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PTE 6466 vs Xona 9569S

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They are around. And so is video. My name is all over the internet. I even ran an hx52 on my 4g61 originally.

I do not have any favorites as I am not willing to spend large amounts of money for someone’s name. Xona would be at the bottom of the list however.
 
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Like I have been saying to everyone. Those turbos are just expensive paperweights. Sit down and look at what class racers(think World Cup finals type cars) are running. You will see very few people running the Xona stuff.
Much of that is because Precision sponsors the events, and then makes the only turbo that fits a specific size frame...like the 6280 which is basically a class-cheater using a 76mm compressor with the inducer cut down to 62mm in front of the MWE groove.
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^ I serviced a S400-based diesel pulling turbo locally probably 7-8 years ago that was cut back to 64mm the same way, so that's not new technology by any means.

We saw an influx of other brands like Apex on people's cars at WCF this year because shops are getting fed up with their $4000 Precision 85 turbos ejecting turbine heads; although Precision will likely respond by banning compressors that aren't a thru-bore design just to stop Apex from cleaning up at the event Precision sponsors so they can continue to build one-off class-legal overpriced "cutting-edge" garbage turbochargers, and racers will keep buying them if they want a chance at winning in a given class.
 
I can agree to that. That is why I personally run old diesel turbos. I can build an entire car for $4,000 even still today. I have nothing against precision or xona but, for an average guy like me, whatever “edge” the provide, it isn’t within my budget.
 
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I did find it strange that FP/XR put out a strange example of how the uhf is better than previous gen on their website. Does FP not have enough resources to show a before and after on the same car and setup? Shit, all you have to do is ask a DSMer or evo guy and they'd put it on their car for free. Yet, they used this oddball example:
"
Here is a note from Robert about the performance of this UHF Green on the race car shown in the video above-

"There are 2 dyno graphs of Kerns car.

One is the current FP Green UHF, the other is the same FP Green UHF laid on top of last years combination with a FPRed model.

Your first thought might be "holdup, that new Green spools up the same as that Red and doesnt make the same peak power"

Well, last season the engine was a built long rod 2.4 with 10.5:1 CR and that dyno graph is 22psi. This season the engine is a stock 2.0 bottom end and the turbo comes on so fast that we are actually having to open the gate early to keep the torque below the failure level on the stock connecting rods! So we have almost the same power and response this year with a stock engine and FPGreenUHF turbo as we did last year with a built long rod 2.4 with 10.5CR and a bigger turbocharger."

Attention: All Forced Performance turbochargers are built to order to your exact specifications and should not be considered on the shelf ready to ship unless specifically noted on the work order. Build times vary by model of turbo and options of said turbocharger, therefore we cannot guarantee a delivery date or ETA."
 
I don’t mind FP Turbos but I’ve never thought they were worth the premium they charge. Same with precision TBH.
FP shines on the “bolt on” market with the proof to back that class, can’t speak on the Xona stuff as I have no hands on with it. They’re the only ones still offering turbochargers that can make power in a bolt on configuration out of the box and have a big backing from the community, nowhere else is that easily obtainable. Sure there’s the BEP housings for the Holset’s and the hx35 worked well in that configuration (I was never blown away by the hx40 in the .55 housing) but the problem is that housing is no longer available new, so you factor in buying a $300 used turbine housing, a $150 super core, then the amount to have it serviced you’re talking almost brand new FP money. Same with the older Garrett based Precision stuff from before it was all over priced trash, heavy hitting bolt ons that were reliable but same issue as running a Holset in a bolt on housing in the year 2022, have to actually find the turbo then 9 times out of 10 have it serviced landing you just about at new FP price. Don’t get me wrong, I love Holsets and some of the old bolt on PTE stuff, but ultimately FP’s most modern bolt on stuff is going to outperform all of it (in bolt on config that is).

That’s where that premium comes from. However they’re not for me, if I ever decide to stop messing with the stock frame bolt on stuff I’ll simply go back to a t3 set up and have Justin do an hx40 and be done, but others in our community still go after the bolt on stuff and FP is the only ones in that market so they get their price. As far as the Xona stuff goes, out of the big DSM crowd we have here in shootout country (Ohio) I’ve never had my hands on one or seen one use or on the dyno or anything to get any kind of idea on them.
 
