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Spyder No fuel or spark on my 2g spyder

Tforshee67

Probationary Member
6
4
Feb 26, 2022
Columbia, Tennessee
So, I wanted to get into the DSM world as soon as I could and traded my firebird for a 2g gs spyder. After dailying it for about a month I hit a speed bump pretty hard and the car no longer gets spark or fuel. Any help is appreciated. I replaced cam and crank sensors, ecm, and checked all relays & fuses but made no progress.
 

waltah

Proven Member
306
128
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
So, I wanted to get into the DSM world as soon as I could and traded my firebird for a 2g gs spyder.
A truly excellent first step. I sold an '88 Fiero for cash for my '95 GS-T last summer and never looked back!
After dailying it for about a month I hit a speed bump pretty hard and the car no longer gets spark or fuel. Any help is appreciated. I replaced cam and crank sensors, ecm, and checked all relays & fuses but made no progress.
Okay, to clarify: You were driving, hit a speed bump, and ... car stalled and ...?

1. Did the car stall? Or did it drive okay until you stopped and then you couldn't restart?

2. Does the car crank?

Assuming it cranks but doesn't start and you've found neither fuel nor spark, does CE light and then go out when you turn on ignition? If it does, have you looked for CE codes?

If you have no codes this is a case for a through physical exam: Maybe the speed bump jarred something loose or damaged it causing a short or something like that. With both fuel and spark gone bye-bye I'd check all the fuses, then go over all the plugs on the engine looking for 'fell out,' 'wire torn loose' or something like that. If nothing found yet then I'd get the car on stands and go over the underside -- especially if you think it might have hit the ground. Fuel lines and pump wiring are well protected (at least on stock cars) but they're under there.
Throwing parts at it is an expensive way to diagnose.
Can't be said too often. My problem with it is that parts replacement goes according to what parts can be replaced -- not 'what's wrong with my car.' So you will only spot a broken off wire by accident. Also -- and this has bitten me a few times -- I break other stuff changing the parts, often without knowing. And of course it takes time and money. Spares are a very good thing but when you are crapoot, diagnosis is the way to go.
I've been waiting to see this link turn up again ever since I saw it the first time and forgot to bookmark. There are good hints there. The problem I have is that there are so many that are inapplicable to most specific cases that you need judgement to use the thing. It would be better as a tree that quickly isolates the problem to a specific area/system before getting into details. It should use as few tools as possible. The suggestion to use starting fluid to see if the fuel system is at fault is ideal -- it's simple and it's 100%.

And it should use your knowledge of the car and the situation to the maximum: A car you bought yesterday from a slightly weird dude isn't quite the same troubleshooting job as one you've driven and maintained yourself for years that was running well but wouldn't start this AM. 'Won't start in the AM after the first hard freeze this year' is not 'won't start when leaving Wal-Mart on a warm afternoon.' 'Stumbles when starting if hot' isn't the same diagnostic issue as 'no fuel in the rail' even though both are likely fuel system problems -- a generic 'diagnose fuel system problems' approach isn't efficient.

That and $3 (plus tax) will get you a cup of coffee ... but refills are free.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
7,976
2,596
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
And it should use your knowledge of the car and the situation to the maximum: A car you bought yesterday from a slightly weird dude isn't quite the same troubleshooting job as one you've driven and maintained yourself for years that was running well but wouldn't start this AM. 'Won't start in the AM after the first hard freeze this year' is not 'won't start when leaving Wal-Mart on a warm afternoon.' 'Stumbles when starting if hot' isn't the same diagnostic issue as 'no fuel in the rail' even though both are likely fuel system problems -- a generic 'diagnose fuel system problems' approach isn't efficient.

That and $3 (plus tax) will get you a cup of coffee ... but refills are free.
This right here. That speaks volumes. What do you reasonably know?? (assume) but it's an educated assumption vs you have no history of the car.
Generally in diagnostics I go look and figure out what I KNOW. Not what I assume or guess at. I look, wiggle, touch, get out the meter etc etc. A visual inspection or worse an assumption based on some other action does not tell you a fact. It gives you an assumption. Objectively test stuff and you will know what is what instead of guessing.
 

Tforshee67

Probationary Member
6
4
Feb 26, 2022
Columbia, Tennessee
Sorry for the inactivity on my own thread. I have 3 children and recently switched jobs and have been having trouble finding time for the car.

