New Best: FP 3575 + AEM magic

[1990greenGSX]

Are you referring to this guy right here

ummmm...NO.. this should give that away.(copied from that guys profile) FPT67- 617 whp/504 ft/lbs - daily driven I said OUR.. as in SBRs cast housing.. It was really only meant for Leon.. he should have known what i meant

Mark
SBR

 

[Spyder FX]

My mistake Awesome numbers by Leons car btw

 

[1990greenGSX]

I see a lot of people focusing on this turbo, but the purpose of this thread was to praise “AEM’s magic” and not necessarily the turbo. So far, I am very happy with FP3575, but I do not feel like I have yet tapped its full potential…

Thats just it.. there is no Praise for the AEM here.. I mean not until i see something done with it, that someone else hasnt done yet with an easier set up... such as a VPC. If a VPC has run lower 9s.. why praise a AEM EMS for lower 10s? There are 1gs that have ran 10:60s no engine management at all. So changing Management and Turbo at the same time is tough, i know. But I am not impressed with a full stand alone system. I think there is soo much that can be done with out them.

oh yea.. the focus might be on the turbo b/c the title was FP3575 + “AEM’s magic” .. kinda makes u think about both i would assume..

Mark
SBR

 

[JohnTSI]

On a side note are you still 2.0L or 2.4 or 2.3 now?

 

[ITSME4G63]

Great numbers man! THat's so fawking fast, other people with more hp have gone slower than you, one question, How come you have this turbo and its not on the fp website?

 

[NDgsx]

Thats just it.. there is no Praise for the AEM here.. I mean not until i see something done with it, that someone else hasnt done yet with an easier set up... such as a VPC. If a VPC has run lower 9s.. why praise a AEM EMS for lower 10s? There are 1gs that have ran 10:60s no engine management at all. So changing Management and Turbo at the same time is tough, i know. But I am not impressed with a full stand alone system. I think there is soo much that can be done with out them.

Umm well Shep runs 8s, I can't think of anybody that did that in a AWD with a stock ecu.
What actual experience do you have with any standalone systems, aem, haltech, autotronic, accel, motec, etc?

 

[1990greenGSX]

Umm well Shep runs 8s, I can't think of anybody that did that in a AWD with a stock ecu.

EXACTLY---MId 8s... thats when you need a Standalone. If you go even faster.. then its time to praise the AEM or other unit for getting you there... not Mid 10s. thats my point.. How many other people have gone mid 9s or lower on a DSM?? 3.. thats right two on nitrous.. the other ...Curt Brown..no nitrous, a stock ecu and VPC. Unless u feel u are good enough to be in the top 3... why do u need it then?

maybe just turn that power switch up ... right nate?

What actual experience do you have with any standalone systems, aem, haltech, autotronic, accel, motec, etc?

hmmmmm where do i work again.... ok..so should know a little something about them ---I dont use it, I dont need it.. why run it my personal cars.(reasons already stated above)..I am not one of the top 3.

Mark
SBR

 

[GRNDSM]

>Thats just it.. there is no Praise for the AEM here.. I mean not until i see something
>done with it, that someone else hasnt done yet with an easier set up... such as a
>VPC. If a VPC has run lower 9s.. why praise a AEM EMS for lower 10s?

Why praise AEM? Lets see, I am stuck in high 10’s for over a year, install AEM, gain a LOT more tunability, discover some major fuel system deficiencies, which were masked by VPC, and run 10.30 (.41 sec improvement) on my FIST day of actually running it.

I am sorry if you do not consider that a success and a testament to AEM’s ability, but I do!

What I love most about AEM (and I am sure that this is true about most standalone systems), is that there is no “reverse logic” that you have to apply to VPC tuning. I no longer have to worry about what happens to my timing when I adjust fuel. I have actual control over both of them…

Do not get me wrong, I still think that VPC is great for people running cars with VE close to stock vehicles, but they do limit you.

>On a side note are you still 2.0L or 2.4 or 2.3 now?

John, I am still running a 2.0L motor.

 

[1990greenGSX]

Why praise AEM? Lets see, I am stuck in high 10’s for over a year, install AEM, gain a LOT more tunability, discover some major fuel system deficiencies, which were masked by VPC, and run 10.30 (.41 sec improvement) on my FIST day of actually running it.

