Plymouth Laser RS Turbo

[pauleyman]

See now you're just making me mad. My car has been down 4 years.
Great job so far.

 

[Tina94]

See now you're just making me mad. My car has been down 4 years.
Great job so far.

Why’s that? And thanks

 

[pauleyman]

Why’s that? And thanks

I'm just teasing. Build is coming along nicely.

 

[Tina94]

I'm just teasing. Build is coming along nicely.

I meant why’s your car been down so long?

 

[wparks]

Great job scraping the Wisconsin rust off of those parts- looking nice. About the exhaust manifold issues- I assume you are going to fully pull the turbo? Good to check for play in the shaft, and to see if the exhaust turbine is scraping the inside of the cast housing- a very common problem on these when they wear out.

If you are able, a nice upgrade is to replace your stock 1G exhaust manifold with a 2G- it's a much better casting, less prone to cracks, and I think the runners are somewhat bigger. (The manifold shown in the photo is a 2G) Either way, while you are in there it's nice to use a die grinder and carbide burr to remove the obtrusive ring lip in the casting for the sealing ring between the manifold and turbo exhaust housing, and knock down the center partition somewhat. There is a picture of what mine looked like after I did that.

In addition to replacing the long stud in the turbo casting with a bolt, another simple mod that made my life easier was to use a cutoff wheel to remove the tab from the engine mount bracket that is directly above the right most corner of the manifold. (circled in the manifold photo). It's nice in allowing you to slide the exhaust manifold in and out without removing the turbo or the studs in the head. Take lots of care with the banjo bolts for oil and coolant around the turbo cartridge- they are hollow and fragile, and the copper washers love to get away.

Keep up the great work! It's fun to watch your progress.

I forgot to mention- switching to the 2G oxygen sensor manifold is also a nice upgrade- notice the position of my O2 sensor is further forward- The 2G housing moves the sensor out of the main exhaust stream over towards the waste gate output, reducing turbulence. I have several extra exhaust manifold to turbo bolts if you need one to replace that stud, and also have a 2G manifold I was going to do the same lip procedure on and ebay. Send me a private message if you are interested.

 

[Tina94]

Great job scraping the Wisconsin rust off of those parts- looking nice. About the exhaust manifold issues- I assume you are going to fully pull the turbo? Good to check for play in the shaft, and to see if the exhaust turbine is scraping the inside of the cast housing- a very common problem on these when they wear out.

If you are able, a nice upgrade is to replace your stock 1G exhaust manifold with a 2G- it's a much better casting, less prone to cracks, and I think the runners are somewhat bigger. (The manifold shown in the photo is a 2G) Either way, while you are in there it's nice to use a die grinder and carbide burr to remove the obtrusive ring lip in the casting for the sealing ring between the manifold and turbo exhaust housing, and knock down the center partition somewhat. There is a picture of what mine looked like after I did that.

In addition to replacing the long stud in the turbo casting with a bolt, another simple mod that made my life easier was to use a cutoff wheel to remove the tab from the engine mount bracket that is directly above the right most corner of the manifold. (circled in the manifold photo). It's nice in allowing you to slide the exhaust manifold in and out without removing the turbo or the studs in the head. Take lots of care with the banjo bolts for oil and coolant around the turbo cartridge- they are hollow and fragile, and the copper washers love to get away.

Keep up the great work! It's fun to watch your progress.

View attachment 684580

View attachment 684581

Thanks! I was not planning on pulling the turbo actually. I felt for play and it was super tight. Actually tighter than any other turbo I own. And given the car has just a hair over 60k on it, I assumed I was good. What do you think?

I do have a 2g manifold that I plan to port. Thanks for the pictures- I wasn’t sure what to do about the center partition thing.

And that tab has to go. Haha, I ran into the same issue with this one damn turbo stud. If I could just get the manifold out, I could start cleaning the head and extracting the last two manifold studs while I wait for the turbo stud to soak in some more oil (I already snapped the stud once after welding a nut on to it and trying to force it out).