As for the history of the car, it has been in several different hands before myself. The first (I'm assuming) had a lot of work done to the car engine wise. Shortly after, he destroyed the wiring to the radio. Then he sold the car to the shop he got work done at. The person I got the car from got it from the shop owner only months after he got it and nothing was done to it by either person.

I got it lowered, about 2in off the ground in the front. Hence the speed bump issue. I am certain it hit the ground. I will go over the link listed above and respond again shortly. I did check coil packs and they are getting 12v but not sending power to the plugs. As for fuel, there is no power getting to the pump. I have checked relays and fuses and found no issues and assumed it was security related after replacing cam and crank sensors and ICM/transistor unit? New to that specific part. Replaced ECM and got nothing.

I do appreciate the hospitality and help from all of the guys on this forum, you are by far more helpful than those on 3rdgenforums regarding my Firebird.
@pauleyman
@waltah

It does crank also sorry
 
Last edited by a moderator:

waltah

Proven Member
306
128
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
Sorry for the inactivity on my own thread. I have 3 children and recently switched jobs and have been having trouble finding time for the car.
I've got two kids in their 40s and they still make it difficult to prioritize my cars ...
As for the history of the car, it has been in several different hands before myself. The first (I'm assuming) had a lot of work done to the car engine wise. Shortly after, he destroyed the wiring to the radio. Then he sold the car to the shop he got work done at. The person I got the car from got it from the shop owner only months after he got it and nothing was done to it by either person. I got it lowered, about 2in off the ground in the front. Hence the speed bump issue. I am certain it hit the ground. I will go over the link listed above and respond again shortly.
That sounds almost exactly like my parts car -- except the 'lowered' was my driver.

Hang in there and we'll sort things out as time permits.
I did check coil packs and they are getting 12v but not sending power to the plugs. As for fuel, there is no power getting to the pump. I have checked relays and fuses and found no issues and assumed it was security related after replacing cam and crank sensors and icm/transistor unit? New to that specific part. Replaced ecm and got nothing.
When you turn on the ignition does the CEL come on and then go off in 5 seconds? With the symptoms you've got that's a fork in the diagnostic road because until the ECU revs up and says 'hello' nothing else will happen.
I do appreciate the hospitality and help from all of the guys on this forum, you are by far more helpful than those on 3rdgenforums regarding my firebird.
Bar none this is the best forum I've been on.
 

Tforshee67

Probationary Member
6
4
Feb 26, 2022
Columbia, Tennessee
The cel does turn on for 5 sec then turns off, I have tried to run codes but the car throws none
 

waltah

Proven Member
306
128
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
Okay, you do have a CEL and it goes out with no codes. How do you know that there's no fuel and no spark?
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
809
345
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
The no spark and no fuel may be related as simply as a bad main fuse or partially disconnected wire harness plug at the firewall, so don’t over think it.

There are relays behind the radio that must be plugged in in order for the ignition and fuel to work, so check and see if they jarred loose during your impact.

Wanted to make sure you were aware of this Spyder Specific section of the forums:


This will discuss a weak point of Spyder GS’s as far as possible source of no power to the fuel pump:

 

waltah

Proven Member
306
128
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
The no spark and no fuel may be related as simply as a bad main fuse or partially disconnected wire harness plug at the firewall, so don’t over think it.
You're right of course. But no car ever got broken by over-thinking either. This car has been through two or three owners without really getting well and in fact it appears at least a couple of things got broken. Thinking is cheap and will never trash anything new.

Particularly with cars that have a squirrely history it's good to go methodically, looking for proof before picking up a wrench.

Re-reading the comments above I see the answer to my question about 'no fuel' -- if the check connector doesn't have voltage there's no fuel. Spark is not so clear: Tforshe do you mean you laid the spark plugs on top of the engine and no sparks were visible? Or ???

If there is forsure no spark then this is a good reference:


The theory discussion applies to all but note the separate 2.4L diagram at the end. I would check fusible link #4. If that's okay then crank the car and listen when you stop for the click of the MFI relay turning off. (10 seconds or so and easy to hear.) If you hear that you have further narrowed the problem area.

Then I think it's time to do as DogWhistle suggests and look at the MFI relay, the fuel pump relay and the fuel pump module. If the problem isn't obvious (connector hanging loose ...) then the link gives the info you need to diagnose the problem which is likely in this area.
 

