New super efficient/higher hp waterpump/impellar....interest?

[trailortrashtsi]

I want to start out by saying the purpose of my post is NOT to sell anything from any anywhere to anyone. I am merely posting this as a means to research what you guys think about an idea, and hopefully get a good discussion going, so please dont flame me. For the record I own an 03 WRX and a 91 Talon TSi.

I work for a respectable engineering comany, we mostly make 2 stroke engine intake's and other related motorcycle, atv, watercraft and snowmobile parts. One of our good sellers is our water pump's and impellars for motorcycles.

Would anyone here be interested in a new higher flowing, more efficient water pump plus impellar for the 4g63T engine?

There will be an increase of HP and yes we will have Dyno charts to prove it as we do with all of our other products. On the subaru forum I claimed as a guesstimate of 10hp due to a cooler running engine.

Let me clear up some things to start out with, we will not be pushing the radiator past its peak capicity. We will be designing the water pump with weight in mind as well as the physical size being no bigger them Mits. oem. A popular misconception is that the longer the coolant stays lurking around in the radiator, the cooler it will get, this is untrue. The faster the coolant is being pushed (up to the limitation of the radiator) the better cooling you will get! The design intent will be in the internal cavity of the water pump along with the fins on the impellar.

Any interest in better cooling systems, is it worth the venture, let me know!! I didnt want to post the company so if your interested let me know if its ok to post the website you guys can check out or you can just pm me, thanks!

 

[DSMJim]

I think it's a good idea. Making a more efficient cooling system and lighter parts that are part of the rotating mass has been proven over and over again as a benefit.

The problems I can immediately foresee are plenty:

1) Trying to get DSM people to try something new is almost impossible. Many are stuck on the traditional path of upgrades which is proven yes, but is used as a reason to not try anything new. (are we all still using 16G's?)

2) Everybody will want dyno charts to prove more HP as a result. Even when you produce them, they will claim they are skewed or tainted somehow and not believe you anyways.

3) If you run into any type of problem anywhere in the production process and somebody finds out your product will instantly be a piece of crap forever even though you fixed that problem 3 years ago and will forever be bashed on the internet.

I for one love to see new ideas and new products pop up. There are always ways to make something better/more reliable. However with so many people ready to jump onto the "you suck" bandwagon it's hard to win over people to a new product.

I say go for it, you never know what you will end up with.

 

[pneumo]

That sounds like a good way to cure any overheating issues with large FMIC's. If you can make it as durable as OEM or better I think you'd have a winner.

 

[talonted_one]

I would buy one today...but I am poor.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

I would be very interested in an electric water pump.

 

[Rick@AP]

Originally posted by KGB Pilot125
I would be very interested in an electric water pump.

Second this.
This is the only water pump mod that I would even consider. The stock pump, with a little slight porting work, flows more than enough to do the job. Not having to turn that pump with the crank however would be a much bigger benefit and would giver larger gains than not having a more efficent propeller.

I'm actually shocked someone has built one already for the DSM crowd.

 

[ph3r3d]

sounds like a good idea

i'd buy one if the HP gain was proven

 

[Cablefed]

Good idea, however most people are'nt just going to buy one and bolt it on. You have to do a timing belt at the same time or a new engine build to put one on. I always look at it from an installation point. I know I would'nt buy one unless I was replacing a faulty water pump, timing belt, or doing a new rebuild simply because of installation headaches.

 

[autronicDSM]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/car_care/2002/11/sema02_wrapup/index5.phtml

I thought it was another company who made this but I didn't find anything. Anyways, I DO remember reading that you could adjust speed of the pump and therefore set whatever temperature you would like. I haven't heard anything since SEMA but then again I don't follow stuff anymore like I used to. Anybody has some more detail?

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

The stock pump stock flows to much...if you remove your radiator gap you generally have to put in a 5/8 inch restrictor to keep water slowed down or it flows so fast it wont cool down enough in the radiator. More flow is the last thing our water pumps need.

 

[trailortrashtsi]

Thanks for all the input, I am printing it all out and holding onto it. I am brining the Mitsu. pump into work this week and we will start flowing it. I will give updates as time progress's.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Rick@AP
Not having to turn that pump with the crank however would be a much bigger benefit and would giver larger gains than not having a more efficent propeller.

I'm actually shocked someone has built one already for the DSM crowd.

What do you plan on powering that water pump with? If it's the alternator, you've just moved the load from a water pump pulley to the alternator pulley, with no net gain. There ain't no free lunch.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
The stock pump stock flows to much...if you remove your radiator gap you generally have to put in a 5/8 inch restrictor to keep water slowed down or it flows so fast it wont cool down enough in the radiator.

