Please sign the RPM Act petition - again!

[Ludachris]

I urge all automotive enthusiasts out there, if you love cars, PLEASE take 5 minutes to read the linked article and sign the linked petition - yes, this is the same petition many of us signed over a year ago, but we all have to sign it again: https://www.sema.org/epa-news

The EPA is STILL of the opinion that it is illegal to convert a street car into a race car for competition use only (not to be driven on public roadways) if it means removing the emissions equipment in the process - which is usually done when building a race car for competition use. They refuse to create an exemption for it in the case of off road/competition usage. They're doing this by going after manufacturers in the aftermarket who make tuning devices that allow vehicle owners to tune their cars - even though the products are meant to be for off-road use, the EPA is still fining the manufacturer and shutting down their product lines, putting the onus on the businesses in the industry instead of the individuals who buy the products. It's like shutting down Krylon's spray paint line to help prevent graffiti. This obviously stands to kill off amateur racing as we know it, along with all companies out there that make any type of tuning devices. We know a few that could be affected.

This thread isn't meant to create outrage or spark more political bickering - please don't reply with any partisan content. The RPM Act actually had/has bipartisan backing and regardless of our political views, it should be something we can all get behind. This is simply a plea to get people to take action in a meaningful way that will help save our hobby and amateur racing... really, it's the only meaningful tool we have available to us. Though this thread is political in nature, since it involves contacting your representatives, let's save the typical comments and memes to be posted on social media please. The old "no politics" policy still applies to help prevent the same toxic atmosphere we've all seen on FB. I don't want those arguments to distract from the topic.

Please sign that petition. It will automatically send letters to your representatives based on your address - the letter is already written for you.

 

[jed344]

Cant believe they are at it again. Signed and sent again.

 

[dustyboner]

this is another example of
UN agenda 21
in action

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[Dericsh]

Signed!

 

[bastarddsm]

Does anyone know, as the entire hot rodding industry as a whole do we have anyone on the payroll lobbying on our behalf? Who's palms do we gotta grease?

The RPM Act is a step in the right direction, but we really need more if we want this hobby to live on. We need a 20yr rule - basically you get 1 free pass for a 20yr old car that's only a hobby car not your daily. And realistically it's probably good for the environment, think about it, most times you see a 20yr old car on the road (at least around here) it's a janky ass POS, check engine light on, exhaust rusted out. Probably an emissions nightmare.... But an enthusiasts old car is probably in a pretty good state of tune, taken care of, and not really driven that often. Even if it is a daily, it's likely it's better taken care, and less likely to be a bad polluter. By not killing the hobby, more people learn about car, become passionate, and are more likely to keep old shit in better condition.

Some of the shit is just dumb. It's illegal for us to put E85 in our dsm's, but it's legal for me to daily my 01 dmax that doesn't have any emissions junk on it from the factory and gets 9mpg. DUMB DUMB DUMB.

Lastly, we all need to get our shit together, or we won't even have a track to go to with our illegal race cars. With nascar teams jerking off about this "net-zero" bs, it's only time before that starts to become a requirement for all motorsports. Furthermore I strongly feel that all these high roller events (tx2k, fl2k, wcf, hmd, gtrbs) are bad for the hobby. More and more of these elite type races are popping up, and I can see as the future goes on I can see the end of sportsman type racing. If you are like me and have limited funds, and can only afford to goto one of these events as a spectator, or go run your car at the biggest shithole track in the world, you know which one it should be.

 

[my98gsx]

It will never stop... the time will come when politicians will attempt to ban all gas powered vehicles on the roadways. You have companies like volvo claiming they will stop gas powered cars by 2030 (ridiculous).

 

[XC92]

What about lawsuits challenging the constitutionality, legality or justification for these rules? Any efforts being made there? Expensive, of course, but if you win you can sue for damages and legal fees. Aftermarket parts makers and custom shops would likely be willing to chip in since their revenue is being threatened. I'm also guessing that today's courts would be somewhat friendlier to such plaintiffs than in the past.

Btw, are these cars being driven to events, or trailered? If the latter, they're parked off-street on private property, and not normally licensed, plated, etc., so you couldn't legally drive them on roads, what's the problem if races take place off-road on private property? Or are they trying to reduce emissions from modified race cars even if they're only driven on private tracks?

