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LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
I am hoping that somebody with extensive short block knowledge can help me with an issue I have. I'll try to keep this as short as I can, but I also want to specify exactly what problem I'm having, so it's gonna be kind of long, I apologize ahead of time!

So I bought a '97 GSX, had it shipped to me, immediately stipped the whole car down, inside and out, and spent roughly $30K - $35K on upgraded parts throughout the car. The only original parts that will still be on the car are for the most part, the body, chassis, some of the suspension components, the head (though heavily ported), and the 7 bolt block....plus some hoses and stuff like that......but anyways, besides that stuff, the rest of the parts will be new and better, upgraded parts.

I originally had not planned on stripping the short block down, so I didn't bother getting a 6 bolt block, because I don't know how to properly reassemble the short block internals, so I really didn'twanna mess with it. Then I began to realize that the lower end Manley pistons and Eagle rods, that were already in the block, were not going to be strong enough for my build. So of course, I started the tear down. Since I had already ordered several thousands of dollars worth of parts, specifically for a 7 bolt block, the 6 bolt was still out of the question. Mad at how much I had screwed myself in regards to that particular subject, I decided to make the best of the 7 bolt block I have and do the 2.3L stroker!

So I bought a Manley 100mm billet crank, Manley Turbo Tuff I-Beam Rods, and some really nice JE 85.5mm Pistons made for high boost and/or a lot of nitrous, I thought I was good to go! Then, while trying to save up the money to have somebody properly check all of the gaps, so I will know what exact main and rod bearings I need, I found the issue.

I told you all of that just so you will be aware of my platform. I am expecting to be sitting around 700hp-750hp at the crank without nitrous, and up to 1050hp-1100hp with the nitrous. I believe that to be a fairly accurate figure.

Now, heres the problem! I had just happened to be in my garage messing with something, and I looked down at my block.....must have been in just the right position and light, because I noticed something that I had not seen before! On the outside crank/main bearing saddle, on the side of the block that will be facing the passenger side of the engine bay, there is what looks almost like some very fine etching into the metal along one side of the saddle. I can just barely feel it, but I can definitely feel it, so there is in fact missing material to some extent.

When I first got the car it wasn't leaking at all from that spot, but it was also only pushing 353hp to the wheels and 323ft-lb at the time. I also see that the saddle that has damage is the only one of the 5 total that doesn't have an oil squirter or an oil galley. To be honest, I cant remember if there is a bearing that goes there or if the bare part of the crank rests on that spot.....the car has been torn apart for way too long haha! My question is, do you think this will cause any issues with the setup I will have? Any leaking or anything else? And of course, if it can or will cause issues, is there a way to fix it, or resurface it, or do I need to find another block?!

I have included a couple of pictures in this post, it was really hard to get a decent picture showing the damage really well, so I hope you are able to see it fairly well! Please let me know if this will cause any issues or not, as this is keeping me from being able to start reassembling everything! Also, as I had asked above, if it will cause problems, is there any way to properly fix it, as in a permanent solution, not a band-aid?! Sorry this was so long, just wanted whoever answers my question(s) to know exactly what I will be running and what kinds of force and pressure this spot will be seeing while running! I would SERIOUSLY appreciate any accurate info or advice, and I thank you very much for your time and your knowledge in advance!

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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,270
5,063
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
You need to check for CRANKWALK. That doesn't look good. Besides, if you are going to make the power you are wanting, you will want an aftermarket crank but that does no good if the block is compromised.
 

streetraceboi

Moderator
818
349
Sep 4, 2002
San Antonio, Texas
Add up all the money youve spent to build the bottom end. Now ask yourself if youre willing to risk all that money rolling the dice.....or find a block you dont have to question for a few hundred ;)
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,917
592
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
I’d sell the pistons and find a 4G64 block and buy some 86.5mm or 87mm pistons. You’ll get more displacement, and a block that’ll last a lot longer than a stroker block will. Plus, there will be no questions.


Otherwise, just grab a new block. Not worth the risk.
 

LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
I understand what you guys are saying, but nobody is answering my question! I am well aware of the other options, the problem is that I am now extremely tight financially and can't really afford to get a new block unless I really need to! I have had mixed reviews from people I know who are good mechanics, it's just that none of them have had extensive knowledge when it comes to the main bearing saddles, so they can't tell me for sure weather this can or will cause any issues or not. Thats why I posted this on here, I am needing some info from somebody who is very knowledgeable about this specific thing and can trll me if it will be fine or if I need a new block!

Add up all the money youve spent to build the bottom end. Now ask yourself if youre willing to risk all that money rolling the dice.....or find a block you dont have to question for a few hundred ;)
Yes, this is exactly why I am trying to get a professional answer on weather this can cause issues or not! As sad as it is to admit, I really don't have the few hundred bucks to get a new block......so I need to find out 100% for sure weather I will need a new one or not!

I’d sell the pistons and find a 4G64 block and buy some 86.5mm or 87mm pistons. You’ll get more displacement, and a block that’ll last a lot longer than a stroker block will. Plus, there will be no questions.


Otherwise, just grab a new block. Not worth the risk.
Not only would that cost a good chunk of money, the 4G64 block is not nearly as strong as the 4G63. I would be more worried about putting that much power through a 4G64 block than I would about this bearing saddle leaking!

You need to check for CRANKWALK. That doesn't look good. Besides, if you are going to make the power you are wanting, you will want an aftermarket crank but that does no good if the block is compromised.
There are zero signs of crankwalk, so thats not what cause this issue, I'm not sure what actually did! And yes, I do have a Manley billet 100mm crank already.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,270
5,063
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Put the crank and bearings in and look for interference. Flywheel bolts weren't touching the block were they?
Do you have a picture of the cap installed on that journal? It might shed more light on something you missed if we could see that.
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,917
592
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
Not only would that cost a good chunk of money, the 4G64 block is not nearly as strong as the 4G63. I would be more worried about putting that much power through a 4G64 block than I would about this bearing saddle leaking.

Not sure where you got this information, but the 4G64 has made 1000awhp. Just look at the evo world for plenty of examples of this as well as the dsm world. Both 2.4’s and 2.1 destrokers use these blocks with great results. The difference between the 4G64 and 4G63 is negligible. It’s bores are wider yes, but the block itself is 6mm taller and that’s it.


If you don’t have $100 to replace a block then not sure how you’re going to have money to support maintenance and racing costs on a high HP dsm.


You seem to not want any answer except one that supports your current desire so I’ll just give you the bad advice you want and say everything looks great on that block bro. Run it all day, I’m sure you won’t have a single issue at all that will completely ruin your rotating assembly and cost you thousands more in the long run. Send it. :thumb:
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
831
356
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
By professional advice, you must mean people that do engine builds daily.

You need to run this issue past the team @maperformance. They rebuild 4G63 7 bolts regularly.

PM me for their number and contact name.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,270
5,063
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
I would tell my customer I'd have to source a new block. I wouldn't put my time and a customers money into a problem AND I'd need to find out WHY that happened to the original block so it didn't happen to my work.
 

LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
Not sure where you got this information, but the 4G64 has made 1000awhp. Just look at the evo world for plenty of examples of this as well as the dsm world. Both 2.4’s and 2.1 destrokers use these blocks with great results. The difference between the 4G64 and 4G63 is negligible. It’s bores are wider yes, but the block itself is 6mm taller and that’s it.


If you don’t have $100 to replace a block then not sure how you’re going to have money to support maintenance and racing costs on a high HP dsm.


You seem to not want any answer except one that supports your current desire so I’ll just give you the bad advice you want and say everything looks great on that block bro. Run it all day, I’m sure you won’t have a single issue at all that will completely ruin your rotating assembly and cost you thousands more in the long run. Send it. :thumb:
I'm not saying that they can't handle a good amount of power, I am just saying that it is not as strong of a block as a 4G63. To be honest, I can't remember exactly what it is....maybe the block walls aren't quite as thick on the 64 as they are on the 63, I'm not sure. All I know is that from the time I had my first DSM back in 1999, yes, people were using the 64 block, but I have always been told that they won't hold as much power as the 63 will.

