set to 1.13 likely b/c you read on ECMLink that is how you do a cruise tune using CombinedFT and the tool they provide in DSMLink. You need to setup the narrowband simulation first in order for the fuel trims to work properly which THEN will use the Open Loop thresholds to stay in closed loop mode which THEN will give true fuel trims which THEN will allow the tool to work properly. Remember when i said the WB you installed does not tell the ECU what the AFR is at all? Well that is mostly true except when it comes to narrowband O2 simulation.

So how a normal O2 works is it either switches HI or LOW....or OFF and ON at around stoich of 14.7:1. Goes over 14.7 switches...goes below it switches the other way. The fuel trims in the ECU use this switch point to get it to sit at 14.7. So if you are cruising and your NBO2 sees you went over 14.7 (lean) it switches which the ECU sees and then starts adding fuel until it goes rich or under 14.7...at which point the NBO2 switches the other way and the ECU start pulling fuel until it goes rich...at which point the NBO2 switches the other way and the ECU start adding fuel again....and repeat over and over and over. The NBO2's only job is to switch back and forth, back and forth, back and forth telling the ECU on which side of 14.7 it is on so it can pull or add fuel...but you put in a WBO2 so the ECU has literally no idea where it is AFR wise...unless you turn on the NBO2 in Link which will instantly fix that problem.

By not setting up the NBO2 your ECU has no idea at all what side of 14.7 it is on when you are in closed loop mode....which you are in alot since you adjusted your Open loop thresholds so high. When you are using the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) to tune its gonna set it totally differently each time as the ECU has no idea what the fuel delievery should be. You must turn on the narrowbandO2 simulation in order to get your cruise and idle's in the 14.7 range. From the cruise log I can see that your AFR is all over the fcuking place....it must feel like a piece of shiiit and be popping and shiit like crazy. Turn on NBO2 and it will fix this instantly. Once turned on you need to reset your fuel trims b/c they'll be all messed up from not having a NBO2 signal. Then go for a cruise and it you will start getting real fuel trims at which point you can then use the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool to dial in your sliders.

Once all the MAFComp tables are dialed in from cruising make sure to reset the open loop thresholds back to stock BEFORE you do WOT tuning.






What you need to do (IN ORDER) to not blow anything else up and get normal AFR at idle and during cruising:
1. Input actual deadtimes by voltage for your injectors from FIC
2. Set global fuel % to around -53.8% based on base fuel pressure (disconnect vac line to the AFPR first) of 42.5 psi and global dead time to 730us
3. Setup the narrowband O2 simulation
4. Start car and once warm move MAFComp sliders 0Hz and 50Hz down until the WB matches the AFREst while also making sure that CombinedFT stays as close to 0 as possible (usually hovers within +/-2%)
5. Go for a cruise (leave the open loop thresholds where you set them) and use the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool to dial in sliders. Then cruise and MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool again. Repeat a few times until they are barely being moved by the tool anymore. They can always be adjusted so once I get it to where I am moving them 1 or 2 "notches" I stop.
6. Reset open loop thresholds back to stock.
7. Set your boost level MUCH MUCH lower than 34 psi. Personally I would set to 20psi and then dial in the MAFComp first. 27PSI at 4200 RPM is the same to the MAF (1700HZ) as 20PSI at 6500RPM...but clearly 20 psi is safer for an uncalibrated ECU than 34 psi.
8. Go for a 3rd pull after 3rd gear pull and adjust the MAFComp slider until your WBO2 closely matches the AFREst.
9. Turn boost up 5 (or more PSI) and watch your log to see if the WB matches the AFREst still....if so turn up more....if not adjust sliders until it does....then turn up some more.
10. Profit.




One last and final thing that you need to take into account with E85.....it is not knock limited tuning. Meaning you can do whatever with timing (to a point) and it wont knock....however it will cause crazy cylinder pressure which is why you keep popping heads and frost plugs. E85 is torque limited tuning, meaning the only way you know that you are getting more power by advancing timing is by comparing torque output.

 

[jakk220]

Your tune needs some serious work (not tryna be harsh as I know you're a noob, I'm just being honest)....there are some very basic ECMLink functions/settings that could be causing crazy cylinder pressures which is why you popped a freeze plug (which is crazy to begin with). You are definitely lifting the head due to an incomplete tune. If it were a cracked cylinder wall you'd have that symptom through a lot of the boost range and maybe issues with vacuum at idle as well.

