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2G No boost pressure/ 20g with EWG

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
ISSUE:
I recently installed a USED 38mm MVS with a new bull fab open dump O2 housing and "new/rebuilt" 20g turbo setup (turbo came from Jeremiah Morrow.)
-Currently I am not able to reach more than 1 PSI of boost pressure at any point in the RPM band. it runs smooth and strong like an NA 4G63T just missing a turbo. No chugging, or loss of power through the RPM band. I'm lost on other issues and looking for other opinions.

Installed parts during this process:
-new VRFS Front mount
-1g Dodge Mod BOV
-freshly tested 560 evo injectors
-Evo 8 fuel pump (I did the rewire as well prior)
-20g MHI turbo
-Alan Bull Fab 02 housing with open dump
-Used Tial 38 MVS
-ARP manifold studs
-gasket on head-manifold
-gasket from manifold to turbo
-O2 manifold gasket


What I have tried or tested with no results:
-I have done 13+ boost leak tests and I can't find a single leak any more at this point.
-I bench tested the EWG and it seems in my eyes to be fine. no physical damage on the diaphragm, 13 PSI spring, top ports are open
-verified the 1g BOV to be working properly
-verified the turbo is spinning freely
-verified no exhaust leaks that i can see or hear
-verified the Tial fire ring is present
-I have found the fire ring doesn't seat tight meaning it will move in and out with bench tested pressure and me pushing on it.
-after a 30 min drive home, no exhaust traces around the turbo system, manifold, head, or O2 housing, not even in the open dump (thinking if it were stuck open, it would have exhaust traces in there.
-re-installed the 450 stock injectors
-smoke tested the exhaust system to test for leaks

Anyone have some other thoughts on this? its a new one for me in the DSM world so its been racking my brain for the last 4 days.


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AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
yes, BLTing at the turbo inlet i can't find any more leaks. and the turbo builder swears up and down its EWG related and not the turbo. he has offered to send it back to him for testing, but feels its a waste of time. i'm just at a loss here since Tial says wg looks good from video and pictures that they can see. i have a new fire ring and diaphragm on the way in hopes that is the issue.
 

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
i agree it sounds like a big ol leak, but you would think i would:
a) find it in a BLT
b) it wouldn't drive as smooth and nice as it does through the full rpm band in all gears even under heavy load
c) vacuum is 19-21 and idles the same there too.
d) i have pulled the turbo intake off and visually seen the turbines moving to verify no hang up (cold side)
 

Vegas Smith

20+ Year Contributor
5,035
2,906
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
I think your closest bet is the fire ring. If it doesn't seat correctly then you'll get a bunch of exhaust bypassing the turbo.
 

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
my question on the fire ring is this, wouldn't a leak produce exhaust soot that would be visible in either the dump tube, or around the EWG flanges. the dump tube is literally squeaky clean still and the O2 housing only has heat color from burning in.
 

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
Also just to note and reference, email response from Tial support about my issue, which again makes me look beyond the EWG..... again. FML:

I'm sorry you're experiencing problems with this item. Thanks for the clear photos and the video, which I was able to view.


The issue you're describing would be highly abnormal for a wastegate to cause, unless several of the things you've already checked were present, but just to summarize.


First, the valve seat (which is often called a 'fire ring'), should rest against the valve face and stand proud of the v-flange by about 2.2mm when the wastegate is assembled, but not installed. When assembled against the corresponding v-flange, you'll note that that protrusion engages with a corresponding feature on the v-flange, which not only aligns and seals the area, but also provides for about a 1.2mm preload when the clamp is installed and tightened.


That preloading feature serves to take up any clearance, but, as well, acts to align the spring and cup faces within the unit, as it acts as a final preload.


With the wastegate uninstalled, though, the seat can move freely, so, for example, during the action shown in the video, it's normal to see the valve, then the seat, move further away, then close to the v-flange, as you lift the valve and allow it to close.


That's a long explanation to say that "yes, this is normal behavior during static testing".