I am sorry if you do not consider that a success and a testament to AEM’s ability, but I do!


well... maybe the question is why were u stuck in the high 10s with a VPC? when it can clearly run mid 9s?? is that the VPCs fault? or just a tuning issue. A testament to succes can also be putting a bigger turbo on a car for a higher MPH number?? is that a testament to the turbo or just a cover up for lack of tuning/ driving on the smaller one?

Do not get me wrong, I still think that VPC is great for people running cars with VE close to stock vehicles, but they do limit you.

But.. like I stated earlier.. Curts car was hardly stock.. and the VPC was fine for him. i know of customers who are running 10:60s with a stock ECU and a stock weight daily car that gets driven to DSM events . not trailered. (he is from the Va area if you are askin) No fancy Ecu systems.. just a chip.

Mark

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Why praise AEM? Lets see, I am stuck in high 10’s for over a year, install AEM, gain a LOT more tunability, discover some major fuel system deficiencies, which were masked by VPC, and run 10.30 (.41 sec improvement) on my FIST day of actually running it.

I am sorry if you do not consider that a success and a testament to AEM’s ability, but I do!


well... maybe the question is why were u stuck in the high 10s with a VPC? when it can clearly run mid 9s?? is that the VPCs fault? or just a tuning issue. A testament to succes can also be putting a bigger turbo on a car for a higher MPH number?? is that a testament to the turbo or just a cover up for lack of tuning/ driving on the smaller one?

Do not get me wrong, I still think that VPC is great for people running cars with VE close to stock vehicles, but they do limit you.

But.. like I stated earlier.. Curts car was hardly stock.. and the VPC was fine for him. i know of customers who are running 10:60s with a stock ECU and a stock weight daily car that gets driven to DSM events . not trailered. (he is from the Va area if you are askin) No fancy Ecu systems.. just a chip.

Mark

Bashing a product for the reasons you are giving is extremely shortsighted and narrowminded.

The VPC is a great product. I owned one. When most of these guys ran their best times, the VPC was the best tuning option available for a DSM. There were a few standalone options out there, but nothing with the level of use and tech/forum support of the AEM now.

I agree with what you are getting at: that most people do not need a standalone to run the numbers that most are. However, if people are running slower or as fast with an AEM than a VPC, then it is their (and their tuning abilities fault). Its like calling a 50 trim turbo crappy because the average owner runs high 12s with it now because everyone owns them and they're so popular.

Ask Curt Brown if the AEM was available 3-4 years ago(in its present most bugs worked out state ) what he would prefer to use on his race car? Last time I checked, his EVO had one

 

[1990greenGSX]

Bashing a product for the reasons you are giving is extremely shortsighted and narrowminded.

I am not bashing product by any means.. The AEM is truely nice.. But not many need it.. WHat i was getting at was saying i dont thin it was anything "magical" about AEM that got him a couple tenths faster.

The VPC is a great product. I owned one. When most of these guys ran their best times, the VPC was the best tuning option available for a DSM. There were a few standalone options out there, but nothing with the level of use and tech/forum support of the AEM now..

Curt was running these times Early this year still.. before he sold the car and went with the Evo and yes.. he is running an AEM.. but it was the fastest FULL weight daily Driven EVO at the shootout though.

I agree with what you are getting at: that most people do not need a standalone to run the numbers that most are. However, if people are running slower or as fast with an AEM than a VPC, then it is their (and their tuning abilities fault). Its like calling a 50 trim turbo crappy because the average owner runs high 12s with it now because everyone owns them and they're so popular..

Exactly my point.. I agree totally.

Ask Curt Brown if the AEM was available 3-4 years ago(in its present most bugs worked out state ) what he would prefer to use on his race car? Last time I checked, his EVO had one

i know.. i agreed earlier in the post.. But they are two totally different cars...

None he is a slowboI salesman, I thought that was obvious by his posts. The climate of this threads makes you think the slowboI crew is trying to discredit Leon's New accomplishments. Because he dumped the slowboI turbo for a better turbo from forced performance.:

Not True.. we had first oppurtunity to give Leon the "Big Kahuna"... and i am not discrediting his Time.. I still will say congrats on going faster ... Just question The "magic" of AEM for THOSE times..