Those bolt on jobs don’t work that well though. Especially at altitude. Back pressure problems and under perform like you wouldn’t believe. Racing at sea level and at 6000ft are not the same. And that goes for turbos across the board.
 
Those bolt on jobs don’t work that well though. Especially at altitude. Back pressure problems and under perform like you wouldn’t believe. Racing at sea level and at 6000ft are not the same. And that goes for turbos across the board.
Oh I’m sure, I’m saying in comparison to other “bolt on” options. It’s like I said, even here in flat ol Ohio if I ever decide I want that kind of power again I’d switch back to a t3 set up before I’d go chasing it that route. That’s not to knock them either but to me by the time you buy everything you need to make it work well you’re not saving anything over a t3 or t4 set up and it’s not “bolt on” enough at that point to be much more convenient, it’s just simply why they sell them and they do outperform for the most part and are much easier to obtain than anything else bolt on is the selling point for many is what I was saying. I get a bunch of feathers ruffled when I say it but to me the black is massively over rated, while yes it’s made 600 before for some people, and yes we know people have gone fast with it (we ALL know one person went 8s on it as anytime it’s brought up that gets referenced), I’ve seen a few cars tuned with one personally that struggled to hit 450 for most users resulting in one hell of a boring bolt on turbo. I’ve driven 2 cars with the black in an 8cm housing and my personal s363sxe in a .82ar t3 housing lit off faster as well as my other buddies hx40 in a .70ar open t3 housing was better spool and response, along with seeming to pull harder up top. Can’t speak on the reliability of it but the things a bore in my opinion and easier much more efficient ways to make the power very few have made with it. That’s not to knock FP/Xona as a company as I’ve seen plenty of good from them but that specific turbo that was hyped up for years to me isn’t worth it over a simple t3 set up.
 
@biglady112 to get more back on topic, I did however come across a 9 year old thread the other day where someone machined a .70ar bep t3 housing to fit the hx52 turbine wheel. User made around 620 on a Mustang dyno which to me is hx40 territory, but that was with 91 octane pump gas and meth injection. Seemed a bit choked out but for the sake of science I’d like to see the hx52 in something like a .82 or .85ar open housing in comparison to the turbos named in this thread. The way I look at it a local here made that kind of power on straight 93 octane with no meth on a Mustang dyno with a 6466 in a .82ar t3 housing (then over 700 right after on 110 octane cam 2), 2.3 stroker at the time just like that car mentioned in that thread. While horsepower number alone doesn’t tell us what the power and torque curve would be between the 2 and spool especially being 2 different cars in 2 different places, it does confirm the hx52 very well could be a competitor at a much more budget minded price like you suggested. Though I don’t see anyone machining a housing anytime soon for sake of comparison, but definitely interesting none the less.
 
The HX52 is still a small shaft turbo. Even with the the large Holset housing, I still ended up snapping the turbine shaft on two different occasions over spinning them. That is when I started using back pressure to tune cars. My only experience is at altitude but, the 6466 with the .82 Vband housing definitely spools faster. 2.0 vs 2.0. Not much, but it does. I made 800.3whp 556tq@44psi through a TH400. Looking back I should have stopped at 775whp as it took a lot of timing to get to 800.

We made 830whp@38psi on a fwd, manual trans 4g63 setup. That turbo is closer to a gt42 sized turbo. Moving to a small turbine housing is the wrong answer.
 
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Here is a video of my HX52 maxed out. Dyno graphs shown somewhere in there.

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Here is a fwd, 2.0, manual trans hx52 I was a part of for a very long time. At altitude of course.

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Here’s an update but with questions. I just removed my old .82 AR 6466 and replaced it with a .85AR xona 9569S. 6466 made 50 lbs of boost with the wastegate dUty cycle 45% ramping to 100% by the end of third. Now that im running the 9569S (67.9 comp ind, 69mm turbine exd) im finding that with the wastegate capped 100% I can only make 48 psi tapering to 44 by redline. Car does make slightly more power but also spools almost 1000 rpm later. The only thing changed on the setup was the turbo. EMAP dropped with the new setup from 1.5 to 1.4. Have any theories on why I cant make any more boost? Seems somewhat far fetched that the turbo increased engine efficiency enough that the car only makes 48 lbs and still maxes out the 9569S turbo thats much larger than the old one. EGTs are the same as before. Timing dropped .6° roughly across the entire powerband. Ive also played with cam timing to find no major improvement with spool characteristics. Set up before was 0 exh -2 int. Currently at -2 exh +1.5 int

Again. Everything else is the same and I only removed the turbo to swap it. I pressure tested intake and exhaust side just to be sure I wasnt springing a leak anywhere or something silly.
Great detailed write up... but this almost feels predictable... 6466 vs 8264s would be a more direct comparison and should reveal if that turbine tech is worth the switch.
 