I forgot to mention- switching to the 2G oxygen sensor manifold is also a nice upgrade- notice the position of my O2 sensor is further forward- The 2G housing moves the sensor out of the main exhaust stream over towards the waste gate output, reducing turbulence. I have several extra exhaust manifold to turbo bolts if you need one to replace that stud, and also have a 2G manifold I was going to do the same lip procedure on and ebay. Send me a private message if you are interested.

An extra 2g exhaust manifold or o2 manifold?

 

[pauleyman]

Thanks! I was not planning on pulling the turbo actually. I felt for play and it was super tight. Actually tighter than any other turbo I own. And given the car has just a hair over 60k on it, I assumed I was good. What do you think?

With the stud still there you almost have to remove turbo. I've found that once the stud snaps you almost always have to remove everything and to date I haven't been able to remove one that's stuck. I didn't use heat though. If you get it out that's great.

 

[wparks]

It's great that the turbo shaft is tight- sounds like you are good to go there for a long time. Yes- pauleyman is right, you will probably have to remove the turbo for that stuck stud, but with the head studs out maybe cutting that tab off of the engine support will give you enough clearance to remove the manifold vertically if you loosen the connection between the O2 manifold and down-pipe. You will most likely need to use heat to get that stud to budge. Oil will likely not soak deep enough to help.

Hopefully the down-pipe connection will be firm enough to hold the turbo in place and not stress your lines as you reef on the stud to get it loose, otherwise you will have to fully disassemble the turbo to hold the turbine housing in a vise. It might be a good time to take the O2 housing apart from the turbine housing anyway- That gasket between them is thin metal, and I have seen them deform and crack and leak there. This might be a good opportunity to do a good cleaning, install an upgraded gasket, and use anti-seeze on everything so when (not if) you need to take it apart in the future it's an easier go.

The extra manifold I have is the exhaust manifold, not O2 housing, and again it sounds like you are good there too.

 

[Tina94]

Ok sounds good. Yeah I guess I’d like to take it all apart and inspect the oil feed/return lines for clogging and the turbo to o2 gasket. Shoot, wish I would’ve ordered one with my latest order to save in shipping. Oh well.

The downpipe is a bit gross right now. Cracked heat shield, rust, usual exhaust crappiness. But not going to mess with it yet because I have 10’ of 316 sanitary tube and enough fittings to make a really nice exhaust following the factory routing and using the factory hangers. Once the more pressing stuff is done I’ll fab up an exhaust from the o2 housing back. Can’t find a FWD kit anyways so really I have no choice but to make my own anyways.

 

[Dericsh]

Not sure how I missed this whole thread before, but I am caught up and following now. Great job so far!

One thing I could note, I don’t think you posted a photo of the refinished cam sprockets. I have seen a recent photo of one that failed (like broke in half failed) and the failure was being blamed on paint (maybe powder coat) being in between the sprocket and its bolt/washer mating surface. Who knows tho, maybe someone just left it loose.

 

[Tina94]

Not sure how I missed this whole thread before, but I am caught up and following now. Great job so far!

One thing I could note, I don’t think you posted a photo of the refinished cam sprockets. I have seen a recent photo of one that failed (like broke in half failed) and the failure was being blamed on paint (maybe powder coat) being in between the sprocket and its bolt/washer mating surface. Who knows tho, maybe someone just left it loose.

Really? I knew I should’ve done a better job of masking haha. I’m not too worried, it’s torqued to spec and I drive like a grandma. I like fast cars but I rarely actually use them to go fast, this car will likely see less strain than any other example.

I’ve also been watching your thread Dericsh. Good job to you as well. I admire your perseverance and commitment to making progress through all the day-to-day stuff that comes with a house and little kids.

 

[Dericsh]

Really? I knew I should’ve done a better job of masking haha. I’m not too worried, it’s torqued to spec and I drive like a grandma. I like fast cars but I rarely actually use them to go fast, this car will likely see less strain than any other example.

I’ve also been watching your thread Dericsh. Good job to you as well. I admire your perseverance and commitment to making progress through all the day-to-day stuff that comes with a house and little kids.

