1G Pro Stop Pads & Rotors: Z23 vs. Z26?

[XC92]

All 4 pads and rotors on my '92 Talon TSi AWD need to be replaced fairly soon, and I was going to go with Pro Stop kits. The cheapo service station generic ones now on the car are still serviceable, but the rotors need to be turned and stopping power isn't what it should be, so I figured it's not that expensive an upgrade since I'll replace them myself.

I was going to go with their "daily driver" kit, the Z23, which has the same pad material as the "performance" Z26, but with rubber shims to make them quieter, compared to the steel ones on the Z26, to better dissipate heat during extensive use under hard braking. But my Talon is stock, putting out no more than 200HP, with no near-term plans to upgrade this, and I don't race or drive too aggressively, so I'd probably be well-served by the Z23.

Thing is, I was on Amazon the other day, browsing through Talon-related parts, and saw that they had the rear Z26 kit for around $60, where it usually goes for around $150-$160. It was new and the current model. I didn't want to look a gift pad and rotor set in the mouth so I ordered it, and it arrives tomorrow. Assuming that it's new, in good condition and nothing seems off, I'll install it on the car.

However, I'm wondering if I now need to get a Z26 kit for the front too, even though I was all set to go with the Z23. Braking power should be the same with the Z23's, but the shims would be different, with perhaps a bit more noise from the rear, and VERY slightly more risk of brake failure from the front, which is where most of the braking is happening anyway, and thus more quiet too.

Should I match the fronts to the rears? Or would I be ok with Z23's in the front? Probably doesn't matter that much, I'm guessing. The difference is around $30. I'm actually more concerned about noise vs. brake fade than the price difference.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

Here is what the manufacturer has to say:
https://www.powerstop.com/powerstop-brake-pad-options/

 

[XC92]

Well yeah but I was hoping for some personal experience-based advice. Makers are going to say whatever they think will sell the most units, so long as it's legal and doesn't expose them to liability suits.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

To your point, a person online has zero liability. You have to assume that the person online giving advice has used both setups and has their braking system regularly maintained (calipers in good shape, regular fluid flushes, etc.). In terms of braking setups, members whom compete in motorsports (Autocross, HPDE, Time trials, etc.) would be your best bet to get more opinions about specific pad/rotor setups, but wouldn't equate well to non-track conditions. They would also be more likely to regularly service other parts of the braking system. A manufacturer would at least have consistent data (testing under same conditions) to develop different pad compounds for different applications. It is in their best interest to be as accurate as possible with their product offerings. At least with a manufacturer, you know what the bias is.

Personally in your case, I would stick with the same setup both front and rear being mostly for street use. While I don't have experience with the specific setup you're looking at, I have experience mixing compounds for road course use. For street use, I use the same pad compound on all four corners.

 

[XC92]

This all makes sense, but companies figured out long ago that you can often increase profits by selling "step up" parts to people who don't really need them, by appealing to their vanity and egos and vulnerability to social pressure.

This is how Apple convinces people to buy a new $1000 iPhone every year, which almost no one really needs. Car makers obviously do this, with ads trying to convince you that only a $40,000 SUV can get you to that special off-road spot that overlooks a gorgeous mountain view when a $20,000 one can get you there as well just as quickly and safely (if not quite as luxuriously).

So I'm pretty sure that major car parts makers (as opposed to niche ones catering to the tuning set such as here) do this as well. Buy these brakes and you'll be driving like the pros! Upgrade to these tires and you'll be the envy of all your friends and giving Kyle Petty a run for his money!

The Z26's are promoted as being for "performance" and "muscle" cars, which some DSMs clearly are, but not all. Mine's kind of on the borderline, top of the line stock but way underpowered compared to heavily modded DSMs let alone Corvettes, Porsches and Camaros. It also depends on the kind of driving one does.

I'm sensing some marketing games going on here, no more than any other parts maker would, but that the people who really need and would most benefit from the Z26's are people who own cars that do well over 200HP AND drive them aggressively or race them. I'm neither, and the Z23's would probably be just fine for my car and driving needs. But I just wanted to get some real-world feedback from people who've used either pad. And I wouldn't even have asked had I not lucked out and gotten a set of new rear Z26's for $100 off.

I'll probably do as you advise and get Z26's for the front, even though the Z23's are probably perfectly fine for my car and needs. They're only $30 more. I just hope they're not too noisy. If they are I can also swap them out for Z23 pads, which are around $40.

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

This all makes sense, but companies figured out long ago that you can often increase profits by selling "step up" parts to people who don't really need them, by appealing to their vanity and egos and vulnerability to social pressure.