I'm not sure if this helps, but testing a XR 8064S vs 3586HTA, I have some data. Same size turbine wheel, in fact I installed both turbos in the same ~.82 T3 housing. Back pressure dropped from 1.4:1 to 1.2:1. There is a perceptible increase in lag on the 2 step but nothing that matters to me. My car is not very sensitive to back pressure but still picked up 2 tenths and 4-5 mph in the quarter. This is a 62.9mm so ~1mm bigger on compressor. The 3586 went 8.3x in the quarter without nitrous for me. This turbo has gone 8.12 without nitrous. Very quick IMO for a real 62mm turbo (not a cut down cheater turbo). DA was 3200 feet so not the best air. It made 813 whp no nitrous on a Mainline Pro Hub dyno (948 with a 100 shot and 4.96 at 140 in the 8th (vs 5.12 at 137). I have to say I like the UHF turbine for my application.
 
Almost afraid to ask here, but what are y’all’s thoughts on the FP Zero Ball Bearing. That’s the turbo I’ve been targeting but would obviously like more education before I decide which way to go. 10cm housing. Was thinking pairing it with Morrison Fab stock replacement header. I won’t be chasing tenths of seconds on the track just want something that will walk V-8’s on the long back roads. Was looking for best bolt on app as I have no experience with turbos and fab work yet.
 
Almost afraid to ask here, but what are y’all’s thoughts on the FP Zero Ball Bearing. That’s the turbo I’ve been targeting but would obviously like more education before I decide which way to go. 10cm housing. Was thinking pairing it with Morrison Fab stock replacement header. I won’t be chasing tenths of seconds on the track just want something that will walk V-8’s on the long back roads. Was looking for best bolt on app as I have no experience with turbos and fab work yet.
At that point go with a t3 set up and keep all your options open. At the cost of the zero and the Morrison fab set up you would be just as involved as going with any number of t3 flanged turbos that are just as capable or more capable than the zero and for as well as Morrison does their t3 manifolds and hot parts I’ll tell you from experience it will bolt on just as well as any bolt on set up.
 
At that point go with a t3 set up and keep all your options open. At the cost of the zero and the Morrison fab set up you would be just as involved as going with any number of t3 flanged turbos that are just as capable or more capable than the zero and for as well as Morrison does their t3 manifolds and hot parts I’ll tell you from experience it will bolt on just as well as any bolt on set up.
Don’t these setups take up more room? Was also trying to minimize real estate issues. I don’t mind spending a little more if in the end it’s easier to setup. I should also say it’ll be a street car still and in Florida so I have to be able to keep AC or it’ll never get driven.
 
Don’t these setups take up more room? Was also trying to minimize real estate issues. I don’t mind spending a little more if in the end it’s easier to setup. I should also say it’ll be a street car still and in Florida so I have to be able to keep AC or it’ll never get driven.
I can’t speak on AC, hasn’t been on my car in 9 years, however I will say even with a massive Borg Warner s300 compressor cover the Morrison’s made sure of good fitment to where I still had plenty of room for slim fans and no denting of my water pipe. I don’t see AC having been an issue on that set up being how the lines are routed had I chose to put it back on and the cover was indeed massive on the s363 compared to other turbos in its class. If you were to opt for something from Xona or PTE in a t3 frame keep in mind they’re much more compact than the industrial diesel stuff like Borg and Holset so you have that going for you too where you’re not really sacrificing any space over a bolt on set up that will limit you. Also, when working with Morrison Fab they will ask questions about your set up and what accessories you’re keeping and they won’t sell you something that won’t fit that requirement. Not telling you how to live by any means but the zero is more designed with fitting certain class requirements (ex stock appearing at the shootout) while providing the same bang as the t3 framed stuff, not so much with space conservation in mind. If it was me and I was building a street car with your described purpose in mind I wouldn’t limit myself with bolt on stuff, not to mention it’s not at all knocking their bolt on manifold as they have the proof behind it but even going with the Zero that manifold is designed to get every last bit out of a stock flanged turbo in a race application. You’d be spending beyond potent t3 set up money at that point just to stay “bolt on” when in reality from the butt dyno you’d feel no difference with the Zero mounted to a ported 2g/evo 3 manifold or FP race manifold. My advice is go with one of their t3 manifold and hot parts kits to keep your options open.
 