Comments on your logs:
#### WB and AFREst don't match your WB and AFREst do not match at all through any range of the RPM. These need to match as close as possible (1-2% at most is what I shoot for). AFREst is what the ECU thinks it is at and is ONLY affected by MAF and the MAFcomp table. The OEM 02 is a narrowband O2 sensor and internally the ECU is not compatible with a wideband O2....they are 2 totally different animals....that is why there is a narrowband O2 simulation to "trick" the ECU. The WB you installed does not tell the ECU what the AFR is at all. It is simply an external sensor that is used for logging, a loggable item that you then use to calibrate the MAFcomp table by comparing AFREst (what the ECU thinks AFR is) and your WB (what the AFR actually is). Your MAF comp table is only calibrated up to 300hz (which is just over idling) but your pull goes to a MAF reading of 3000 hz. Use the MAF comp table to calibrate your MAF to the inake system of your specific setup by pulling or adding air as needed. This final calibrated MAF signal is what tells the ECU what the Loadfactor is...which then affects fuel delivery and spark time directly. If you do not have this dialed in then your timing could be at 19* or it could be at 30*

How to calibrate MAFComp using WB and AFREst: look at your 4th gear log at 4185 RPM...the MAF is showing 1500Hz, the AFREst is 11:1 and the WB is showing 10.2:1. In this case the ECU thinks you are much leaner than you are (7.9% leaner infact...use WBFactor in the log). You need to tell the ECU that you are in fact flowing less air than that by adjusting the MAFComp slider at 1500hz....in this case you need to subtract some air there. I personally would slide it down -5% or -8% then compare against the next log and see if the AFREst did come down at the 1500HZ point...if not move the slider more and log again. You need to do this at every single HZ point in the MAFComp table. Right upto 2400Hz that is...

#### MAF is being over run So another issue is that you are running over 2400 hz...but the log is showing upto 3000Hz. The 2G MAF is only usable upto 2400hz hence why the MAFComp table only goes that high as well. You are over running the 2G MAF. Since you are running V3Lite I am not sure what your ECU does over 2400HZ of air flow. From the ECMLlink site full V3 (but not V3Lite) has the following feature: "MAF Comp Simulation: Allows you to run a nice, smooth factory MAF for all your idle and cruise functions and then switch to pseudo SD when the MAF sensor is about to over run. This function basically disables the MAF under high boost and simulates and extrapolates airflow automatically.)" So I really dunno what the ECU does in your case since you are clearly over running the MAF.

#### Fuel and Timing as stated earlier your calibrated MAFComp table is what your ECU uses to get a true MAF reading. This value is then used in a calculation to to produce LoadFactor. Loadfactor is then used to for fuel delivery (direct access fuel target tables) and spark timing. If your MAF is off (which it clearly is) so is your timing and fuel (as we mentioned earlier the WB and AFRest do not match).

For fuel I can see from your log that in the fuel tab in "config" screen that you are running -45.3% (which works out to a 1250cc injector based on base pressure of 42.5 psi and E85) and a deadtime of 795. BUT your profile says you are running 1450cc.... the global should be -53.8 (for 42.5 psi and E85) and a dead time of 730 is the general consensus for the 1450cc. Then when I look at your cruise log at the start where you are idling I can see that again your WB and AFREst do not match (however at least the car IS idling) which is a symptom of the wrong dead times and global fuel % and an improperly calibrated MAFComp table. Then I looked at your direct access tables and I can see that your deadtimes in InjBatteryAdj are still at stock....which is NOT possible unless you compensated for battery voltage deadtime by using global fuel % instead.

I have ran the 1650cc blue max injectors and they were terrible to get the idle dialed in. The injectors should have came with a data sheet that has the proper dead-times by voltage. You absolutely need this data inputted into the InjBatteryAdj table to get cruise and idle dialed in properly. THEN you can start calibrating the MAF. Without the proper deadtimes your cruise and idle will be near impossible to get dialed in. If you lost the sheet or don't have it call FIC and get the values. Its absolutely necessary....no if's and or buts. Once the data is inputted into the voltage table and global is at -53.8 and 730us then your base fuel is setup. NOW you can do idle/cruise/WOT tuning. If you have the wrong global fuel % the rest of your tuning is slightly off and the ECU will have to use fuel trims to try and compensate for the improper setup. If you change the global fuel % (or base fuel pressure) at any point after you have calibrated the MAFComp, you will need to recalibrate it again so get theese values right before you do anything.