Yeah I’m thinking it’ll be ok as well, maybe a follow up retorque on the first oil change or something would be something easy to do real quick.

Thank you for stopping by my thread also, much appreciated! I drive like that too .

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

I like where this is headed, I’m gonna try that zep stuff on my head before I let it sit in the parts washer a bit, that came out nice cleaning everything in the car.

 

[Tina94]

Pretty fishy looking exhaust valve... don’t mind the oil, I sprayed some in there to protect from corrosion as the car will be sitting for a while. This “timing belt, fuel pump, and drive it.” Is turning into more and more of a rabbit hole...

 

[wparks]

I assume that one valve is looking different than the others? Have you done a dry/wet compression test? Wondering how those valve stem seals are doing after 30 years . . . BTW- How did that turbo stud go - did you end up pulling the whole turbo? Loving your rebuild, but not a lot of updates lately- it's like you have a life or something . . .

 

[Tina94]

I assume that one valve is looking different than the others? Have you done a dry/wet compression test? Wondering how those valve stem seals are doing after 30 years . . . BTW- How did that turbo stud go - did you end up pulling the whole turbo? Loving your rebuild, but not a lot of updates lately- it's like you have a life or something . . .

Yep, the one valve had a lot of that yellow-y chalky buildup like it went lean or something. The rest of the valves looked pretty clean. I have not done a dry/wet compression test yet. I didn’t want to do one yet because with all the brake cleaner, degreaser and water everywhere, some of it may have gotten into the dipstick hole. Didn’t want to pump any oil through the engine yet until I change it. I was just about to post an update tonight! Life sure does get in the way haha.

I’m finally to the point of getting parts back into the engine bay after cleaning them up and doing a lot of repainting. The timing is completely done and back together (finally) which was really the biggest chore on this car so far. The alternator, belts and power steering pump are put back on. Valve cover is put on as well in addition to new spark plugs. There are a few other parts that still need to go in, but that will be at a later date.

Our biggest project was getting out the turbo stud when taking off the exhaust manifold. It was stuck in there and took a lot of heat, oil and two people’s manpower to get it out. We ended up using two of the turbo bolts with a prybar as a holdback and then a 24” pipe wrench to spin out the stud after multiple rounds of acetylene and penetrating oil. Got it out with the turbo in the car though. Disconnected all the lines to be safe and replaced the crush washers.

The most fun, however, was moving the car around in its disassembled state. Had to do a cat delete on my Silverado and wanted the lift. No sooner had I gotten the Laser outside, than our insanely warm and snowfree winter changed! So the next day, alone, I had to get the car from the lot in back of my barn around front and uphill to the inside. Here’s what I came up with:

Then:

Pro tip: be sure to use the shittiest possible grade of natural fiber rope tied together so that it breaks over and over and you have an excuse to yell and throw shit. That’s how it works best haha. Once the angle got too extreme, it was just raw leg power slipping and sliding in the snow. But after an hour and a half, I got it.

Finally, what’s this bracket? Everything’s back together and it’s still lying around. Can’t find it in the service manual.

 

[pauleyman]

I’m finally to the point of getting parts back into the engine bay after cleaning them up and doing a lot of repainting. The timing is completely done and back together (finally) which was really the biggest chore on this car so far. The alternator, belts and power steering pump are put back on. Valve cover is put on as well in addition to new spark plugs. There are a few other parts that still need to go in, but that will be at a later date.View attachment 685837

Our biggest project was getting out the turbo stud when taking off the exhaust manifold. It was stuck in there and took a lot of heat, oil and two people’s manpower to get it out. We ended up using two of the turbo bolts with a prybar as a holdback and then a 24” pipe wrench to spin out the stud after multiple rounds of acetylene and penetrating oil. Got it out with the turbo in the car though. Disconnected all the lines to be safe and replaced the crush washers.

