Need opinions/thoughts: 1993 Eagle Talon AWD in SCCA T1 club racing

[NordicSaab]

Hey all,

I've been lurking on here for a number of years now because my talon was every really a high priority with all the cars I have. Recently I pulled it out of storage and are going through and upgrading most every system (I'll post a profile at some point when work is complete). I was looking through the SCCA club racing rules and my car would most appropriately be classed in T1 based upon its modifications.

I would not be required to run a restrictor plate because DSM, for whatever reason, are exempt... The car will be sitting on full coil overs, 10 pt cage, fia seat, and about 520 crank HP based upon my experience and what is being done to it.

The question is will is car be able to hold its own against corvette, viper, Ferrari, and GTR on a road course? The class is currently dominated by the new corvette. Mind you most of those cars will be running restrictors and I will not. Generally HP is capped somewhere around 450 based upon the size of the restrictors required. To give you an idea a GTR must run a 27mm restrictors on both intakes. All cars run slicks.

I have track dayed the car, but as many of you know that is a non-competitive forum. T1 is a very different story...

I would love thoughts from anyone with track experience with these cars.

Thanks

 

[Black95TSIawd]

Power, braking, and suspension shouldn't be too much of an issue. Sounds like you have the budget for that. The issue will be holding the trans together.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

That's mighty competition, but if you can manage to run their pace in a cheap old DSM, that would be soooooo rewarding.

Have you compared your lap times to what the front runners in T1 run? Running the same tires?

 

[NordicSaab]

I haven't driven the car in 2 years! Lol

Also, the car will be very different than it was when I ran it last. I've been doing mainly spec ford the past few years and have done well, but the long straights are so boring in a 120hp car.

When I track the car I had no problem passing corvettes. Even the fastest cars were less than a second off my times at Sebring...

The main thing I am trying to figure out now is tires. I can't cut the fenders, but trying to get 285/18 under all 4 corners. Corvettes run 315 in the back and 295 up front. As most of you know tires are everything.

 

[cait sith]

You are going to be in for a really large uphill battle that isn't worth it IMHO.

520 crank HP is going to be a challenge to keep cool with these cars. RRE had a hard enough time with a 16G on their old 1G GST, although to be fair, they were in the middle of California/Mexico heat. Transmission isn't really an issue to keep together on a road course car other than keeping it cool.

T1 is a lot of big gun cars that have had A LOT more money+development than any DSM has ever had. Competing against Z06 Corvettes and SRT10 Vipers is way beyond the old 1G DSM chassis in all reality. Unless you have a lot of money to burn, or the car is already prepped, I'd buy a used SCCA T2 EVO 8 that has been setup with some Penskes + Chip + exhaust and hold on tight if you really want to run Mitsubishi.

If you just want to be a turtle and run for fun, and pray for rain every race, sure you can do it, but I think there's better ways to spend one's time and money.

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but handwaving over building a 20+ year old platform into taking on a C6 or C7 Corvette/Viper/NSX by giving some power figures/an FIA Seat (So uh, a Recaro SPG ok?) is a bit naive.

 

[lewishamilton]

Why not do it? With the 1g/2g DSM platform being ~25 years old I think it would be great to push its limits. If he has the money and the know how what is there to lose? If he's unrestricted and can get a leg up on the competition power-wise he might be able to at least keep up if the suspension/braking/transmission/cooling/reliability are in order.

All I ask is please get a go pro and a youtube account and keep us updated.

 

[NordicSaab]

Thank you all for the replies (except for cait sith). The car is close to being ready for Dyno tuning and will soon head to the cage shop to add additional bracing to the existing cage.

In regard to the Go Pro request, I will certainly make it happen. This isn't as much a journey about wanting to be the absolute fastest on the track as much as it is enjoying the DSM for everything it has the ability to be...

I have contracted BC about a custom set of coil overs for the car and will be adding them shortly. I will keep you posted as things develop and post pictures soon.

 

[arrowhead]

Maybe a little rough statement from cait but the most honest.

 

[ACM]

I run Solo 2, and whilst not the same as road race, still - the C5 Z06 is a remarkable vehicle - stock. never mind modified. Remarkable - kudos for the Chevy engineers that decided to copy the RX7.

It's an incredibly tall order for anyone to equal the Z06 - including even Porsche.

That said, if you are allowed to move suspension pickups around in your class, it is conceivable that such a target is attainable - but you certainly have your work cut out for you !

I run Solo2 in ESP with my 2G, so I am a complete believer in the uphill struggle and the unattainable goal
Sometimes the journey is more important. But you have to accept that up front.

Charles

 

[cait sith]

Charles: The problem with a DSM in road racing environment and making big power (especially that magic 520 hp), is going to be heat management, which isn't really a problem with Autocross/Drag/even Time Trial. The only way I could see reaching that kind of power would be possibly with a two stage boost controller/multimapped ECU a la the old 2G Archer Brothers Talon.

