Resolved Oil pressure/90 filter housing issue

[jpmxrider489]

Since your motor is out, you might want to replace the front cover gasket as a precaution. It's a known leak area on older engines and will be some work (have to remove front cover which will take some doing) but nothing like the mess you'll have if it's the real issue and you don't replace it (since you really need the engine out to do it). Don't use an aftermarket one - I just learned the hard way. I'm actually replacing mine on my 2g with the engine in the car - what a huge time consuming mess!

How would I test for leaks? Are we talking about crankcase pressure related leak or like a boost leak. I am highly uneducated about the internals of the motor. I know how to time the engine but as far as what goes on internally I dont know much. Are my symtoms related to the front case?

 

[luv2rallye]

I'm talking about if you still have a visible oil leak in the timing belt area that you just can't pin down (still have oil over a lot of unrelated things). This is pretty much the last resort (after replacing all the seals and everything else you can think of). Since you said you have the engine out I thought I'd mention it. Don't know any way to test it, it's just a visible leak you can never find.

Here you can see the front case (8) and its gasket (9 - the one that you'd replace): http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajer...e_Manual/2017/11/html/M111300720018900ENG.HTM

And here is a long complicated video by an expert mechanic mainly on replacing the oil pump but it clearly shows the front case and cleaning off its gasket (and what's inside the front case). You probably wouldn't do any of the oil pump stuff at all - just leave it inside its cover. You'd probably only be interested in what's involved to remove the front case to replace its gasket and leave the rest. You can clearly see having the engine off the car on a stand is the time to do this. Again it's quite involved and complicated so this is a last resort (and possibly even left to a mechanic if you think it's beyond your ability). Again I'm talking about an oil leak in the timing area that you just can't seem to ever fix no matter how many seals, etc you've replaced.

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[1qkfwd]

Quick question, where are you pulling your oil pressure reading from? There’s a few different spots and you’ll get a slightly different reading. Some ports on the ofh are pre filter and some are post filter. The reading can be 5-10psi different. Then there’s the reading off the head port feeding the turbo that can be quite a bit lower than the ofh readings.

 

[frosh29]

If you are worried about it, check it. I had to port my OFH due to high oil pressure after a rebuild. After it was ported the oil pressure dropped nicely. It's not as low as yours at idle though. If it were me, I would keep investigating.

-Scott

 

[jpmxrider489]

Here are some pics of my filter housing. I don't see anything abnormal. But I never took one off. I still haven't figure out the pressure issue.

I have measured pressure at the large 3/8 port as well as the port closest to the relief valve. I have also moved my pressure sensor to the firewall to avoid vibration and the pressure seem to be equal.

 

[jpmxrider489]

Also chasing a oil leak behind the timing cover. What bolts go to fluid areas? I dont know if I feel comfortable pulling the front case off but I thought the leak was the oil pump seal, so I replaced it but still leaking a little. Seem like it could be coming behind the motor mount bracket/ pulley or near the water pump.

 

[DSMPT]

Here are some pics of my filter housing. I don't see anything abnormal. But I never took one off. I still haven't figure out the pressure issue.

I have measured pressure at the large 3/8 port as well as the port closest to the relief valve. I have also moved my pressure sensor to the firewall to avoid vibration and the pressure seem to be equal.

This is what I was telling you. The OFH is ported and it seems it's done too much (where the green circle is. and compare with the one in another pic). Shim the spring or replace the OFH if you don't like the oil pressure you have.

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[jpmxrider489]

So I want to update this thread and get more opinions about the oil leak. I am STILL leaking oil. I bought a gasket kit from extreme. I know my pan is leaking. I am maybe thinking it is running along the pan and into the timing cover and being thrown around. Thoughts on that? I have a crank scrape between the pan and the block. Should I put a oil pan gasket between both surfaces? I am thinking about removing the scraper because it has been a pain dealing with sealing the pan. It would be my 3rd try.

I am pulling the motor this week. I am going to replace everything that is fairly straight forward. This is the gasket kit I got. If someone can look at what is included, what shouldn't I try and replace?

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/To...tsubishi-Eclipse-90-99-BLACK-FRIDAY-SALE.html

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

What crank scraper are you using? Is it attached at the oil pan bolt area? If so, I would get rid of it and use Permatex Grey silicone on the pan to seal her up good.

