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New Everything but clutch won't shift

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Smoodle

Probationary Member
22
5
Apr 17, 2020
Sutherlin, Oregon
I installed a new ACT clutch kit which included clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing. https://www.maperformance.com/produ...te-performance-disc-clutch-kit-mitsubishi-dsm The problem is that my car will not allow me to shift into gears. I have bled the clutch countless times and even resurfaced the flywheel. I was told that I should replace the throwout bearing and pressure plate but that is what I replaced in the beginning? Here are some photos of the throw in the clutch fork and it looks like the pressure to to push the slave cylinder in isn't suffice. Any help is appreciated!

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Are those pics of the fork/space at rest or fully extended?
I had the same initial thought. My understanding is the the fork lever should be centered at rest, and that photo look like it is toward the pass. Side too much. I believe shimming the pivot ball is the fix to get enough travel back. Variance in flywheel, disc, and PP fingers, and t.o. Bearing thickness can all contribute to this condition. If your m.c. Rod adjustment is correct, then I suggest you search this forum for shimming the pivot.

P.s. I’m preparing to also replace “everything “, including a rebuilt trans, so I may end up in the exact same place. I haven’t found any information on a way to figure this out w/o first installing it all, snugging all the bolts, and checking the fork position. Correction could involve try multiple shims (thickness of washer) to get it right, and each time requires R&R that 130lb sucker under the car! Ooopmph!
 
I had the same initial thought. My understanding is the the fork lever should be centered at rest, and that photo look like it is toward the pass. Side too much. I believe shimming the pivot ball is the fix to get enough travel back. Variance in flywheel, disc, and PP fingers, and t.o. Bearing thickness can all contribute to this condition. If your m.c. Rod adjustment is correct, then I suggest you search this forum for shimming the pivot.

P.s. I’m preparing to also replace “everything “, including a rebuilt trans, so I may end up in the exact same place. I haven’t found any information on a way to figure this out w/o first installing it all, snugging all the bolts, and checking the fork position. Correction could involve try multiple shims (thickness of washer) to get it right, and each time requires R&R that 130lb sucker under the car! Ooopmph!
That’s where I’m at with my car. Just put on a new clutch, flywheel, TOB, master and slave cylinder, rebuilt trans. At first, the car wouldn’t even go into gear. Then I added a nut on that bracket where the MC rods threads in. That allowed me to put the car in gear, but clutch engages right on the floor. I bled the slave cylinder, but haven’t tried the engagement yet, as , while the car was up in the air, I decided to swap ARP head studs in. Once the valve cover came off, I figured I might as well put the new cams in. Figured if I’m doing that, I should replace the timing belt components while I’m in there. While doing that, discovered the car still has balance shafts, so now those gotta come out!! 🤣🤣 I’ll have everything out by today. Maybe back together by end of next week, as I have to assess what all I need and place an order
 
I think @TK's9d2TSi has shimmed his shift ball by accessing it thru the boot or one of the rubber vents. Hopefully he will chime in. :)
 
do you have a picture of the clutch fork without pressing the clutch pedal? Is it more the half way toward drivers side?
I got confused of the 1st couple of pictures of fork being pressed by clutch pedal
 
P.s. I’m preparing to also replace “everything “, including a rebuilt trans, so I may end up in the exact same place. I haven’t found any information on a way to figure this out w/o first installing it all, snugging all the bolts, and checking the fork position. Correction could involve try multiple shims (thickness of washer) to get it right, and each time requires R&R that 130lb sucker under the car! Ooopmph!

I think you are right that there is not really a way to figure it out ahead of time (figuring out if you will need a shimmed pivot ball) without assembling and snugging the bolts. In January I asked Tim Z if there was a way and he said "the only way you would see if you needed it is to install and measure/check the disengagement range."

What we were actually talking about was if I might need a "conical" throwout bearing, which is about 0.1" thicker than the standard throwout bearing, so it does kind of the same thing as shimming the pivot ball. That was when we were talking about installation of the Quarter Master clutch. He said "Personally I have only had to use this TOB on 2 setups in a couple hundred of these clutches sold. All the rest used the OEM TOB with no issues."

do you have a picture of the clutch fork without pressing the clutch pedal? Is it more the half way toward drivers side?
I got confused of the 1st couple of pictures of fork being pressed by clutch pedal
I don't get it either, what the conditions are for the 2 pics in post #1.
 
Yes I’ve shimmed it without taking the trans off but my fork sat dead center. Your fork looks to be way off to the left. Lmk if you want to try shimming it and I’ll explain how.

Btw, how many miles were on the flywheel? Maybe there’s too little material left on the flywheel causing everything to shift towards the front of the engine.
 
All my stuff is totally OEM replacement, although technically the clutch kit is Exedy, it's basically as close to stock as you can get without three diamonds on it. OEM 19lb flywheel resurfaced once. I would agree that spacing the trans side of the t.o. bearing or shimming the pivot are two methods of achieving the same goal. Either should allow proper clutch travel via the pedal. If there is a way to somehow unscrew the pivot through the boot window, I'd be interested to hear about it. Sounds infuriating with that little access. I'm trying to picture whether the clutch inspection cover opening gives any access, too. Wishful thinking?
 