Either way, switching to a 4G64 would mean more work and replacing parts that I already have, such as the pistons for example. Thats just not something I am interested in doing at this point.
Not sure where you got this information, but the 4G64 has made 1000awhp. Just look at the evo world for plenty of examples of this as well as the dsm world. Both 2.4’s and 2.1 destrokers use these blocks with great results. The difference between the 4G64 and 4G63 is negligible. It’s bores are wider yes, but the block itself is 6mm taller and that’s it.


If you don’t have $100 to replace a block then not sure how you’re going to have money to support maintenance and racing costs on a high HP dsm.


You seem to not want any answer except one that supports your current desire so I’ll just give you the bad advice you want and say everything looks great on that block bro. Run it all day, I’m sure you won’t have a single issue at all that will completely ruin your rotating assembly and cost you thousands more in the long run. Send it. :thumb:
I'm not saying that they can't handle a good amount of power, I am just saying that it is not as strong of a block as a 4G63. To be honest, I can't remember exactly what it is....maybe the block walls aren't quite as thick on the 64 as they are on the 63, I'm not sure. All I know is that from the time I had my first DSM back in 1999, yes, people were using the 64 block, but I have always been told that they won't hold as much power as the 63 will.

Either way, switching to a 4G64 would mean more work and replacing parts that I already have, such as the pistons for example. Thats just not something I am interested in doing at this point.

As far as the block for $100, I guess you know a lot more people than I do, cause the cheapest I've ever found a block for was $300! And no, it's not that I can't come up with that amount, it's that I would much rather put that money somewhere else it is needed.

Last, I am not only wanting to hearva certain answer, what I am wanting is for a professional, certified mechanic, who has vast knowledge of the block and the bearing saddles, to tell me if they believe this can or will cause any issues.....not just DSM guys opinions. I can get opinions all damn day, but thats not what I'm looking for!

For the record, I have had 2 different mechanics look at my block, and they couldn't tell me for sure one way or another because they didn't possess enough knowledge on the particular issue. I need to find someone who has spent several years working on blocks and is very familiar with the saddles and just exactly what this damage could potentially do. The only reason I'm even bothering asking about this is because its not one of the main internal bearing saddles and it doesn't have the oil galleys that the others do. This leads me to think that maybe the small amount of damage could be fairly insignificant on this particular saddle, where as it would be much more of a problem if it were on one of the other saddles, which both mechanics I had look at it agreed that it COULD be possible. Basically, I'm not gonna trash my block until I know 100% FOR SURE that I will need to. If it's going to cause a problem, then yes, I will definitely get another block. Like I said tho, I want that based off of facts, not opinions!
 

GReddyTalon

Supporting Member
61
42
Feb 7, 2005
San Diego and Vancouver, BC_Canada
My advice would be not to rush it. Doesn't seem like the car is a daily driver so I don't understand why you're in such a hurry.

If you can't afford it, wait it out till you can afford it and source a better block. Simple.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,270
5,063
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
I've built motors for over 40 years. All makes and models. You got my opinion. Find out WHAT did it before anything else.
 

Vegas Smith

Proven Member
4,890
2,741
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
I think the easiest answer is to simply take your your block to a machine shop. They’re literal professionals that can give you reliable information.
 

DogWhistle

Supporting VIP
831
356
Sep 13, 2012
St. Paul, Minnesota
Last, I am not only wanting to hearva certain answer, what I am wanting is for a professional, certified mechanic, who has vast knowledge of the block and the bearing saddles, to tell me if they believe this can or will cause any issues.....not just DSM guys opinions. I can get opinions all damn day, but thats not what I'm looking for!

For the record, I have had 2 different mechanics look at my block, and they couldn't tell me for sure one way or another because they didn't possess enough knowledge on the particular issue. I need to find someone who has spent several years working on blocks and is very familiar with the saddles and just exactly what this damage could potentially do. ...
...Like I said tho, I want that based off of facts, not opinions!