My MAFComp at idle with the 1650cc was like -30% for the 0-50hz sliders....it needs a large negative adjustment around idle b/c idle does not flow very much air through the MAF and therefore it's not exactly laminar flow. Non-Laminar flow through a large diameter MAF like the 2G has needs large adjustments in the low hz range.

In the same fuel tab you have adjusted the sliders up by ~ 8%. I am assuming that you did this in order to richen up the WB in th higher RPM....but the issue is it will richen up this amount wether it is at 0 psi or 40 psi it always gonna use 8%. This is no the way to richen it up (using MAFComp) and will give poor results.

For timing; since your LoadFactor is off so too will your timing be off as loadfactor is one of the axis in direct access. For example at 4902 RPM in the 4th gear log it says your load factor is 2.9 and your BoostEst is 30.8 psi but you say its 34 psi on the gauge so that is a difference of nearly 10%. That means your Loadfactor is actually higher than what the ECU thinks it is. If the ECU thinks it is lower in load factor it is going to use more aggressive timing from the DA table than what you actually want/set it too. Again, you MUST dial in the MAFComp to give the ECU an actual idea of where it is airflow wise or everything else is going to be off. That being said you have V3Lite and the loadfactor only goes to 2.6 so I am not sure what the ECU is doing outside those values.

#### Open Loop Thresholds and Narrowband O2 These were all set to 1.13 likely b/c you read on ECMLink that is how you do a cruise tune using CombinedFT and the tool they provide in DSMLink. You need to setup the narrowband simulation first in order for the fuel trims to work properly which THEN will use the Open Loop thresholds to stay in closed loop mode which THEN will give true fuel trims which THEN will allow the tool to work properly. Remember when i said the WB you installed does not tell the ECU what the AFR is at all? Well that is mostly true except when it comes to narrowband O2 simulation.

So how a normal O2 works is it either switches HI or LOW....or OFF and ON at around stoich of 14.7:1. Goes over 14.7 switches...goes below it switches the other way. The fuel trims in the ECU use this switch point to get it to sit at 14.7. So if you are cruising and your NBO2 sees you went over 14.7 (lean) it switches which the ECU sees and then starts adding fuel until it goes rich or under 14.7...at which point the NBO2 switches the other way and the ECU start pulling fuel until it goes rich...at which point the NBO2 switches the other way and the ECU start adding fuel again....and repeat over and over and over. The NBO2's only job is to switch back and forth, back and forth, back and forth telling the ECU on which side of 14.7 it is on so it can pull or add fuel...but you put in a WBO2 so the ECU has literally no idea where it is AFR wise...unless you turn on the NBO2 in Link which will instantly fix that problem.

By not setting up the NBO2 your ECU has no idea at all what side of 14.7 it is on when you are in closed loop mode....which you are in alot since you adjusted your Open loop thresholds so high. When you are using the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) to tune its gonna set it totally differently each time as the ECU has no idea what the fuel delievery should be. You must turn on the narrowbandO2 simulation in order to get your cruise and idle's in the 14.7 range. From the cruise log I can see that your AFR is all over the fcuking place....it must feel like a piece of shiiit and be popping and shiit like crazy. Turn on NBO2 and it will fix this instantly. Once turned on you need to reset your fuel trims b/c they'll be all messed up from not having a NBO2 signal. Then go for a cruise and it you will start getting real fuel trims at which point you can then use the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool to dial in your sliders.

Once all the MAFComp tables are dialed in from cruising make sure to reset the open loop thresholds back to stock BEFORE you do WOT tuning.






What you need to do (IN ORDER) to not blow anything else up and get normal AFR at idle and during cruising:
1. Input actual deadtimes by voltage for your injectors from FIC
2. Set global fuel % to around -53.8% based on base fuel pressure (disconnect vac line to the AFPR first) of 42.5 psi and global dead time to 730us
3. Setup the narrowband O2 simulation
4. Start car and once warm move MAFComp sliders 0Hz and 50Hz down until the WB matches the AFREst while also making sure that CombinedFT stays as close to 0 as possible (usually hovers within +/-2%)
5. Go for a cruise (leave the open loop thresholds where you set them) and use the MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool to dial in sliders. Then cruise and MAFComp adjust (combinedFT) tool again. Repeat a few times until they are barely being moved by the tool anymore. They can always be adjusted so once I get it to where I am moving them 1 or 2 "notches" I stop.
6. Reset open loop thresholds back to stock.
7. Set your boost level MUCH MUCH lower than 34 psi. Personally I would set to 20psi and then dial in the MAFComp first. 27PSI at 4200 RPM is the same to the MAF (1700HZ) as 20PSI at 6500RPM...but clearly 20 psi is safer for an uncalibrated ECU than 34 psi.
8. Go for a 3rd pull after 3rd gear pull and adjust the MAFComp slider until your WBO2 closely matches the AFREst.
9. Turn boost up 5 (or more PSI) and watch your log to see if the WB matches the AFREst still....if so turn up more....if not adjust sliders until it does....then turn up some more.
10. Profit.