 

[92AWDHX40]

Signed .

 

[dustyboner]

Does anyone know, as the entire hot rodding industry as a whole do we have anyone on the payroll lobbying on our behalf? Who's palms do we gotta grease?

exactly, the only way anything will happen is if the industry has lobbyist that can get some congressman to slip an exemption into a bill.

What about lawsuits challenging the constitutionality, legality or justification for these rules? Any efforts being made there?

thats some funny shit. they don't care about constitutionality. If they did they wouldn't be trying to ban guns.
Gun control is another United Nations directive.

Its not about the environment or anything like that, it about control. The people at the top want complete control over the general population. they know that the only way to achieve that without much resistance is to slowly chip away at our freedoms until we have none.

 

[Vegas Smith]

There's an expiration date to this hobby unfortunately. Once electric vehicles make enough financial sense to the average consumer then the bottom will largely fall out of the "dirty" vehicles. The only people that will be left driving dirty vehicles will be work trucks and semis until those get converted down the road. I think GM said they'll be fully converted to electric by 2035. They could be posturing due to pressure by giant hedge funds like Blackrock that will divest if they don't see clean energy switches but they also could be serious. We've probably got about 20 years left on all this.

 

[95REGF150]

I think 20 years is a pretty fair estimate for there to be no new gas powered cars. But to say that in 20 years the entire hobby will be gone is a little unrealistic. There are millions of gas powered cars out there in the world from the last 100 years and unless they do just pass legislation to confiscate and crush them which would be pretty unlikely then our cars will continue to live on for as long as we want them too. And for those that think they will do something like that, they don't have to. As time goes on we will become the minority still driving gas cars and they are not going to spend time and money trying to get us last few hold outs to give up our cars.

And even for those of us that try to hold on, once all new cars are electric and current gas cars start to age and get scrapped then more and more gas stations are going to close in lieu of charging stations. So if we have to drive 20-30 miles just to get gas for our cars then they become much more of an toy/antique to appreciate history than actual transportation. Which is what they want less miles being driven with gas. And who knows what other technologies will come in 20 years. Better batteries, or something new we haven't seen yet. Hell I still think the hydrogen fuel cell was a way more efficient way to store energy than battery packs. But it just didn't catch on.

 

[Vegas Smith]

But quite simply once all new cars are electric and current gas cars start to age and get scrapped then more and more gas stations are going to close in lieu of charging stations. So if we have to drive 20-30 miles just to get gas for our cars then they become much more of an toy/antique to appreciate history than actual transportation. Which is what they want less miles being driven with gas. And who knows what other technologies will come in 20 years. Better batteries, or something new we haven't seen yet. Hell I still think the hydrogen fuel cell was a way more efficient way to store energy than battery packs. But it just didn't catch on.

This was more what I was referring to. I don't think the hobby will be gone but the aftermarket support will be dry up significantly. Who's going to invest in speed shops and engine/turbo producers for an ever-slimming piece of the pie? That's not even mentioning future legislation where you may have to pay, for example, a $1500 yearly registration fee or something just to operate these things.

 

[Ludachris]

Does anyone know, as the entire hot rodding industry as a whole do we have anyone on the payroll lobbying on our behalf? Who's palms do we gotta grease?

Yes: https://www.semasan.com/

 

[TCB91GSX]

Signed!!!

 

[Ludachris]

I think 20 years is a pretty fair estimate for there to be no new gas powered cars. But to say that in 20 years the entire hobby will be gone is a little unrealistic. There are millions of gas powered cars out there in the world from the last 100 years and unless they do just pass legislation to confiscate and crush them which would be pretty unlikely then our cars will continue to live on for as long as we want them too. And for those that think they will do something like that, they don't have to. As time goes on we will become the minority still driving gas cars and they are not going to spend time and money trying to get us last few hold outs to give up our cars.

And even for those of us that try to hold on, once all new cars are electric and current gas cars start to age and get scrapped then more and more gas stations are going to close in lieu of charging stations. So if we have to drive 20-30 miles just to get gas for our cars then they become much more of an toy/antique to appreciate history than actual transportation. Which is what they want less miles being driven with gas. And who knows what other technologies will come in 20 years. Better batteries, or something new we haven't seen yet. Hell I still think the hydrogen fuel cell was a way more efficient way to store energy than battery packs. But it just didn't catch on.