Mark SBR

 

[GRNDSM]

First of all, thanks again everyone!

>Just question The "magic" of AEM for THOSE times..

The “magic” was in reference to “VPC Magic” that people often bring-up. The fact that is: VPC works much better than it should, given its specifications. It does many things that defy conventional wisdom and therefore people often refer to it as “VPC Magic” (because they can’t explain why it works as well as it does).

AEM EMS does what it supposed to do and it does very well. There is nothing “magical” about it. I thought this was more of a “inside DSM community” joke rather than an actual attribute.

Lets not make this a SBR vs PTE vs FP thread. (if you guys want to start comparing turbos/housings start another thread in the tech section).

But I will say that SBR housings were developed long before PTE housings were released, so neither one is nock off of the other.

Edit: One more point, SBR housings were originally designed to work with GT turbos (selling for around $1300), where as PTE housings were originally designed to work with conventional Garrets (selling for around $900). There were two completely different turbos form the very beginning.

 

[1990greenGSX]

First of all, thanks again everyone!

>Just question The "magic" of AEM for THOSE times..

The “magic” was in reference to “VPC Magic” that people often bring-up. The fact that is: VPC works much better than it should, given its specifications. It does many things that defy conventional wisdom and therefore people often refer to it as “VPC Magic” (because they can’t explain why it works as well as it does).

AEM EMS does what it supposed to do and it does very well. There is nothing “magical” about it. I thought this was more of a “inside DSM community” joke rather than an actual attribute.

Lets not make this a SBR vs PTE vs FP thread. (if you guys want to start comparing turbos/housings start another thread in the tech section).

But I will say that SBR housings were developed long before PTE housings were released, so neither one is nock off of the other.

I agree totally.. Thanks for discussing this leon... and once again congrats, and good luck for even faster times next year

 

[NDgsx]

Before I get into the rest of my post, I forgot to say congrats Leon. Those are great times, I better see 9s next season . By the way do you still have the TCEs? If so did you find a 15" wheel that will clear the 12.2s? I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to get for next season, but I really don't want to take those brakes off.

hmmmmm where do i work again.... ok..so should know a little something about them ---I dont use it, I dont need it.. why run it my personal cars.(reasons already stated above)..I am not one of the top 3.

Just because you work for a company that modifies DSM does not mean you are the one tuning cars. For all I know you might be the guy assembling engines, wouldn't mean that you have tuned many cars personally. See what I mean?
It's not quite clear from your post, but it sounds like you haven't personally tuned a car with a standalone. If you had you probably would have seen the advantage of one already. Now I am not going to sit here and say that you can not achieve a good state of tune at WOT with piggyback computers, you can. Tuning for WOT is actually one of the easiest parts of tunning anyway, low throtle driveability/idle is harder.
The bad thing about actually tunning with the piggyback stuff drawback was described well by Leon. You have to adjust other things to get desirable timing advance. Say you are getting too much timing advance, you have two options, retard timing with the CAS which pulls timing everywhere and can cause startup problems or lower fuel pressure (then bump up the airflow signal to get into a timing map with less advance) which makes for a worse spray pattern and poor atomization at low loads. Many things that people do for WOT performance hinder driveability. With nothing to compare it too though many people don't realize how bad their car actually is.
With a standalone none of those compromises are ever required. You can achieve a great tune at high load, still idle perfectly, starts great, doesn't lug at low speeds, basically drives like it did from the factory (or better ).
Then when you start modifying things so that the volumetric efficency is different from stock (intake manifold, large cams, change in rod ratio, etc) tuning isn't as easy. You'll find that you may have to make large changes in fuel over 6.5k to keep the injector pulsewidth from tapering off.

Now as for people with eprom chips with modified maps, that's a WHOLE other discussion. That is not some piggyback crap and if done well can do what a standalone does. I've plaid around with burning chips some and the things you can do now make it just as adjustable as a standalone. When the dsmlink comes out for 1Gs I won't be recomending the AEM to almost all of my customers.