 

[jpmxrider489]

I have no idea who makes it. It was on the motor when I bought it from someone well known. It is attached to the bolt hole area. I tried RTV on both sides of it. I was going to try to actual gaskets. If you don't think its needed, then Ill not use it. I'm running a eagle crank so I just assumed it was needed. I seemed to find mixed thoughts on them.

 

[jpmxrider489]

I decided to pull the motor and I am glad I did. He is some pictures. If you look at the timing cover, you can see a circle. But the bolt for the pulley doesn't look like it is into a oil galley. I also see oil on the water pump which you can see in the picture. My theory about oil from the pan getting in here, I am unsure of now. If someone with experience with oil leaks under here can chime in.

I have replaced the oil pump sprocket seal prior to these pics. I also replaced the valve cover gasket and I know that isnt the issue. I thought that was my issue. I was going to replace the cam seals but I dont see oil in that area.

So at this point where could the oil come from? I can replace the oil sprocket seal again. The seal I am talking about is at the bottom right of the cover. Is there another seal behind this? I don't see major signs near the filter housing. But I plan on replacing that seal as well. The filter housing gasket I did replace.

So where else could oil come from? Crank seal? Timing tensioner bolt? Which I did rtv. What you guys think where this is coming from?

 

[DSMPT]

I decided to pull the motor and I am glad I did. He is some pictures. If you look at the timing cover, you can see a circle. But the bolt for the pulley doesn't look like it is into a oil galley. I also see oil on the water pump which you can see in the picture. My theory about oil from the pan getting in here, I am unsure of now. If someone with experience with oil leaks under here can chime in.

I have replaced the oil pump sprocket seal prior to these pics. I also replaced the valve cover gasket and I know that isnt the issue. I thought that was my issue. I was going to replace the cam seals but I dont see oil in that area.

So at this point where could the oil come from? I can replace the oil sprocket seal again. The seal I am talking about is at the bottom right of the cover. Is there another seal behind this? I don't see major signs near the filter housing. But I plan on replacing that seal as well. The filter housing gasket I did replace.

So where else could oil come from? Crank seal? Timing tensioner bolt? Which I did rtv. What you guys think where this is coming from?

Are you sure the oil pump sprocket and the seal sit in the right position and the castle plug has an o-ring under the flange? Or has no damage inside of the sprocket where contacts the seal. Anyways you will see when you remove the sprocket. If the leak is occurring behind the sprocket, there is no wonder even if you have oil on the water pump. The belt and pulleys would spread the oil.

 

[jpmxrider489]

So I replaced the seal on the oil pump sprocket ( bottom right ). I think its in the right position. Unless there is something special that I dont know about. The castle nut I didnt look at or touch. I read that its not good to try and fix it unless Im sure its the issue. Since I am unsure, I didnt want to mess with it. Ill get a picture of the seal on the weekend. Are you thinking the bottom right sprocket is bringing oil up to the water pump?

 

[DSMPT]

So I replaced the seal on the oil pump sprocket ( bottom right ). I think its in the right position. Unless there is something special that I dont know about. The castle nut I didnt look at or touch. I read that its not good to try and fix it unless Im sure its the issue. Since I am unsure, I didnt want to mess with it. Ill get a picture of the seal on the weekend. Are you thinking the bottom right sprocket is bringing oil up to the water pump?

We are still not sure where the leak was occurring. But if we assume the leak was from the sprocket seal, then it's very possible that oil is every where under the cover.
When you remove the sprocket, inspect it very well, including the back side, the sleeve part where goes into the seal and see if there is nothing abnormal. If the sleeve part is scratched or cracked, that may kill the seal sooner.
For instance, In the pic below, you see some wear/scratch on the sleeve. That is where exactly contacts the seal. And this can be seen more often if the sprocket has ever been on an engine that has been badly blown. Like hit valves at high RPM and the engine got locked or something like that. Also in that case the sleeve may be cracked.
Another thing I have seen is once I saw a guy put the sprocket in wrong position (you can't insert the sprocket if it's in wrong position) and he forced the sprocket go deeper by over tightening the nut. Th engine was running but oil was leaking badly.