One last and final thing that you need to take into account with E85.....it is not knock limited tuning. Meaning you can do whatever with timing (to a point) and it wont knock....however it will cause crazy cylinder pressure which is why you keep popping heads and frost plugs. E85 is torque limited tuning, meaning the only way you know that you are getting more power by advancing timing is by comparing torque output.

Wow this helps so much... It was all stated at a begginers level that I actually understand. I really have been trying to research everything and its all just spoken above my head.

You really don't know how much I appreciate that post really...

Just to clarify I didn't blow a freeze plug. I blew a coolant plug that I made to block off the lines to the oil cooler. It blew out due to exhaust gases in my coolant system.

I will get a new head (just to be safe) and gasket on with L19 (again just to be safe) and do exactly everything you said

If it wouldn't be to much trouble when the time comes would you mind if I PM'd you if I have a question regarding the tune at all? I think you just about explained it all. But you never know

I will also switch over to an evo8 maf. I think that should help? Or better yet maybe ill just upgrade to V3 full. Probably would end up costing the same.

This should make a world of difference and I will report back after I get it up and running again. Depending on funds this may not be until after winter but I'm going to try to get it done before then

 

[kmetiuk]

Wow this helps so much... It was all stated at a begginers level that I actually understand. I really have been trying to research everything and its all just spoken above my head.

You really don't know how much I appreciate that post really...

Just to clarify I didn't blow a freeze plug. I blew a coolant plug that I made to block off the lines to the oil cooler. It blew out due to exhaust gases in my coolant system.

I will get a new head (just to be safe) and gasket on with L19 (again just to be safe) and do exactly everything you said

If it wouldn't be to much trouble when the time comes would you mind if I PM'd you if I have a question regarding the tune at all? I think you just about explained it all. But you never know

I will also switch over to an evo8 maf. I think that should help? Or better yet maybe ill just upgrade to V3 full. Probably would end up costing the same.

This should make a world of difference and I will report back after I get it up and running again. Depending on funds this may not be until after winter but I'm going to try to get it done before then

Glad to help man. No problem at all. We all have to start somewhere and it took me a long ass time to figure out as much as I have (and I still have a ways to go). Feel free to PM me when tuning time comes and I'll do what I can to help. I'll be around for sure.

To be honest, I doubt you need new studs and new head. It really is your tune causing all the issues and its possible that you'll still push coolant until you fix that.

Are you pushing coolant at idle/cruise/low boost?

If your only pushing boost at high boost then personally, I'd just run your current setup and change the tune. I had stock head studs in and I was pushing coolant only above 15 psi, at the time I thought it was the head gsasket, rad cap, rad, etc, etc....until I finally figured out that the head was lifting due to OEM studs. Drove like that for several weeks.....went through ALOT of coolant until I figured it out. Swapped in ARP's and have had zero issues since. I've been running the same head gasket that I was pushing that coolant through even and it was fine. Gas does not need a lot of space to move through so it's not like there was a big hole in it. Just lifted a tiny tiny amount and gas can move and alleviate the high cylinder pressures.

Your log shows you went over 3000Hz so an EVO8 MAF is still going to be over run. 34 PSI is just a lot of boost period. The V3 full is probably the way to go, however I think the V3Lite ECU is adjusting it some how at that high of MAF flow so I think you'd be okay for now if you just drop your timing some. TBH just run the EVO 8 Mod 1 map's or the EVO 8 GSR maps and you'll be way safer and get better torque. You wont get every ounce of torque that is in your setup, but you will not lift the head and push coolant anymore either...plus you are not getting all the torque anyways since you are not tuning the timing tables on a dyno (E85 is torque limited not knock limited). Download and run the Ralliart Map ( http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/v3configs ) for now and you'll be a lot safer cylinder pressure wise and torque will more than likely be better than what it is currently tuned to. I personally run the EVO 8 Mod 1 map on my car with about 4-6 cells changed in the 4000-5000 RPM to get rid of some knock there. Every other cell is the same and it pulls fcuking hard. Since your on E85 the GSR map will prolly run awesome on yours...it wouldnt on mine...had to change so many cells that now I just start with the Mod 1 map and go from there. Also, if you really want to run that high of boost (or higher) you really want to run speed density at some point. Using your calibrated MAFComp table there is a tool in V3 that will auto setup your VE tables so switching is easy and you can run a fcuk ton more boost on it...like +45 psi