This is how Apple convinces people to buy a new $1000 iPhone every year, which almost no one really needs. Car makers obviously do this, with ads trying to convince you that only a $40,000 SUV can get you to that special off-road spot that overlooks a gorgeous mountain view when a $20,000 one can get you there as well just as quickly and safely (if not quite as luxuriously).

So I'm pretty sure that major car parts makers (as opposed to niche ones catering to the tuning set such as here) do this as well. Buy these brakes and you'll be driving like the pros! Upgrade to these tires and you'll be the envy of all your friends and giving Kyle Petty a run for his money!

The Z26's are promoted as being for "performance" and "muscle" cars, which some DSMs clearly are, but not all. Mine's kind of on the borderline, top of the line stock but way underpowered compared to heavily modded DSMs let alone Corvettes, Porsches and Camaros. It also depends on the kind of driving one does.

I'm sensing some marketing games going on here, no more than any other parts maker would, but that the people who really need and would most benefit from the Z26's are people who own cars that do well over 200HP AND drive them aggressively or race them. I'm neither, and the Z23's would probably be just fine for my car and driving needs. But I just wanted to get some real-world feedback from people who've used either pad. And I wouldn't even have asked had I not lucked out and gotten a set of new rear Z26's for $100 off.

I'll probably do as you advise and get Z26's for the front, even though the Z23's are probably perfectly fine for my car and needs. They're only $30 more. I just hope they're not too noisy. If they are I can also swap them out for Z23 pads, which are around $40.

Well, I just checked the manufacturer's spec for the Z26, and it states "noise-free". Assuming they are installed correctly, you shouldn't have any problems with your selection.

 

[steve]

I cheaped out and bought autozone carbon metallic pads, I've changed them several times when they wear out every couple of years. After the first time the replacements were free and considering how long I've done that the whole cost was basicly free.

They are fine for daily use but perhaps a bit dusty but no worse than the Porterfield Pads I got from RRE when I first swapped in the dual piston calipers.

I wouldn't use them on the track but I never wished for more pad on the street.
Just get good quality rotors, don't fall for slotted or drilled. You want good metal over fancy looks.

The brake fluid gets flushed with each pad change cause I empty the res before I start and fill with fresh and then bleed the lines when I'm done with the pads.

 

[XC92]

Well, I just checked the manufacturer's spec for the Z26, and it states "noise-free". Assuming they are installed correctly, you shouldn't have any problems with your selection.

And that's the thing, both use the same exact pad material so absent brake fade issues they should stop exactly the same, and both are described as low or no noise. But one has rubber and the other steel shims, so there's got to be SOME noise difference. Probably not enough to matter. I'm overthinking this, as usual. I'll get the Z26's and see how I like them.

I cheaped out and bought autozone carbon metallic pads, I've changed them several times when they wear out every couple of years. After the first time the replacements were free and considering how long I've done that the whole cost was basicly free.

They are fine for daily use but perhaps a bit dusty but no worse than the Porterfield Pads I got from RRE when I first swapped in the dual piston calipers.

I wouldn't use them on the track but I never wished for more pad on the street.
Just get good quality rotors, don't fall for slotted or drilled. You want good metal over fancy looks.

The brake fluid gets flushed with each pad change cause I empty the res before I start and fill with fresh and then bleed the lines when I'm done with the pads.

That's what I do on pad replacement, flush and bleed the fluid, although I don't empty the reservoir. I just dump the new on top of the old stuff and the latter gets flushed out eventually and everything's clear.

I read somewhere that you don't want the MC piston to dry out or allow air into any odd passages, plus I have ABS and you don't want air there. This makes sure that there's always fluid throughout the system.

And, alas, these are both drilled AND slotted, but at $60 for the set the worst that happens is that I have to replace them early and still save money. I doubt I'd subject them to enough heat to warp or crack them. If I sense poor braking, I'll figure it out then and find a solution.

I've also decided to get all new hoses. I believe I need 8, 2 for each caliper, one inner and one outer. And I rebuilt all 4 calipers last summer, new seals, boots & grease, took everything apart and cleaned them nicely, caliper paint, the works. Once the new pads & rotors are on, the entire brake system other than the MC, lines, prop valve and reservoir will be new. Hopefully they've still good.

 

[steve]

I've also decided to get all new hoses.

In retrospect switching to stainless braided teflon hoses likely made the most noticeable difference. I did that at the same time as I swapped the calipers so it's hard to tell. Together it was the best upgrade for $ spent. The original brakes were terrible.

 

[XC92]

Hmm, thanks. I was going to get whatever was recommended at RockAuto but I'll look into these types. If I'm going to restore it I might as well go all-out. It'll probably end up being a better car than it was when I bought it. Scary. It's already driving really nicely and I've still got a lot to do.

 

[steve]

It'll probably end up being a better car than it was when I bought it.

Isn't that the goal?