You DO realize that it is still an opinion even when it is an experienced engine builder you will be talking to, right? He's probably going to error on the cautious side because with damage like that, it puts doubt into your engine's foundation.

Have you contacted MAPerformance yet?
 

LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
You DO realize that it is still an opinion even when it is an experienced engine builder you will be talking to, right? He's probably going to error on the cautious side because with damage like that, it puts doubt into your engine's foundation.

Have you contacted MAPerformance yet?
I fully understand that it would still be an opinion! I suppose I should have said "a very educated opinion"! Everybody on this thread, please understand that even I think I am most likely going to have to replace this block! Again, I am just looking for somebody who really knows their sh*t that can tell me for sure if it needs to be replaced or not, especially considering that I am not seeming to find any 2G 7 bolt blocks for under roughly $900 including shipping! If theres a possibility that I can save that money, it's definitely worth looking into, would you not agree?! Lets put it this way.....I pretty much already know my fate on this.....I'm just hoping for friggin once that I might get lucky by some chance in hell! Haha!
 

LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
I've built motors for over 40 years. All makes and models. You got my opinion. Find out WHAT did it before anything else.
Ok, see I didn't know that man! Either I missed ot or you didn't tell me how much experience you had with the blocks! If I missed it then I apologize! In that case, it looks like I'm searching for a new block! Knowing what I know now, I really appreciate your advice! Sorry about the confusion, thats my bad! So.....do you or anybody here know of anybody getting rid of a 2G style 7 bolt thats in good shape?! Please let me know if you do, I'll have to figure out the funds, but I can make it happen one way or another!
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,125
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Ok, see I didn't know that man! Either I missed ot or you didn't tell me how much experience you had with the blocks! If I missed it then I apologize! In that case, it looks like I'm searching for a new block! Knowing what I know now, I really appreciate your advice! Sorry about the confusion, thats my bad! So.....do you or anybody here know of anybody getting rid of a 2G style 7 bolt thats in good shape?! Please let me know if you do, I'll have to figure out the funds, but I can make it happen one way or another!
I don't have one but have you considered a 1g 7 bolt?
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,434
1,267
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
Yes, a bearing goes there. That looks like it was rusty and cleaned up or something. I Don't think it will really affect anything, but it depends on how much material is missing and would likely run it if I did't have a better block. But my professional advice is that it needs to be checked for round. The quickest way is to have it line honed. If it cleans up all good, if not find a block. It could be saved but it's more work, needs caps cut and line bored. if you really think you are going to make 750-1000 hp you need to have a professional assemble the engine and and they place tune it as well. You don't have the tools needed to inspect and measure the block to make sure it is right. Also be prepared for the the block to be rejected by a professional engine builder. They have a reputation and warranty to uphold, and can't take chances. I'd also make sure whoever builds it can tune the setup as well. There are way to many cases of engine from xxx and yyy tunes it and it blows up. Then you are stuck in the middle of xxx and yyy finger pointing. If xxx does it all, there can be no finger pointing.

Sell the 100mm crank and the pistons. The 100mm crank and turbo tuffs is a bad combination for bearing life and clearancing - you'll have to grind the f*** out of the block to make the rods clear. It's also really bad for cylinder wall life, plan on filling the block if you have to build a 2.3. It'll crack cylinder walls at the power you want to make.

Get a 88mm crank and 8.5:1 pistons for a 88mm stroke. I like JE myself, but have to upgrade the pins to 0.210" wall. CP full rounds look decent, but gotta detail valve relief. Make sure you have the piston to valve clearance checked. If you have a "built" head with big valves most pistons need the reliefs cut bigger for clearance.

You could also sell your crank and rods, and buy a 88mm crank and 156mm long rods, but then depending on the piston you may have a really low compression ratio.

Don't waste your time with long rod 4g64 shit. It's for fanbois and dreamers. If they were good every fast car would run them - instead no fast guys run that combo.

I've run JE full rounds, turbotuffs and stock 6 bolt cranks for years. Mine makes 800+ at the crank. The rods and pistons last forever. The crank cracks in the #4 rod journal about every other season. Was running a fluidampr, switched to an ATI, so we will see if that helps. I think it was due to my clutch/flywheel damper choice, but idk very hard to prove 100%.
 