You don't need V3 full...but I'd recommend getting it. There are many features that I use and absolutely love. ( http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/prodcompare ) For example the elec boost control is the tits. So so awesome when its dialed in properly. I haven't used it yet but the Flex Fuel sensor support is sick too....it'll adjust your timing and fuel delivery based on the % of ethanol in your fuel. Some guys on the forums are saying that there local E85 is only showing 50-60% ethanol instead of the the 85% its advertised as... super cool feature.

To wrap up, you don't need L19's or a new head. You said the head was flat so its fine. L19's wont hold the head down any better if your super advanced timing is lifitng the head. ARP's should hold 34 psi all day long with a proper tune. Use your current gasket, current head, current ARP's, load the EVO8 mod 1 map, tune your MAFComp, deadtimes, etc, etc, and once dialed in THEN see if your pushing coolant at 25 psi of boost. If you are then ya, you need a new gasket (but again not studs or head those are fine still), if not turn up boost and see if the coolant is pushed at 34 psi.

TBH your setup is fine and nothing needs replacing until your tune is fixed. Once that's done if you are pushing coolant THEN replace stuff. Your throwing money away if you just buy a bunch of shiit without finding out what the problem is exactly first.

 

[jakk220]

Glad to help man. No problem at all. We all have to start somewhere and it took me a long ass time to figure out as much as I have (and I still have a ways to go). Feel free to PM me when tuning time comes and I'll do what I can to help. I'll be around for sure.

To be honest, I doubt you need new studs and new head. It really is your tune causing all the issues and its possible that you'll still push coolant until you fix that.

Are you pushing coolant at idle/cruise/low boost?

If your only pushing boost at high boost then personally, I'd just run your current setup and change the tune. I had stock head studs in and I was pushing coolant only above 15 psi, at the time I thought it was the head gsasket, rad cap, rad, etc, etc....until I finally figured out that the head was lifting due to OEM studs. Drove like that for several weeks.....went through ALOT of coolant until I figured it out. Swapped in ARP's and have had zero issues since. I've been running the same head gasket that I was pushing that coolant through even and it was fine. Gas does not need a lot of space to move through so it's not like there was a big hole in it. Just lifted a tiny tiny amount and gas can move and alleviate the high cylinder pressures.

Your log shows you went over 3000Hz so an EVO8 MAF is still going to be over run. 34 PSI is just a lot of boost period. The V3 full is probably the way to go, however I think the V3Lite ECU is adjusting it some how at that high of MAF flow so I think you'd be okay for now if you just drop your timing some. TBH just run the EVO 8 Mod 1 map's or the EVO 8 GSR maps and you'll be way safer and get better torque. You wont get every ounce of torque that is in your setup, but you will not lift the head and push coolant anymore either...plus you are not getting all the torque anyways since you are not tuning the timing tables on a dyno (E85 is torque limited not knock limited). Download and run the Ralliart Map ( http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/v3configs ) for now and you'll be a lot safer cylinder pressure wise and torque will more than likely be better than what it is currently tuned to. I personally run the EVO 8 Mod 1 map on my car with about 4-6 cells changed in the 4000-5000 RPM to get rid of some knock there. Every other cell is the same and it pulls fcuking hard. Since your on E85 the GSR map will prolly run awesome on yours...it wouldnt on mine...had to change so many cells that now I just start with the Mod 1 map and go from there. Also, if you really want to run that high of boost (or higher) you really want to run speed density at some point. Using your calibrated MAFComp table there is a tool in V3 that will auto setup your VE tables so switching is easy and you can run a fcuk ton more boost on it...like +45 psi


You don't need V3 full...but I'd recommend getting it. There are many features that I use and absolutely love. ( http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/prodcompare ) For example the elec boost control is the tits. So so awesome when its dialed in properly. I haven't used it yet but the Flex Fuel sensor support is sick too....it'll adjust your timing and fuel delivery based on the % of ethanol in your fuel. Some guys on the forums are saying that there local E85 is only showing 50-60% ethanol instead of the the 85% its advertised as... super cool feature.