Bottom line, just because something "works" does not mean it is ideal. Just because people have run a time with a piggyback it does NOT mean that they achieved maximum potential of their car. Without swapping in a standalone with a well tuned map and running the car back to back (or dynoing) you can not say that the car went as fast as it could ever possibly go. WOT performance aside driveability with a heavy modified car and piggyback computers only ALWAYS suffers, no if ands or buts about it. I'm not saying a standalone is the right way to go for everyone, but refusing to try one because you don't run low 9s is some ass backwards logic.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Cleaned up this thread a little bit.


Congrats Leon

P.S. Leon we do have a "reply w/quote" button

 

[GRNDSM]

>If so did you find a 15" wheel that will clear the 12.2s?

Not could I not fit my 15" wheels with-in 12.2" rotors, Todd sent me a set of 11.7” brackets. and even those didn’t fit! But it was close, I am thinking of fabricating my own brackets for something like 11.6” rotors and then taking a grinder to my calipers. The problem is that at this point, I am not sure what rims/tires I am going to be running next year. So, I am just going to hold off on the brakes and continue to use 1G “small brakes”

 

[red91gst]

Before I get into the rest of my post, I forgot to say congrats Leon. Those are great times, I better see 9s next season . By the way do you still have the TCEs? If so did you find a 15" wheel that will clear the 12.2s? I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to get for next season, but I really don't want to take those brakes off.



Just because you work for a company that modifies DSM does not mean you are the one tuning cars. For all I know you might be the guy assembling engines, wouldn't mean that you have tuned many cars personally. See what I mean?
It's not quite clear from your post, but it sounds like you haven't personally tuned a car with a standalone. If you had you probably would have seen the advantage of one already. Now I am not going to sit here and say that you can not achieve a good state of tune at WOT with piggyback computers, you can. Tuning for WOT is actually one of the easiest parts of tunning anyway, low throtle driveability/idle is harder.
The bad thing about actually tunning with the piggyback stuff drawback was described well by Leon. You have to adjust other things to get desirable timing advance. Say you are getting too much timing advance, you have two options, retard timing with the CAS which pulls timing everywhere and can cause startup problems or lower fuel pressure (then bump up the airflow signal to get into a timing map with less advance) which makes for a worse spray pattern and poor atomization at low loads. Many things that people do for WOT performance hinder driveability. With nothing to compare it too though many people don't realize how bad their car actually is.
With a standalone none of those compromises are ever required. You can achieve a great tune at high load, still idle perfectly, starts great, doesn't lug at low speeds, basically drives like it did from the factory (or better ).
Then when you start modifying things so that the volumetric efficency is different from stock (intake manifold, large cams, change in rod ratio, etc) tuning isn't as easy. You'll find that you may have to make large changes in fuel over 6.5k to keep the injector pulsewidth from tapering off.

Now as for people with eprom chips with modified maps, that's a WHOLE other discussion. That is not some piggyback crap and if done well can do what a standalone does. I've plaid around with burning chips some and the things you can do now make it just as adjustable as a standalone. When the dsmlink comes out for 1Gs I won't be recomending the AEM to almost all of my customers.

Bottom line, just because something "works" does not mean it is ideal. Just because people have run a time with a piggyback it does NOT mean that they achieved maximum potential of their car. Without swapping in a standalone with a well tuned map and running the car back to back (or dynoing) you can not say that the car went as fast as it could ever possibly go. WOT performance aside driveability with a heavy modified car and piggyback computers only ALWAYS suffers, no if ands or buts about it. I'm not saying a standalone is the right way to go for everyone, but refusing to try one because you don't run low 9s is some ass backwards logic.

Theres only one thing you need to touch to get "desirable" timing advance.

At what point are you at low throttle driving in a race car?

Nate
SBR

Sorry to Hi-jack this thread with somtimes off-topic BS Leon

 

[1990greenGSX]

I'm not saying a standalone is the right way to go for everyone, but refusing to try one because you don't run low 9s is some ass backwards logic.