View attachment 685836

The most fun, however, was moving the car around in its disassembled state. Had to do a cat delete on my Silverado and wanted the lift. No sooner had I gotten the Laser outside, than our insanely warm and snowfree winter changed! So the next day, alone, I had to get the car from the lot in back of my barn around front and uphill to the inside. Here’s what I came up with:
View attachment 685839
Then:
View attachment 685840
Pro tip: be sure to use the shittiest possible grade of natural fiber rope tied together so that it breaks over and over and you have an excuse to yell and throw shit. That’s how it works best haha. Once the angle got too extreme, it was just raw leg power slipping and sliding in the snow. But after an hour and a half, I got it.

Finally, what’s this bracket? Everything’s back together and it’s still lying around. Can’t find it in the service manual.View attachment 685841

That goes from the motor mount bracket down. I threw it away 30 years ago.

 

[DSMPT]

Finally, what’s this bracket? Everything’s back together and it’s still lying around. Can’t find it in the service manual.

Engine mount bracket stay.

 

[Tina94]

Engine mount bracket stay.
View attachment 685844

Thank you!!

That goes from the motor mount bracket down. I threw it away 30 years ago.

Yeah, that does seem useless. Thanks!

 

[wparks]

TIna- That is some seriously funny stuff! I love the rope going out of the shop door I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls that kind of Hillbilly stunt! I live in the mountains at 8500 feet, and my workshop is an enclosed pole barn, really, with a dirt floor. When I had to roll my 1G chassis around the 90° turn, and up over the threshold, I don't have a cement floor so there was nothing to anchor to except the stump <behind> my workshop. I wrapped a chain around it, and passed it through a hole in the back wall so I could use a coffin pull/comealong to ratchet it in. You do what you gotta do.

That one hinky valve- I wonder if an injector partially plugged on you. Those input screens are pretty tiny- maybe worth pulling and back flushing? Glad you got that stud out- sounds like it was every bit of the chore we thought it would be. Were you able to get the broken studs out of the head? If that were mine I would be biting bullets over that one. Looking great, keep the updates coming!

 

[Tina94]

TIna- That is some seriously funny stuff! I love the rope going out of the shop door I'm glad I'm not the only one that pulls that kind of Hillbilly stunt! I live in the mountains at 8500 feet, and my workshop is an enclosed pole barn, really, with a dirt floor. When I had to roll my 1G chassis around the 90° turn, and up over the threshold, I don't have a cement floor so there was nothing to anchor to except the stump <behind> my workshop. I wrapped a chain around it, and passed it through a hole in the back wall so I could use a coffin pull/comealong to ratchet it in. You do what you gotta do.

That one hinky valve- I wonder if an injector partially plugged on you. Those input screens are pretty tiny- maybe worth pulling and back flushing? Glad you got that stud out- sounds like it was every bit of the chore we thought it would be. Were you able to get the broken studs out of the head? If that were mine I would be biting bullets over that one. Looking great, keep the updates coming!

Yeah the rest were easy, just welded nuts and spun them right out. The 2g manifold I bought was about 1/16” out of true so it’s at the machine shop getting surfaced but the head is all prepped. I’ll probably clean that valve off as good as I can and then send the injectors off to FIC. Was planning to do that anyways, but now their before and after results should really show some important data. Getting damn nervous for the compression test.

Glad I’m not the only one who finds enjoyment in doing hillbilly nonsense. Your method sounds even worse! (Or better?) haha. Tuning at that altitude must be a challenge, much respect.

 

[pauleyman]

I'm impressed at your attention to detail.
I assume you will be doing 4 bolts on the turbo instead of the stud. They are specialized. Buy oem. Get the oem washers too. 8 total. They are actually Belleville springs and you face them cup to cup to keep the bolts tight.

 

[Tina94]

I'm impressed at your attention to detail.
I assume you will be doing 4 bolts on the turbo instead of the stud. They are specialized. Buy oem. Get the oem washers too. 8 total. They are actually Belleville springs and you face them cup to cup to keep the bolts tight.

I’m really glad you said something, I was just going to use grade 10 since I couldn’t find arp and I wasn’t impressed with the oem material strength. The stud itself was breaking as I tried to remove it, not my weld. So I figured if my wire weld on an unclean stud and galvanized bolt was holding better than the base material itself...