To wrap up, you don't need L19's or a new head. You said the head was flat so its fine. L19's wont hold the head down any better if your super advanced timing is lifitng the head. ARP's should hold 34 psi all day long with a proper tune. Use your current gasket, current head, current ARP's, load the EVO8 mod 1 map, tune your MAFComp, deadtimes, etc, etc, and once dialed in THEN see if your pushing coolant at 25 psi of boost. If you are then ya, you need a new gasket (but again not studs or head those are fine still), if not turn up boost and see if the coolant is pushed at 34 psi.

TBH your setup is fine and nothing needs replacing until your tune is fixed. Once that's done if you are pushing coolant THEN replace stuff. Your throwing money away if you just buy a bunch of shiit without finding out what the problem is exactly first.

I'm like 99% sure it was only pushing coolant at high boost. If I babied it, it seemed to not push any. Although almost every time I get in the car it sees full boost at least once. Its a weekend warrior. If its coming out its to drive it how I intended it to be when I built it. Not pedal down everywhere. I don't abuse my car by any means. But when it gets driven it gets "driven" if you know what I mean .

I will at the very least replace the gasket and get some new regular ARP studs. Simply because a gasket is only 30 bucks and the studs have been torqued down like 4 times now. Its just a peace of mind thing. I don't like cutting corners. I will go ahead and re use the head I suppose. Ill give it another chance .

I wanted to run speed density. If considered it. But its intimidating to me. Being a novice tuner anyways. If I can get the thing dialed in with the MAF, I think I might try to make the switch over to SD. Baby steps haha.

The fact that the leak down test came back alright and I was still pushing coolant at high boost was a red flag to me. But I couldn't quite figure it out. It all makes sense now though. With what you're telling me I'm pretty confident it is tune related. You seem to think so as well so this is where I will start.

I will make the switch to V3 LITE and add the GSR map and go from there. I have a much better idea of what I need to do now.

If you are interested I would even be willing to pay you to "assist" with my tune remotely. I am ambitious about learning so I want to give it a shot. But if I get severely stuck and need someone to do some slight tweaking for me, I have no problem throwing a little money out there to make you helping me adjust things worth your time. Especially since you have been helping me this much already.

Thanks again man. Ill be tearing into it hopefully here in the next week or so and ordering the few small things I need. I will definitely be in touch once its running to the point I can tune it again.

 

[kmetiuk]

ARP can be reused again and again. The OEM bolts are torque to yield types. That is why people switch to ARP head studs...you just put em in once and you dont have to swap em again. Your ARP's are fine.

Get a new head gasket for piece of mind. That i totally understand. Head gaskets are cheap so why not while your in there.

But if you havent ripped it apart yet I'd just tune it and see what happens. Worse case is you push some coolant again at low boost and you know for sure your gasket is toast....but I'm betting its fine for now. Switch it out after you get a decent tune then if you do something naughty while your tuning your not frying your new gasket. Just my 2 cents there....either way will be fine.

I dont mind helping man, ive taken a lot form these forums over the last 6 years so I figure its time to contribute back in. You don't have to pay me, just pay it forward in a few years when you come across someone in the a tough spot.

I'll do what I can remotely for sure.

 

[jakk220]

ARP can be reused again and again. The OEM bolts are torque to yield types. That is why people switch to ARP head studs...you just put em in once and you dont have to swap em again. Your ARP's are fine.

Get a new head gasket for piece of mind. That i totally understand. Head gaskets are cheap so why not while your in there.

But if you havent ripped it apart yet I'd just tune it and see what happens. Worse case is you push some coolant again at low boost and you know for sure your gasket is toast....but I'm betting its fine for now. Switch it out after you get a decent tune then if you do something naughty while your tuning your not frying your new gasket. Just my 2 cents there....either way will be fine.

I dont mind helping man, ive taken a lot form these forums over the last 6 years so I figure its time to contribute back in. You don't have to pay me, just pay it forward in a few years when you come across someone in the a tough spot.

I'll do what I can remotely for sure.

Thanks man I appreciate it. I got it all torn apart today. Gasket was blown and bent. Ill post up a pic soon. My phone is not cooperating.

 

[jakk220]

Here is the blown gasket. Any ideas what caused the failure? I assume it was the tune. Oil had coolant in it. Only cylinder 1 had this issue. There was coolant sitting in the cylinder.