Last edited:

LSM

Proven Member
99
13
Mar 25, 2018
Phoenix, Arizona
I don't have one but have you considered a 1g 7 bolt?
Well, I figured I would try to find a block thats closest to the '99 year as possible, simply because typically, less age, less wear and tear ya know.....at least in most cases! It might be something I can look into though, definitely not completely against it!

Yes, a bearing goes there. That looks like it was rusty and cleaned up or something. I Don't think it will really affect anything, but it depends on how much material is missing and would likely run it if I did't have a better block. But my professional advice is that it needs to be checked for round. The quickest way is to have it line honed. If it cleans up all good, if not find a block. It could be saved but it's more work, needs caps cut and line bored. if you really think you are going to make 750-1000 hp you need to have a professional assemble the engine and and they place tune it as well. You don't have the tools needed to inspect and measure the block to make sure it is right. Also be prepared for the the block to be rejected by a professional engine builder. They have a reputation and warranty to uphold, and can't take chances. I'd also make sure whoever builds it can tune the setup as well. There are way to many cases of engine from xxx and yyy tunes it and it blows up. Then you are stuck in the middle of xxx and yyy finger pointing. If xxx does it all, there can be no finger pointing.

Sell the 100mm crank and the pistons. The 100mm crank and turbo tuffs is a bad combination for bearing life and clearancing - you'll have to grind the f*** out of the block to make the rods clear. It's also really bad for cylinder wall life, plan on filling the block if you have to build a 2.3. It'll crack cylinder walls at the power you want to make.

Get a 88mm crank and 8.5:1 pistons for a 88mm stroke. I like JE myself, but have to upgrade the pins to 0.210" wall. CP full rounds look decent, but gotta detail valve relief. Make sure you have the piston to valve clearance checked. If you have a "built" head with big valves most pistons need the reliefs cut bigger for clearance.

You could also sell your crank and rods, and buy a 88mm crank and 156mm long rods, but then depending on the piston you may have a really low compression ratio.

Don't waste your time with long rod 4g64 shit. It's for fanbois and dreamers. If they were good every fast car would run them - instead no fast guys run that combo.

I've run JE full rounds, turbotuffs and stock 6 bolt cranks for years. Mine makes 800+ at the crank. The rods and pistons last forever. The crank cracks in the #4 rod journal about every other season. Was running a fluidampr, switched to an ATI, so we will see if that helps. I think it was due to my clutch/flywheel damper choice, but idk very hard to prove 100%.
Thank you very much for all of your advice there! Yeah, I think I will take it and have it checked to see exactly how deep the damage has eaten into the saddle. I can just barely feel it with my finger, but I can in fact feel it. See, and thats kind of what I was thinking.....if it's very minimal erosion, and also being on the one bearing saddle that doesn't appear to place a ton of precision and lubrication importance (By that I mean as opposed to the other bearing saddles in the block! I know that is still very important, just maybe not quite as important considering this particular saddle doesn'thave the oul galleys that the others do), that is why I was questioning weather I could spare this block or not! I will definitely take it and have it inspected for round, thank you for that advice!

Damnit.....is it really that bad of a combination?! Again, I fully understand that this setup will put more tension on the rods and also the cylinder walls, and I know that the components will wear out faster with this setup.....but let me ask you this. Now of course I'm not going to drop all of this money and time into this vehicle and never stomp on the gas pedal, but to be fully honest, I'm not one of those guys that will constantly drive like an ass and constantly be smashing the gas pedal, just because I have a lot of horsepower! When its done, I will most likely drive it more often than my other current vehicle, but that would consist of some "spiritedl" driving sometimes, but for the most part, I don't need to be racking up speeding tickets! Yes, if I occasionally were to pull up next to some jackass.....for example, here in Arizona its currently all of the Dodge Charger Hellcat guys who seem to think that their car is the fastest, most bad ass vehicle to ever roll of of the production line......so I definitely won't mind embarrassing the crap out of some people like that in front of their buddies every now and then haha! But like I said, a good 95% of the time or more, it won't be driven very hard. Also, as far as the nitrous goes, that would not be used very often at all. I would mostly only ever use it at the strip! Once again yes, a handful of times on the street just for fun, but not very often at all! I figured that I would be able to get a decent amount of life out of the setup with all of the above being said, would you disagree with that? I've always thought the 2.3L setup would be pretty fun and bad ass, and I would love to stick with it! But I also don't want to be replacing short block components left and right either, nor do I want to have to pay to constantly replace parts!