Why would you shim if it was already centered? Engagement issue or something else?
Yes it engaged right off the floor so I added a 2mm washer (iirc). It’s been happy since. This is with the shim. Can’t find the pic before it was shimmed but it was dead center
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Found the pic before shimmed
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Yes it engaged right off the floor so I added a 2mm washer (iirc). It’s been happy since. This is with the shim. Can’t find the pic before it was shimmed but it was dead center

Found the pic before shimmed

Thanks for those pics. It's so cool to have the camera view straight on without anything in the way, like frame members and stuff!
So now as the clutch friction material wears thinner with miles, the fork will slowly move towards the right (towards the driver side) won't it?
I'm just thinking about why in the OEM way of thinking about it, the fork should start out in the middle when there are all new parts. It's to leave room for it to move as the friction surfaces wear. Right?
 
So in your case, even test fitting the trans wasn't enough. You had to get the car all the way put back (airbox, axles, whole shebang) and then noticed it needed a $0.50 washer to work right? I can see why you found a way to do it without repeating all that mess. How bad was it? Care to elaborate your tech?
 
To the OP, how old are the master and slave cylinders and when you bled the clutch hydraulics did you push the slave rod in several times as a last step? Meaning are you absolutely sure there are no leaks in it? Of course if the hydraulics were bad then the rod should be all the way to the driver's side. Is the rod standard or extended?
 
So now as the clutch friction material wears thinner with miles, the fork will slowly move towards the right (towards the driver side) won't it?
I'm just thinking about why in the OEM way of thinking about it, the fork should start out in the middle when there are all new parts. It's to leave room for it to move as the friction surfaces wear. Right?
Correct! As things wear, it needs to adjust itself via the relief port.
Also, your two photos don't look all that different. The OP pic on here it seems way off in comparison, to the "won't disengage" side of things.
Yeah I mentioned that. Possibly too little material left on the flywheel. And yes not too much difference between the two but that’s the difference of engagement off the floor vs 1.5 inches.
 
Smoodle: Your clutch is not disengaging because the fork can't move the PP fingers far enough. Your pic in post 1 looks like the fork might even be stopped against the tranny housing! Most likely either you don't have the correct parts that work with the correct geometry together, or the fork was not in the correct starting (engaged) position, or the resurfaced flywheel changed the fork position, or the slave wasn't bled the proper way.

Read this entire post about your problem but especially notice 1) extended rods do not fix the problem, and 2) the proper slave bleeding in "step two" (which most people don't know to do and makes a huge difference, {although I don't think this is your current problem}): https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/clutch-will-not-disengage.460266/#post-153268772. With the fork in the wrong position, often pivot ball shimming will correct it (which I think is your problem since the slave is pushing the fork all the way over already but it still won't disengage, so obviously the PP fingers aren't being pressed far enough). By fork in the wrong position I don't mean it's position in the window. I mean the fork's pivot point (on the pivot ball) is in the wrong spot (not close enough to the PP). Adding shims to the pivot ball will move that pivot point closer to the PP so the same fork's movement will push the PP fingers further (which is what you need with your current parts geometry). The fork can then be in the proper place in the window but the PP fingers will be pushed further. {Don't add too much shimming or the fingers will rub against the clutch disk springs.} But I've never had any luck trying to shim the pivot ball through the boot. The only way I've found is pull tranny and try different size washers under the pivot ball and note where the fork ends up in the window (both starting and final positions) when tranny is bolted back on.

IMO the Excedy TOB is a POS and wears prematurely (first hand knowledge twice). Always use a factory TOB. I got a new Excedy kit (which IMO also isn't that great, see pics in this link) and re-used my original Mitsu TOB because the one that came with it was so bad. 80k later my original Mitsu TOB is still going but I can't say that about the rest of the kit. See pics here of them: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/exedy-oem-clutch-kit-users-chime-in-please.446614/#post-153087287.
 
Hmm, As if I don't have enough to worry about. I'll compare the t.o. currently in my car with the Exedy kit one when I get the old trans pulled. If it looks way different, I'll consider getting a real OEM unit. The post you linked show obvious differences. Not that I'd look at one and judge it to be junk w/o knowing why. That post reminds me of the classic "only use OEM t-belt" mantra (which I did when I did mine, mostly out of fear, but a failure there is worse than a poor t.o.)
Thanks for the advice luv2rallye!
 
I "think" you can also get an NSK, which I "believe" is the same as the OEM. I got one at RockAuto for around $25 last year so it's worth looking into.

It's this one:


$20.79, even better, and if it's the same one I got, it has a resin sleeve.
 
Make sure to put in an OEM or OEM-level TOB while you're at it. Also check to see if the clutch fork is bent or very worn or the fulcrum is worn, and replace both if so. A bent fork could cause this. I'm rebuilding my trans, much, much more involved than what you'll need to do, and even though my '92 has under 78k miles I'm replacing the stock fork and fulcrum with a Competition Clutch set.
 
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