From the video, it seemed like you were using a version of our Static Testing Instructions, which can be found here: http://tialsport.com/documents/Wastegate%20Static%20Testing.pdf


There's also a companion video here:
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Ultimately, if you're performing this testing, or something similar, and the wastegate is operating correctly, and, of course, you're also working with the valve seat in place, it's unlikely that the issue is related to the wastegate, but it could be related to either external control, or some other issue that would create low boost, so if it is hitting all of these test points, it would mean that you'll need to continue your diagnosis.


One simple A-B test would simply be to remove the signal hose for the wastegate (lower port) and just plug the hose. Testing in this manner will confirm if the wastegate is fully closed and not allowing bypass, so you would expect uncontrolled boost pressure with the hose disconnected.


If the unit does not meet the specifications for this testing, please let me know, of course.
Best Regards,
Mike Franke

Tech Support
 

Vegas Smith

20+ Year Contributor
5,035
2,906
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
It's surely a bizarre problem.You're right that you should see soot on the ring and I can confirm that when I had a fire ring issue the car made a ton of boost and displayed soot.
 

JusMX141

Moderator
15,120
1,188
Dec 13, 2005
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
At first glance it would appear the turbo was made from a 14B CHRA except the compressor housing and turbine housing are Chinese. That's not necessarily a bad thing assuming the rest of it was built well, but you can't just cut the flapper arm off inside the housing and call it good...pressurized exhaust will leak around the flapper bushing and the arm because it's designed to be downstream of the pressure. The proper way to set this up is to remove the flapper arm altogether and weld the hole in the housing shut to plug any potential leaks, then port the wastegate hole to the max to control boost. None of this has been done to your turbo.


This one's the real winner: the turbo was built with a reverse-rotation TD05HR turbine so obviously it's not going to make boost whatsoever. It's not a wastegate issue, not a boost leak anywhere- there's no chance this thing would ever make boost because the turbine blades are literally facing the wrong direction. This is not an error that ANY experienced builder should make, ever. Other issues include the compressor nut is installed upside-down with the machined face of the nut facing away from the compressor wheel which can raise stackup unbalance levels once the shaft is torqued.

I highly recommend returning this thing for a full refund because the builder obviously has no clue what they're doing and to go any further would be a total disaster. Buy yourself something that's actually built and balanced properly...hell a $200 knockoff 20G from eBay would be an upgrade at this point in the sense that at least it would work as intended for a while.
 

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
now I have to try and work with the seller for either a refund or making it right.

Anyone know if Jeremiah Morrow is on tuners?

So... if it were reverse rotation, wouldn't the turbine "not" spin? or am i just not fully understanding this?
 
Last edited:

randman2011

10+ Year Contributor
530
254
Feb 26, 2012
Indianapolis, Indiana
The wheels would still spin freely. They will just deflect exhaust gas instead of engaging and performing work, if that makes sense. It would be the same as if someone installed a reverse rotation turbine housing onto a normal CHRA. It will spin freely but it won't actually do anything useful once installed.
 

AgntorangeDSM

15+ Year Contributor
280
8
Oct 31, 2005
Sioux Falls, South_Dakota
JusMX141: i sent you a message looking for a turbo. let me know if you have anything since this thing is down for the time being.
-Also, thank you all for the responses. it appears the turbo was built incorrectly and i now have a possible paper weight!
 
Last edited:

randman2011

10+ Year Contributor
530
254
Feb 26, 2012
Indianapolis, Indiana
Anyone know if Jeremiah Morrow is on tuners?
Assuming that you're not talking about the early 19th century governor of Ohio, it seems as though he's only active on Facebook. I see references to his work across the internet beginning in 2016. Apparently his thing is throwing the 20g compressor into a 16g. I see a lot of those around with his name attached.
 

Eclipse5150x

Proven Member
97
37
Aug 3, 2020
Perris, California
You want a good turbo with attention to care and quality? You get in touch with Justin W. Aka JusMX141. His work is well known in the DSM community. I too am in the process of buying a 20g from him. Best of luck. Get your money back for that turbo. Keep us updated as I want to hear what they have to say
 
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