MF sales a compact hot parts kit if you're worried about room. Mine is a regular-sized kit. Having gone through the decision of staying stock-frame or not I would move away from stock-frame stuff. First off, v-band stuff just looks much better if that's what you're into. Second, they're much easier to work. I can take my turbo off in 5 minutes. With stock-frame, it takes a lot longer due to weird downpipes and all the extra bolts. Third, more turbos/turbine housings to choose from.

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I should also say it’ll be a street car still and in Florida so I have to be able to keep AC or it’ll never get driven.
On the Morrison pages for the "DSM Small Runner T3 Manifold and Hot Parts" and the "DSM Small Runner Xona V-band Manifold and Hot Parts" it says "Maintains all OEM accessories such as A/C and power steering".

But I would want to know a lot more details before getting started in that direction.

To keep the AC you have to keep the alternator in the stock position (and make a heat shield for it probably), you need 2 fans (which you would anyway), and of course you need to keep the AC condenser in place.

I would want to know which fans exactly and where they would go.

The good slim fans are the Spal fans that have an overall thickness of 62.1mm per the Spal drawings. Both pusher and puller. Those are being used by me, Vegas, Marty, and lots of people. There are thinner Spals that are only 51.1mm OA thickness and they are quite a bit weaker, so I wouldn't want to have to use those.

The Xona turbos (for example) in your size range are available with the X2R compressor housing which is nice and small. Same size as what I have on my car, I think. With that I bet the passenger side fan could be a puller (behind the radiator). Like on my car.

On the Driver side, that's where there's more details to sort out. The fan on that side might have to be a Pusher, in front of the radiator. With the condenser there I don't know how much room that leaves you for a fan that is 62.1 mm thick. On my car with no condenser I have 4.3" about from the back of the intercooler to the front of the radiator core, measured back from the top of the intercooler.

I wouldn't want to have to do what Morrison calls the "1g Radiator Mount Modification" which they have a Technical page for. I don't think you would have to. But I'd want to be sure. If you are comfortable doing that type of mod then it probably would be ok.

Then of course there is the oil cooler to think about, which normally is up there somewhere. If you even want to have one.
 
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On the Morrison pages for the "DSM Small Runner T3 Manifold and Hot Parts" and the "DSM Small Runner Xona V-band Manifold and Hot Parts" it says "Maintains all OEM accessories such as A/C and power steering".

But I would want to know a lot more details before getting started in that direction.

To keep the AC you have to keep the alternator in the stock position (and make a heat shield for it probably), you need 2 fans (which you would anyway), and of course you need to keep the AC condenser in place.

I would want to know which fans exactly and where they would go.

The good slim fans are the Spal fans that have an overall thickness of 62.1mm per the Spal drawings. Both pusher and puller. Those are being used by me, Vegas, Marty, and lots of people. There are thinner Spals that are only 51.1mm OA thickness and they are quite a bit weaker, so I wouldn't want to have to use those.

The Xona turbos (for example) in your size range are available with the X2R compressor housing which is nice and small. Same size as what I have on my car, I think. With that I bet the passenger side fan could be a puller (behind the radiator). Like on my car.

On the Driver side, that's where there's more details to sort out. The fan on that side might have to be a Pusher, in front of the radiator. With the condenser there I don't know how much room that leaves you for a fan that is 62.1 mm thick. On my car with no condenser I have 4.3" about from the back of the intercooler to the front of the radiator core, measured back from the top of the intercooler.

I wouldn't want to have to do what Morrison calls the "1g Radiator Mount Modification" which they have a Technical page for. I don't think you would have to. But I'd want to be sure. If you are comfortable doing that type of mod then it probably would be ok.

Then of course there is the oil cooler to think about, which normally is up there somewhere. If you even want to have one.
My large runner t3 set up with the s300 cover fit without moving the radiator and keeping the alternator in the stock position (I actually had it relocated and moved it back). I had 2 slim fans as pullers on the turbo side as well. Picture of my old set up below straight from their site to give an idea of fitment. The fact they pull that off is astounding.

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