NordicSaab: You asked for opinions. I honestly think you're going to turtle until the cows come home ("Custom" BC Coilovers (to be frank, complete junk) when your competition is running Penske shocks that cost more than most DSMs are worth?) and it's going to be a very expensive, unreliable car that isn't very fast compared to the competition.

You say you ran a Formula Ford? Did you ever actually look at what some of the other cars were running in the paddock? What chassis did you run in Formula Ford? I'm curious. Did you ever stick around for the Touring classes, or pay attention to how Z06s would gobble down EVOs and STi's for breakfast? If you didn't, I did. This is why I am very suspicious of your plans. A SRT10 Viper is even faster than a Z06 on the track and they are THE CAR to have for T1.

I'm all about an uphill battle, which is why I still even have one of these cars, but I can recognize when you're taking a knife to a gunfight.

Honestly if I was going to run a DSM in SCCA, I'd throw it into ITE rather than T1, and use the old SCCA World Challenge rules and build the car like an Archer Bros. car.

 

[NordicSaab]

Cait, why are you so hateful? We are all here because of a interest in a common car and it seems you are bashing for no reason and without any knowledge or insight...

To answer you questions I do spec ford, not formula ford, and I'm running a generation 3 engine. As you would know, if you were associated with scca in any capacity, this is a spec series where the cars are identical. There are no different chassis models to speak of, most everything is identical.

As far as running it in T1, be aware that T1 and GT1 are very different. The corvettes in T1 are basically stock. Also, the viper runs such a small restrictors plate the Corvette is THE CAR to have in T1,as it has won the challenge for the past 5 years straight. I never claimed I was going to dominate the class, but it will be a fun experience. As far as being suspicious, I'm not really sure why you would say that? Suspicious I own a DSM? Suspicious I race?

I don't get it... This is part of the reason the DSM community has a bad reputation...it seems like there are way too many people interested in tearing down and fault finding ideas.

To be fair I did ask for opinions, and I received those.

 

[ACM]

Cait, I know the problems he faces - I may only run Solo2 now, but that wasn't always the case. My point was that if you have to go up against the Z06, you have an incredibly difficult task ahead of you - restrict it all you want, it will still run rings around almost anything ! I'm actually thinking that cooling will be one of the least challenging jobs

NordicSaab - Cait isn't being hateful, he's telling you the simple truth, albeit a little pointedly.

But like I said, sometimes the journey's more important than the destination.

 

[arrowhead]

Nordic, you are in Tampa, guess, if you are planning on road racing you would be going mostly to Sebring, with the Central Region or PBIR with the Southeastern Region, competition in either class mentioned before in the regional races is very poor, and Palm Beach facilities stink.
In the class you are trying to run and your experience with this car being only on track days you can not really expect to perform the same against these same cars but prepared for competition.
The DSM platform takes a lot of changes to get it competitive, most SCCA races are 30 minute sprints, so keep that in mind.
You will not be competitive, look at SCCA records in these classes in National runoffs and you will see what I mean. Look up MYLAPS and compare your times.

I am not trying to discourage you, as I am also building a road race car, but going by FARA USA rules,
look them up.
The car would fall in MP2B, where I think it would be more competitive, even if some Evos and Subarus have come and not done much

The drive for you would be a couple of more hours but I think it would be worth it.
We race at Homested and race about every other month, which is more than enough for me at least.

Look up FARA USA to get a better idea of the program and I am sure you will be impress.

It is really a top notch program.

Come on down for the next race and see for yourself, if you decide to come down , hit me up.

 

[NordicSaab]

Hey Arrowhead,

Thanks for the reply. I was not aware of FARA but it looks like a great compromise. Seems like the classing will be much more favorable than that of SCCA.

When I initially reviewed the SCCA rules it was not my intent to run in one of the most extreme classes. However, each class seemed to have some rule that excluded my car. SCCA does not look at turbo swaps very favorably...

Anyway, thank you for bringing FARA to my attention. I looked up the events and there is one in August. It is about a 4 hour drive, but not too bad. I wish there was more information on the website. I may have to just come down for the day at the August event and register for the following.
Definitely worth a try.

 

[arrowhead]

Hey Arrowhead,

Thanks for the reply. I was not aware of FARA but it looks like a great compromise. Seems like the classing will be much more favorable than that of SCCA.

When I initially reviewed the SCCA rules it was not my intent to run in one of the most extreme classes. However, each class seemed to have some rule that excluded my car. SCCA does not look at turbo swaps very favorably...

Anyway, thank you for bringing FARA to my attention. I looked up the events and there is one in August. It is about a 4 hour drive, but not too bad. I wish there was more information on the website. I may have to just come down for the day at the August event and register for the following.
Definitely worth a try.

What would you like to know?
All racing rules, except for the classes, follow what every other sanctioning bodies require, rollcage, safety net, fire ext, rules of the road, no nitrous, etc, it is all in the website, sign up to receive their emails and info.

If you have any questions, please let me know, I am sure I have the answer for you.