Now.. I am not refusing trying one until i run 9s.. I dont think it is needed until that point. What i am saying is if it has been done without it, its the persons ability to Tune. All i was saying i dont think 10:60s is anything "magical" that a piggyback system couldnt do.. I wasnt saying i think the AEM is worthless.. Just not worth the 1400.00 to run mid 10s. I know the differences of pulling timing, and then fuel and knock etc also get adjusted by the stock ecu. Its the level of your tuning ability that makes the difference. I dont think its backward logic.. just more economical.. why buy it if you dont need it.. Buy a Corkey Bell book and learn more knowledge instead I have built cars from the shell up. Obviously there is tuning required at that point .. Anyways.. Leon and I have solved this discussion. and what you are babbling about doenst even deal with what i was saying. How many people are like "man i have AEM EMS blah blah blah," but are running 11s.. who cares..at that point, i feel bad they didnt buy something else for the money that could make them a little faster.Yes AEM is nice and it is a great tuning tool. Is it NEEDED before 9s.. i dont think so. Am i saying not to use it until then no.. not at all. But dont brag about it being something great .. when you havent done anything great with it.. that was my point.. If u dont understand it. PM me.. rather than wasting the thread.


Mark
SBR

 

[EvolvingGST]

Wow thread went sour quick -.-;;; And congrats for running 10.3s again and again with the Green Machine on Weds. I heard you ran it while bogging, too bad I missed the runs. So it looks like your car has a lot of potential to run even faster. AND you were gonna sell it Just wanted to remind you.

BTW: I saw you change the axle the other day in the Galant VR4 I was the chinese kid with Greg "JoJo"

 

[ITSME4G63]

Can You tell me one thing, how did he get this turbo if its not for sale?

 

[rdrkt]

At what point are you at low throttle driving in a race car?

Nate the beauty of a standalone is that you can get GREAT driveability even with big cams, 950cc injectors, while make 550+ hp. Something you really don’t get with piggybacks.

 

[rdrkt]

Just to remind everyone.. Curt Brown went 9:40s with no nitrous a year ago.

And that car weighed how much? 2300lbs with driver? Makes a bit of a difference don’t you think?

Yes does slowboy make that turbo? You run mostly slowboi stuff right ?

well You are running a Slowboy Motor right? and didnt you run only 5 mph slower on a much smaller SBR GT-13 and only a VPC???

That is just sad to read man :thumbdown Jealous much?

 

[rdrkt]

I wasnt saying i think the AEM is worthless.. Just not worth the 1400.00 to run mid 10s. I know the differences of pulling timing, and then fuel and knock etc also get adjusted by the stock ecu. Its the level of your tuning ability that makes the difference. I dont think its backward logic.. just more economical.. why buy it if you dont need it..

Mark I am trying to understand your logic so bear with me. A boost controller, VPC, SAFC, and TMO ecu cost how much? And yet all of that stuff doesn’t give you an real control over timing ESPECIALLY in the bottom half of the map.

All i was saying i dont think 10:60s is anything "magical" that a piggyback system couldnt do..

Mark let me ask this. What is the fastest car you built that stayed together for a few season to put down some decent times? I ask this because my own car has gone though a few changes. I was pulling 117 traps on pump gas in a heavy car back in the day with a TMO ecu, hacked 1g MAS and safc for tuning. Now I run 126 traps in the same heavy car on pump gas and I run a Haltech.

I have seen first hand the difference in idle, driveability and reliability that a standalone can give you. Its rare when you see mid 10 sec VPC cars drive an hour to the track. More often than not they just drive on and off the trailer. Without timing control you aren’t going to get very far on pump gas. While that might not be a concern for a “race” car or a weekend warrior car there is no need to limit yourself like that. There are better solutions out there and they really don’t cost that much more.

But dont brag about it being something great .. when you havent done anything great with it.. that was my point.

Mark are you suggesting that Leon is doing that in this thread?

 

[rdrkt]

Can You tell me one thing, how did he get this turbo if its not for sale?

Fast guys get the new shit first so they can make big power and drum up demand. That isnt a hard concept to understand is it?

 

[ITSME4G63]

Fast guys get the new shit first so they can make big power and drum up demand. That isnt a hard concept to understand is it?

No it ####ing isnt, thanks for answering, maybe it was fawking obvious to you, but its always best to ask