 

[XC92]

Well, for most folks here, sure, this being a tuning/racing-oriented site. But I'm just trying to fix what's broken and restore it to more or less stock, but with some relatively minor but noticeable upgrades, e.g. bushings, brakes, clutch, etc., that all together are likely to result in a nicer car than the one I bought, even though that wasn't my original goal. As you may have noticed I'm not typical of most here.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I use the Power Stop kits on my cars and like them. I switched over to dual piston calipers and got the drilled/slotted rotors, but I race my car, and the shut down area isn't the longest. Those setups work for me. I have used the Power Stop KC798A26 on one car the K798 kit on another and the KCOE798A on the DD White GSX. I have converted all over to dual piston calipers and in the "end" (those kits are no longer available, they had powder coated calipers and drilled/slotted rotors along with pads), I couldn't get 1g calipers anymore so I did the 2g conversion and it was easy. If you ever decide to do that, just hit me up and I can tell you just what you need to do it.

 

[XC92]

I use the Power Stop kits on my cars and like them. I switched over to dual piston calipers and got the drilled/slotted rotors, but I race my car, and the shut down area isn't the longest. Those setups work for me. I have used the Power Stop KC798A26 on one car the K798 kit on another and the KCOE798A on the DD White GSX. I have converted all over to dual piston calipers and in the "end" (those kits are no longer available, they had powder coated calipers and drilled/slotted rotors along with pads), I couldn't get 1g calipers anymore so I did the 2g conversion and it was easy. If you ever decide to do that, just hit me up and I can tell you just what you need to do it.

I just completely rebuilt all 4 stock calipers so I'm good for now. Took them all completely apart, stripped them all to the bare metal, painted them with caliper paint, put in new seals, boots and rings, and a new piston with one of the fronts, and they're good as new.

However I didn't also replace the pads and rotors on any of the wheels, not because I didn't intend to but because I had other, more pressing repairs and upgrades to make and the existing ones were "good enough" for the occasional relatively short drives on local streets. I did clean them up as best I could.

I have to admit that braking isn't as strong as it should be, kind of mushy and prolonged, and not safe for high speed driving, which is why I haven't driven the car on the highway yet, and won't until full braking power is restored.

I assume that partly this was due to old pads and rotors. The pads still have lots of friction material on them but I'm guessing that they're harder than they used to be due to aging effects. And the rotors, while also more than thick enough to be safe, weren't resurfaced, since I figured why bother if I'm replacing both.

But old hoses might also be to blame, so I'll get new ones as well. I understand that the ones to get as SS braided ones, right?

I've flushed the old fluid and bled the system, and will do it again when I'm done with all these replacements. The MC and lines seem fine, no leaks at all. I can only hope that the prop value is working properly although I don't know how to test it.

Anything else I need to do, short of getting twin piston calipers for the front? Braking was never a big issue back when the car was last operable so I suspect that I won't really need them for the kind of driving I do and the kind of power my Talon puts out, being mostly stock.

If I do get the twin pistons, I assume I'd have no problem selling the stock calipers given how hard they are to find? What would they go for, newly and fully rebuilt?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I had the front lines on my old 1967 Camaro deteriorate on the INSIDE and reduced the size of the line so much that it wouldn't release the brake so I say replace those old hoses (they may even SWELL under pressure, who knows). After that you will have replaced just about anything that can go bad.

 

[steve]

The front brakes on my car were an issue from day one off the dealer's lot.

I'd get brake fade in those situations where you had to stop like a deer jumping out on the highway or some mentally challenged driver pulling out of a parking lot. The original single piston pads and rotors wouldn't last more then 20k miles before the brakes would start pulsating. The dealership was great about replacing them but I wish I'd known about the change made in '93 to the dual piston calipers and larger rotors. I waited several more years before making the change but what a difference. No more fade, no more "warpage", great pedal feel and easy to modulate (I don't have ABS due to it being a 91 with rear LSD).

I suppose with aggressive pads you could get the stock single piston front brakes to work better but there is no point. The factory made the change to the AWD cars because it needed to.

 

[XC92]

Well if I get good braking with the rebuilt single pistons by upgrading the pads, rotors and hoses then I should be ok. If all that fails to give me good braking, then I'll strongly consider upgrading to the duals. But I don't recall braking ever being a serious problem when I drove the car regularly and the pads and rotors were in good shape, but then I'm not the most aggressive driver out there.

I had the front lines on my old 1967 Camaro deteriorate on the INSIDE and reduced the size of the line so much that it wouldn't release the brake so I say replace those old hoses (they may even SWELL under pressure, who knows). After that you will have replaced just about anything that can go bad.

I didn't realize that they sometimes also go bad internally so they don't need to bulge to need replacing. Thanks. I'll definitely replace all 8. Maybe it's the main reason I'm not getting good braking.