But I’ll take your word for it and order brand new oem tonight.

Feel like it’s starting to really come together, managed to avoid some pitfalls thanks to everyone’s help, and now have basically every part I plan to install. I owe you all a beer.

Just a matter of finding time to put it together methodically and with attention to detail now.

Looking forward to tackling little stuff like these stickers and window trim .

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

They seem pricy per bolt but they’re worth it in the long run I’ll second @pauleyman on that. I see your point with the stud giving before your weld, but you have to figure that’s a 30 year old stud that’s seen a lot of heat and never been apart. Install new oem ones with the correct washers and zinc antiseize and they’ll do you well for quite some time. I’ll be the first to admit in the past there’s been times I’ve used the higher grade hardware store stuff with proper washers and zinc antiseize and gotten by, but I knew when using them they’d be apart at the end of the season then tossed and replaced, never had an issue but that was short term use. Using the right stuff you can’t go wrong for long term use. And whatever you do avoid the stainless ARP ones, stainless is not meant to be thread into cast, especially in high heat situations, they tend to snap right off if you try to break them free just after one or two regular heat cycles.

On a side note, have you thought about upgrading to a 7cm turbine housing from a 16g while it’s apart? Most 7cm housings didn’t suffer as bad from the severe cracking in the wastegate passage almost every 30 year old 6cm housing is bound to have, plus it’s a nice upgrade that matches well to a ported 2g manifold and ported o2 housing while still appearing 100% stock, brings the 14b alive noticeably without the need for any fuel system upgrades or tuning on a pretty stock car. Something worth mentioning anyway, and while the Chinese 16g’s are pretty much junk, the 7cm turbine housing and wastegate actuator they came with aren’t bad at all with a little work and can be had pretty much dirt cheap, making them a fresher and cheap upgrade to the 14b.

 

[Tina94]

They seem pricy per bolt but they’re worth it in the long run I’ll second @pauleyman on that. I see your point with the stud giving before your weld, but you have to figure that’s a 30 year old stud that’s seen a lot of heat and never been apart. Install new oem ones with the correct washers and zinc antiseize and they’ll do you well for quite some time. I’ll be the first to admit in the past there’s been times I’ve used the higher grade hardware store stuff with proper washers and zinc antiseize and gotten by, but I knew when using them they’d be apart at the end of the season then tossed and replaced, never had an issue but that was short term use. Using the right stuff you can’t go wrong for long term use. And whatever you do avoid the stainless ARP ones, stainless is not meant to be thread into cast, especially in high heat situations, they tend to snap right off if you try to break them free just after one or two regular heat cycles.

On a side note, have you thought about upgrading to a 7cm turbine housing from a 16g while it’s apart? Most 7cm housings didn’t suffer as bad from the severe cracking in the wastegate passage almost every 30 year old 6cm housing is bound to have, plus it’s a nice upgrade that matches well to a ported 2g manifold and ported o2 housing while still appearing 100% stock, brings the 14b alive noticeably without the need for any fuel system upgrades or tuning on a pretty stock car. Something worth mentioning anyway, and while the Chinese 16g’s are pretty much junk, the 7cm turbine housing and wastegate actuator they came with aren’t bad at all with a little work and can be had pretty much dirt cheap, making them a fresher and cheap upgrade to the 14b.

That’s a good point. A hairline crack is forming on the inside of the exhaust housing. However it isn’t through to the outside, so I can’t drill it and weld it. I was going to wait for it to pop through and then fix it. But if the $100 Chinese eBay special exhaust housings aren’t bad, maybe I’d do that instead. Was considering a 16g, but the only semi reliable brand I could find was CXracing. I know their stuff has gotten better over the past few years but I still am not sure if I’d trust one of their turbos.

I’m with you 100% on not using stainless in cast. Unfortunately, it seems that stainless is the only material offered by arp for the turbo to manifold. I’m not sure what their thought process was on that one.