That's how I see it going as well. We might be able to salvage some aspects of it for a bit longer and keep the costs of the hobby more reasonable for a while by staying involved with the SEMA Action Network and signing petitions when needed.

What about lawsuits challenging the constitutionality, legality or justification for these rules? Any efforts being made there?

SEMA and the PRI organizations have filed lawsuits against the EPA over this recently. Not sure where that will go, since the law is vague and left open to interpretation, which is why an amendment needs to be added to make it crystal clear that the act of converting street cars to race cars is completely legal - and that manufacturers should be able to sell products "for off road use" to people who will be using them for off road use.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Did my duty!!! Signed

 

[Ludachris]

Thanks to all who have signed - be sure to share this with your other car friends to make sure they sign it too.

 

[JeffGS-T97]

Signed and spreading the word! I knew nothing about this until today. Us common folks got to have our fun too.

 

[We're on Boost]

Signed and spreading the word! I knew nothing about this until today. Us common folks got to have our fun too.

Ditto here.

 

[1cleangsx]

Signed!

 

[tstkl]

I have to imagine this is a result of states that don't have emissions compliance testing. The federal government has no way of compelling those states of implementing smog testing without pissing off everyone, but if they do this they only piss off a subset and greatly reduce the number of illegally modified vehicles on the road. They are trying to cut off the issue (smog non compliance on road vehicles) by taking out the source. We'd be joking if we said companies in this industry don't predominately profit off vehicles that are street driven.

That being said, their job is to clean up the air, so even if those states did have testing they would be looking for ways to go further and this is probably inevitable. I've always been against banning any technology and think a carbon tax is the only way to unbiasly promote a cleaner future. Let us burn gas so long as we are willing to fund the carbon capture plant thats required to clean up after us. Most people will choose electric and the few of us that can afford to and enjoy combustion engines will do so. I know for me personally I wouldn't mind having an EV that gets me to and from work and my toys for the weekend fun.

On an even more tangential topic, I think sites like this should scrub itself of posts recommending removal of emissions equipment that don't improve performance. I've always been annoyed by people removing charcoal canisters and egr valves just cuz as they aren't impacting performance at WOT. If you're changing out the intake manifold then it's kinda water under the bridge because the tuning would probably need to change which no one would bother with, but for people running stock manifolds those components should stay.

 

[talonman1200]

Signed!

 

[SixBolt_16G]

Signed and distributed!

 

[XC92]

SEMA and the PRI organizations have filed lawsuits against the EPA over this recently. Not sure where that will go, since the law is vague and left open to interpretation, which is why an amendment needs to be added to make it crystal clear that the act of converting street cars to race cars is completely legal - and that manufacturers should be able to sell products "for off road use" to people who will be using them for off road use.

Suits have to be filed against specific applications of this law that the plaintiffs claim are either contrary to the laws language or intention, contradict other laws, or are actually unconstitutional, say being an unlawful, unnecessary and arbitrary restriction of rights or liberties without good cause, and so on.

If they can demonstrate that the case uses being challenged here have nothing to do with these laws' purposes, which I assume is to make sure that street legal cars are safe and not excessively polluting, because these cars will ONLY be tracked, trailered back and forth and never driven so much as a foot on a public street or road, then either the specific application of these laws was invalid, e.g. fines, seizures, etc., or the laws themselves are overbroad and unconstitutional.

I think everyone here agrees that less pollution is better and that both on and off-street cars should be safe and reliable and that laws are needed to make sure of this because not everyone can be trusted to self-police. It's just that these specific laws appear to address this in arbitrary, stupid and ineffective ways and need to be overturned or amended to not be so.

I assume that this goes way beyond DSMs to the overall "amateur" modding and racing community, and that folks in this community are joining forces to lobby, petition and sue their way to changing these laws?

exactly, the only way anything will happen is if the industry has lobbyist that can get some congressman to slip an exemption into a bill.



thats some funny shit. they don't care about constitutionality. If they did they wouldn't be trying to ban guns.
Gun control is another United Nations directive.

Its not about the environment or anything like that, it about control. The people at the top want complete control over the general population. they know that the only way to achieve that without much resistance is to slowly chip away at our freedoms until we have none.