Or, it's flowing through the block and head so fast that it cavitates and doesn't pick up enough heat. I doubt you can move it through the radiator quickly enough to not cool it more than needed.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

it happens on a shifter kart with a moto engine but thats spinning the pump too 12k RPM. anyways back to the electric idea I have been wondering if a jabsco type pump like used in water to air intercooler would work?

 

[pneumo]

Cavitation in the head? If that's happening you can reduce it by raising the pressure in the system. I haven't heard of it much in DSM's.

An electric water pump can have it's speed regulated so it's not spinning with crank speed. That works realy well on engines with 8k redlines. That's why an electric pump will make HP.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by Defiant
Or, it's flowing through the block and head so fast that it cavitates and doesn't pick up enough heat. I doubt you can move it through the radiator quickly enough to not cool it more than needed.

good point...but my point still stands...

electric water pumps do tend to dyno about 3-6 hp gains

 

[dsmturboawd]

how is this making more power? i mean the only way the water is cooled is with a radiator, and the speed the water goes through it has nothing to do with cooling.

i cant possibly see how coolant moving faster would net more power. seems like a bunch of bs to me.

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
how is this making more power? i mean the only way the water is cooled is with a radiator, and the speed the water goes through it has nothing to do with cooling.

i cant possibly see how coolant moving faster would net more power. seems like a bunch of bs to me.

Its the fact that your water pump would no longer be driven by an accessory belt is where the HP comes from. Kinda like swaping a clutch fan out for an electric one on a mustang or 240sx. It's no longer riding on the power from the crank but electical which is much easier to provide.

 

[Enigma_Man]

Powering something electrically actually is much less efficient than powering it via the crank. The energy to power the pump has to be first generated in the alternator (which isn't 100% efficient, and has a loss and friction), then take the alternator power, run it through a voltage regulator (which has an efficiency loss), and then take that power, and try to charge a battery with it (which has a loss) and then finally you have the power to run the motor, with its frictional losses. Rather than just driving it straight off the crank, which only has the frictional losses of the pump.

The reason there are benefits to running a water pump off of an electric motor is because the battery in the car acts as a buffer in a way. The power it takes to run the pump, when it's working hard can mostly all come from the battery (like during a dyno run), and then as the car idles after that, the alternator can slowly recharge what the battery has lost trying to keep up with the pump. That, and you can run the pump at a steady RPM all the time, rather than matching with engine speed, so you can keep it just fast enough, and the pump doesn't add more and more drag the faster the engine spins, so that's where the extra HP is from.

Using an electric motor is actually a lot _less_ efficient, and eventually has more parasitic loss on the motor, but it's spread out over time, so you actually can see power gains. You can't get free energy, but you can move around where and when you get the energy from, so that you have energy to spare when you want to romp on the loud pedal.

-Jesse

 

[dsmturboawd]

I missed the whole electric part. i skimmed it and misread.

 

[trailortrashtsi]

Originally posted by dsmturboawd
how is this making more power? i mean the only way the water is cooled is with a radiator, and the speed the water goes through it has nothing to do with cooling.

i cant possibly see how coolant moving faster would net more power. seems like a bunch of bs to me.

This is a very popular misconception. The faster the collant is pushed through up to the radiators cooling capacity will net cooler temp's. I know its hard to believe because it seems the opposite of true but if we go ahead with this project everything will be dyno proven or we simply wont sell it.

 

[autronicDSM]

I for one couldn't care less about dyno results, especially when it's from a roller dyno. Currently with 170*F thermostat I'm seeing about 200*F. If you could get that number down to say 180*F I'd be all over this like a fat kid on a cake.

 

[jpolizo]

Originally posted by trailortrashtsi
This is a very popular misconception. The faster the collant is pushed through up to the radiators cooling capacity will net cooler temp's. I know its hard to believe because it seems the opposite of true but if we go ahead with this project everything will be dyno proven or we simply wont sell it.

The reason this is true is that energy transfers faster the steeper the temperature gradient. Something 100 degrees hotter than ambient will cool off faster than something 50 degrees hotter. In English: a warm cup of coffee will cool down slower than a hot cup of coffee.

By pumping coolant faster through the radiator you are keeping the temperature of the coolant in the radiator higher, which means energy will transfer out of it more quickly.

That all said, have we determined cooling is a problem with our engines? I know it sometimes is because of FMIC installation. Perhaps this new water pump would provide better cooling in this circumstance.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

No, because regardless of what the reason is, if we allow unrestriced water flow through our engines, they over heat faster.....the pump flows enough.

 

[pneumo]

Unrestricted water flow through the engine causes overheating? I'd be very interested in hearing the theory behind this.