And yes, not only do I not have the proper tools for checking gaps and clearances and what-not, but I don't have enough proper knowledge to reassemble the short block myself! It is 100% being done through a shop! I was able to find a VERY reputable shop here in Phoenix, and after doing some research, these guys really seem to do everything 100% the correct ways! They appear to be highly professional, have a ridiculous amount of great customer reviews, and they've been around for many, many years! Unfortunately, they do not tune the vehicles from what I understand. I do have a good friend who knows a guy here in town who is supposedly incredibly good with tuning. I know exactly what youre thinking when you read that last part hahaha! Everybody thinks they have a buddy who is a master at something, but doesn't know crap! If you knew my friend, how INSANELY anal he is with things like this, and how many years I've had to listen to him complain and call people all sorts of things for doing a cheap or half assed repair or bandaid, if there is one thing I am sure of, it's that if he tells me the guy he knows is good at tuning, then the dude is going to be damn good at tuning, and most importantly, tuning the car CORRECTLY! Besides the shop and my firends friend for tuning, the only shop in my area that I am aware of who does both the rebuilding and the tuning would be DynoComp. I seriously hesitate to use them though because I know that about 10-15 years ago, they had been doing some supposedly shoddy, or at least questionable work, on a large number of vehicles. From what I've heard, they apparently have gotten their crap together and are quite reputable these days, but they are also a bit on the pricey side compared to the majority of other shops. I fully understand what you're saying about the potential problems with using 2 different companies/people for each thing, but I'm not too sure that I have a whole lot of choices with that. One thing I can assure you of is that with the money and time I have put into the car up to now, I am able to provide very detailed information on everything that is being or has been replaced/upgraded, and whoever I have do the tuning is going to get every bit of information that they will need to tune the car properly! I will make damn sure of that if it's the least I can do!

Lastly, I don't know man.....the other stroker setups just don't interest me very much! I'm not really the type of person who wants to be able to wrap out my tachometer to some insane rpm or anything like that, I just want to be able to push the pedal and feel the effin power as fast as possible ya know! Thats the other reason why I chose the 2.3L setup, it seems like ot would probably reduce turbo lag better than most other stroker setups, if not all of them! Of course I have also implimented several things in the build that will make the turbo spool quicker as well. I just hate the though of having a giant turbo that will create some crazy arse power.....once I hit 5,500rps! Hahaha! By the time I spool up off the line, other dude probably already won the race! But yeah, I'm not interested in the long rod stroker, or really any other stroker type for the DSM to be honest....I just wanted to have that 4G63 with the bit of extra umph from the little bit of extra displacement, and be able to enjoy it for a good while! You're crushing my dreams man hahaha! Im curious to see what you think as far as longevity when you consider how the car will be driven on a regular basis. Please let me know when you get a chance to reply! Oh, and sorry for suck an incredibly long reply, I just had a lot to answer haha! Thanks again for your advice, especially coming from experience, and I will look for your reply! Have a great weekend! 🤘😝🤘
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,434
1,267
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
The problem with a 2.3 is that it makes more torque - besides the cylinder wall issues. We only have a 9" clutch and a trans rated for 280ft*lbs. In theory the 2.3 is a great idea, but in actuality the slight gain in spool up isn't worth the loss in rpm potential. A bunch of the fast guys tried 2.3's and they are all back on 2.0's now. They are probably pretty sweet for a mid power car, but for big power it's not a good idea. You picked the wrong platform if you want to make a ton of power without revving it high. Even a mild 6262 setup is 9000rpm realistically.
 
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