Heh. Such ponderings are way above my pay grade so I think I'll just stick to the specifics of this particular matter.

I think 20 years is a pretty fair estimate for there to be no new gas powered cars. But to say that in 20 years the entire hobby will be gone is a little unrealistic. There are millions of gas powered cars out there in the world from the last 100 years and unless they do just pass legislation to confiscate and crush them which would be pretty unlikely then our cars will continue to live on for as long as we want them too. And for those that think they will do something like that, they don't have to. As time goes on we will become the minority still driving gas cars and they are not going to spend time and money trying to get us last few hold outs to give up our cars.

And even for those of us that try to hold on, once all new cars are electric and current gas cars start to age and get scrapped then more and more gas stations are going to close in lieu of charging stations. So if we have to drive 20-30 miles just to get gas for our cars then they become much more of an toy/antique to appreciate history than actual transportation. Which is what they want less miles being driven with gas. And who knows what other technologies will come in 20 years. Better batteries, or something new we haven't seen yet. Hell I still think the hydrogen fuel cell was a way more efficient way to store energy than battery packs. But it just didn't catch on.

I still think that powering cars off of electricity produced by top-mounted wind turbines powered by air flowing past the moving car would be the perfect solution. I mean the cars are going to be moving anyway, so why not exploit that to produce all that "free" energy?

Seriously, though, I think that it could well be less than 20 years, as new technologies that succeed tend to grow exponentially once they take off.

Look at cell phones, which went from only Wall St. tycoons carrying these ridiculous bricks around to the majority of people owning and using one in around 10 years or so. Or commercial air travel, which took around 10-15 years to become a major thing from almost nothing.

And EVs have been around for well over a century in some form, with the current LiOn-based crop having been around for well over 10 years. It's just a matter of time before mass-produced ones that can compete with ICE ones on the features most consumers care about, namely price, range, reliability and core performance, come out--along with the infrastructure to charge them conveniently and cost-effectively. It's just a matter of time before this happens.

And once it does, an inflection point will have been reached, and it'll take less than a decade for most new cars to be EV. I'm guessing that we're no more than 5 years away from that, especially if government actively tries to encourage this via subsidies, grants, loans, R&D, etc., which is very likely to happen.

But I don't think that ICE cars are going away, not any time soon, or really ever. Eventually there won't be any new mass-produced ones and new ones will be a niche market akin to vinyl records or steel frame bicycles. But they'll still be made, in small numbers for those who want and can afford to buy and maintain them.

And of course lots of existing ones will still be around, carefully maintained by their enthusiast owners, and even driven on roads, but less and less so given how hard it'll become to find gas and parts. But in both cases it'll be a niche market. Nothing lasts forever and the dominance of ICE cars is gradually winding down.

 

[Ludachris]

Suits have to be filed against specific applications of this law that the plaintiffs claim are either contrary to the laws language or intention, contradict other laws, or are actually unconstitutional, say being an unlawful, unnecessary and arbitrary restriction of rights or liberties without good cause, and so on.

If they can demonstrate that the case uses being challenged here have nothing to do with these laws' purposes, which I assume is to make sure that street legal cars are safe and not excessively polluting, because these cars will ONLY be tracked, trailered back and forth and never driven so much as a foot on a public street or road, then either the specific application of these laws was invalid, e.g. fines, seizures, etc., or the laws themselves are overbroad and unconstitutional.

I think everyone here agrees that less pollution is better and that both on and off-street cars should be safe and reliable and that laws are needed to make sure of this because not everyone can be trusted to self-police. It's just that these specific laws appear to address this in arbitrary, stupid and ineffective ways and need to be overturned or amended to not be so.

I assume that this goes way beyond DSMs to the overall "amateur" modding and racing community, and that folks in this community are joining forces to lobby, petition and sue their way to changing these laws?

If tuning devices start going away because they allow users to bypass emissions on their race cars (which is what the EPA is arguing) then it will definitely affect the DSM world directly. Motec, Haltech, AEM, and even smaller products like ECMlink will all be in the crosshairs of the EPA at some point unless the law is amended to make race cars exempt, thus preserving those manufacturers ability to sell those products to the race car crowd at the very least.