Tforshee67

Probationary Member
6
4
Feb 26, 2022
Columbia, Tennessee
I took a spark tester (idk what it is called it is like a circuit tester I guess) to the coils and they are pushing absolutely nothing but receiving 12v. I will look at the above links and diagrams, thank you all very much and I will respond soon with the results.
 

Tforshee67

Probationary Member
6
4
Feb 26, 2022
Columbia, Tennessee
@waltah
@pauleyman
@DogWhistle
So sorry for the late response to you all. I was able to find the problem and it will be running this afternoon. I looked closer at my crank position sensor and noticed some cracks in it. Upon closer inspection I removed it and found that the magnet was the only thing holding it together. A rock got in and demolished it as well as destroyed my trigger plate. I feel stupid for overlooking this and dumping money into the car but I believe it was still worth the effort. Thank you all for the amazing help and hospitality, It is greatly appreciated. If anyone knows a good place to get a new timing cover, please let me know!
 

waltah

Proven Member
306
128
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
I looked closer at my crank position sensor and noticed some cracks in it. Upon closer inspection I removed it and found that the magnet was the only thing holding it together. A rock got in and demolished it as well as destroyed my trigger plate. I feel stupid for overlooking this and dumping money into the car but I believe it was still worth the effort. Thank you all for the amazing help and hospitality, It is greatly appreciated. If anyone knows a good place to get a new timing cover, please let me know!
This is excellent!

There are timing covers on eBay from time to time. Sometimes used, sometimes new.
Edit: Check me on this experts, but I think the fuel pump relay is turned on first by the ignition switch start voltage to the ECU. Once the CAS signal is received (engine is spinning) that holds the FP relay on. If that's right then this could have been diagnosed by putting a meter on the FP check connector and noting voltage while cranking but not thereafter meaning the FP relay works but the ECU isn't acting on a signal from the CAS indicating that the engine is spinning. So either CAS, wiring, or ECU problem.

Right or wrong?

EDIT: I just tripped over the answer to that for 2g turbo cars: Per the manual, When the starter motor is engaged the MFI and Fuel Pump relays are turned on. If the ECM does not receive crankshaft pulses within about 1 second these relays are deenergized. So on these cars at least if you hook a voltmeter to the fuel pump check connector and it gets voltage for a second when you turn the key to START and the voltage then goes off, check your crank position sensor and wiring. Unfortunately I don't have a Spyder manual.
 
Last edited:

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
809
345
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
According to the electrical manual it's there.

We'll find out soon. Fuel filter replacement is coming up in the next couple weeks.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
7,976
2,596
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Are you familiar with the location in the first place? They aren't easy to find. The connector is taped to another harness and it appears to have no function. It's a single female spade lug connector if memory serves.
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
809
345
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
Are you familiar with the location in the first place? They aren't easy to find. The connector is taped to another harness and it appears to have no function. It's a single female spade lug connector if memory serves.
Thanks, but yes. These were accessed more than once while modifying our 4G63 cars. We’ll look again when we change the fuel filter soon. Fortunately, the fuel pump — which has been replaced and upgraded — has not been a problem on the Spyder GS. Now, finding a new hose the thread onto the pump hangar? That’s another story…
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
7,976
2,596
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Thanks, but yes. These were accessed more than once while modifying our 4G63 cars. We’ll look again when we change the fuel filter soon. Fortunately, the fuel pump — which has been replaced and upgraded — has not been a problem on the Spyder GS. Now, finding a new hose the thread onto the pump hangar? That’s another story…
You can always adapt another hose. People have been using bulkhead fittings, an hoses etc for years. If you have to have a hose sometimes you just have to make one. If the fittings are good a good hose shop can make one also.
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
809
345
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
You can always adapt another hose. People have been using bulkhead fittings, an hoses etc for years. If you have to have a hose sometimes you just have to make one. If the fittings are good a good hose shop can make one also.
That's what we wound up doing: Using the end of the factory hose and adapting to a new flex section.
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
809
345
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
According to the electrical manual it's there.

Yes. Found it. The fact that it was more than halfway over to the driver’s side didn’t make it easy to find. It was, per usual, taped to the harness, but behind the intake manifold. We were used to seeing them closer to the battery on our 4G63’s.
 
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