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[pauleyman]

Motor is out of the car? Why wouldn't you replace every gasket and seal on that side? It's dumb cheap and isn't a big deal. It's maintenance 101 with motor out of the car. Clean it all up and replace the gaskets. All of them.

 

[jpmxrider489]

We are still not sure where the leak was occurring. But if we assume the leak was from the sprocket seal, then it's very possible that oil is every where under the cover.
When you remove the sprocket, inspect it very well, including the back side, the sleeve part where goes into the seal and see if there is nothing abnormal. If the sleeve part is scratched or cracked, that may kill the seal sooner.
For instance, In the pic below, you see some wear/scratch on the sleeve. That is where exactly contacts the seal. And this can be seen more often if the sprocket has ever been on an engine that has been badly blown. Like hit valves at high RPM and the engine got locked or something like that. Also in that case the sleeve may be cracked.
Another thing I have seen is once I saw a guy put the sprocket in wrong position (you can't insert the sprocket if it's in wrong position) and he forced the sprocket go deeper by over tightening the nut. Th engine was running but oil was leaking badly.

I attached more pics. It looks like the sprocket has a score in it. Also the sprocket when on the engine, there is slop in it, like a how a wrong socket acts on a bolt. The castle plug above the sprocket has oil on the bottom notch. Does that look like a leak or a pool of oil from being thrown? You can see oil on the bolt to the right of the sprocket as well as the water pump. Is a 6 bolt and 7 bolt sprocket the same? The seal looks a tad messed up to. Without the sprocket mounted, the rod has some up and down slop. Car has no balance shafts.

Motor is out of the car? Why wouldn't you replace every gasket and seal on that side? It's dumb cheap and isn't a big deal. It's maintenance 101 with motor out of the car. Clean it all up and replace the gaskets. All of them.

I would like to replace all of them. But didnt know if stuff internally is going to come out when removing the front case. I need to know how to properly remove and install the seals like the crank seal. How do I remove the crank sprocket?

 

[jpmxrider489]

It doesnt look like the crank seal is the issue.

 

[pauleyman]

The entire front case and seal kit it 3$ at rockauto. Do not use silicone it is not necessary either on gaskets or seals. That oil pump sprocket seal look like chunks are missing.

 

[DSMPT]

I attached more pics. It looks like the sprocket has a score in it. Also the sprocket when on the engine, there is slop in it, like a how a wrong socket acts on a bolt. The castle plug above the sprocket has oil on the bottom notch. Does that look like a leak or a pool of oil from being thrown? You can see oil on the bolt to the right of the sprocket as well as the water pump. Is a 6 bolt and 7 bolt sprocket the same? The seal looks a tad messed up to. Without the sprocket mounted, the rod has some up and down slop. Car has no balance shafts.



I would like to replace all of them. But didnt know if stuff internally is going to come out when removing the front case. I need to know how to properly remove and install the seals like the crank seal. How do I remove the crank sprocket?

As I told you in my first comment that there are several spots that cause oil leak on the front case. And to replace the front case gasket/seals and the rear main seal will be a huge PITA once the engine gets back on the car. So you should replace all while it's out, it doesn't really matter if it's the cause of the leak or not. And it doesn't cost much. Since you haven't found where the leak was occurring yet, replacing all gaskets/seals and proper installation would probably solve the leak. That's what @pauleyman recommends.

And by seeing the pics you uploaded, the oil pump sprocket seal doesn't look installed properly, maybe loose.
And can't tell for sure but to me, the oil under the castle plug looks just a pool and on the water pump looks being thrown from the right bottom side.
Yes, the oil pump sprocket is the same between 6 bolt and 7 bolt.
To remove the oil pump and replace the gasket, as you have no balance shafts, you need to remove the oil pan, 2 bolts on the joint of oil pickup tube (inside of oil pan), oil filter housing and all mounting bolts on the pump. After removing everything, you can remove the oil pump from the block. Maybe it's stuck, in that case you can gently tap it towards driver's side since there are 2 dowels on the left/right bottom corner. Nothing comes out from inside, so don't worry about that.
Clean very well both surface before install a new gasket (should replace the oil pickup gasket, too). Just be very careful that don't leave anything inside the oil passage in the block and the oil pump.

P.S. If you want to distinguish from where oil was leaking before removing the oil pump, (If you still have oil in the oil pan), put back the pump sprocket and spin the sprocket clockwise by using a hand drill w/ a 14mm socket, "maybe" you can find the leak while you are spinning.

 

[jpmxrider489]

As I told you in my first comment that there are several spots that cause oil leak on the front case. And to replace the front case gasket/seals and the rear main seal will be a huge PITA once the engine gets back on the car. So you should replace all while it's out, it doesn't really matter if it's the cause of the leak or not. And it doesn't cost much. Since you haven't found where the leak was occurring yet, replacing all gaskets/seals and proper installation would probably solve the leak. That's what @pauleyman recommends.

And by seeing the pics you uploaded, the oil pump sprocket seal doesn't look installed properly, maybe loose.
And can't tell for sure but to me, the oil under the castle plug looks just a pool and on the water pump looks being thrown from the right bottom side.
Yes, the oil pump sprocket is the same between 6 bolt and 7 bolt.
To remove the oil pump and replace the gasket, as you have no balance shafts, you need to remove the oil pan, 2 bolts on the joint of oil pickup tube (inside of oil pan), oil filter housing and all mounting bolts on the pump. After removing everything, you can remove the oil pump from the block. Maybe it's stuck, in that case you can gently tap it towards driver's side since there are 2 dowels on the left/right bottom corner. Nothing comes out from inside, so don't worry about that.
Clean very well both surface before install a new gasket (should replace the oil pickup gasket, too). Just be very careful that don't leave anything inside the oil passage in the block and the oil pump.

P.S. If you want to distinguish from where oil was leaking before removing the oil pump, (If you still have oil in the oil pan), put back the pump sprocket and spin the sprocket clockwise by using a hand drill w/ a 14mm socket, "maybe" you can find the leak while you are spinning.

I ordered a new sprocket. I was going to use the one from my blown 7 bolt but just wanted to be on the safe side. I also ordered new dowel pins. I already have the front case off and there was a gasket but everything was caked with rtv. I read mixed reviews on the use of rtv or not when installing the gasket and seals. I personally like having a thin coat but should I use grey, black, red, or none. My seal kit came with a oil pump gasket. The the gasket would go between the front case and the oil pump where the pickup tube goes. I saw jafro video saying not to use a gasket there. It also came with 3 oil pump seals. I know which one goes for the sprocket but I dont know about the others. Maybe just extra.

When I put everything back on, I will spin the pump to check for leaks. That's a great idea.

The last thing I noticed was the sprocket has slop when sitting on the rod and not sure why. I also noticed on my ofh, the pressure release bolt was leaking and it looks like it was over tightened. I'm going to put a small shim to raise my warm oil pressure above 6psi. While I'm in here, is there a way to check for internal leaks or is that not a thing? We kind of talked about it earlier in the thread. I appreciate all the help your giving me. This is all new to me.

 

[pauleyman]

Again, no rtv. Not on anything. Show us this oil pump gasket. I've never seen one in any kit I've purchased.

 

[DSMPT]

The last thing I noticed was the sprocket has slop when sitting on the rod and not sure why.

That's what I meant above that maybe your sprocket (or could be the oil pump drive gear shaft) has been damaged for some reason in the past and causing the leak.

I also noticed on my ofh, the pressure release bolt was leaking and it looks like it was over tightened. I'm going to put a small shim to raise my warm oil pressure above 6psi. While I'm in here, is there a way to check for internal leaks or is that not a thing? We kind of talked about it earlier in the thread. I appreciate all the help your giving me. This is all new to me.

What possibly cause low oil pressure inside of block is balance shaft oil feed ports or/and oil squirter check valves. It's a good chance to inspect since the oil pan is off now. Check if the balance shaft oil feed ports are surely blocked off and the oil squirter check valves are not internally stuck wide open and if return smoothly. And of course, should inspect the oil pump itself, too.
Your OFH looks ported too much. My guess is that's the cause of the low oil pressure at idle. Try another unported OFH may be a good idea, if possible.

 

[jpmxrider489]

Here is what I found in the oil pump.

 

[pauleyman]

That entire pump is bad. Are you pulling this motor down?

 

[DSMPT]

Here is what I found in the oil pump.

Too worn in one side, maybe you had too much tension on the timing belt. I guess the leak was from the sprocket seal since probably it doesn't sit in center anymore. Maybe this was causing the low pressure, too.